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Why Atheists Get the Idea of "Faith" Wrong

Scientists often disagree, of course.
But rarely about the fundamentals. Einstein disagreed with Newton, but he didn't claim that rocks really fall upwards.
Quite the contrary! Einstein made sure that his general relativity reduced to Newton’s formulae in the non-relativistic regime. If it hadn’t he would have considered his new theory incorrect.
That's what I just said. Rocks really don't fall upwards; If Relativity had predicted that they would, it would have been wrong.
Sure, sure. I just prickle at the suggestions often repeated that “Einstein proved Newton wrong” and variations of that. Usually said by people who either don’t understand physics or can’t explain it well if they do understand.

No dig on you intended, Bilby.
 
Scientists often disagree, of course.
But rarely about the fundamentals. Einstein disagreed with Newton, but he didn't claim that rocks really fall upwards.
Quite the contrary! Einstein made sure that his general relativity reduced to Newton’s formulae in the non-relativistic regime. If it hadn’t he would have considered his new theory incorrect.
That's what I just said. Rocks really don't fall upwards; If Relativity had predicted that they would, it would have been wrong.
Sure, sure. I just prickle at the suggestions often repeated that “Einstein proved Newton wrong” and variations of that. Usually said by people who either don’t understand physics or can’t explain it well if they do understand.

No dig on you intended, Bilby.
Ultimately, it's almost unheard of for any well tested hypothesis to be "proven wrong"; Even such parochial claims as "what goes up, must come down", or "if you don't apply a force to a moving object, it will slow down and stop" are not so much proven false, as they are proven to be locally true due to local conditions.

Physics replaces these local truths with more universally applicable truths, but the new explanations always include the old observations; What goes up at less than escape velocity must come down; If you don't apply a force to counter any environmental frictional forces to a moving object, it will slow down and stop relative to the environment from which the frictional forces are coming.

Einstein's new description of how gravity works showed Newton to be wrong, but only in ways that were undetectable by the techniques available to Newton, and only measurably so in circumstances that are rarely observed or encountered by humans, such as the precise orbit of Mercury around the (both nearby and massive) Sun.

Oh, and occasionally small rocks have started falling upwards, but only since 1914, so lots of people haven't noticed yet. ;)
 
Scientists often disagree, of course.
But rarely about the fundamentals. Einstein disagreed with Newton, but he didn't claim that rocks really fall upwards.
Quite the contrary! Einstein made sure that his general relativity reduced to Newton’s formulae in the non-relativistic regime. If it hadn’t he would have considered his new theory incorrect.
That's what I just said. Rocks really don't fall upwards; If Relativity had predicted that they would, it would have been wrong.
Sure, sure. I just prickle at the suggestions often repeated that “Einstein proved Newton wrong” and variations of that. Usually said by people who either don’t understand physics or can’t explain it well if they do understand.

No dig on you intended, Bilby.
Ultimately, it's almost unheard of for any well tested hypothesis to be "proven wrong"; Even such parochial claims as "what goes up, must come down", or "if you don't apply a force to a moving object, it will slow down and stop" are not so much proven false, as they are proven to be locally true due to local conditions.

Physics replaces these local truths with more universally applicable truths, but the new explanations always include the old observations; What goes up at less than escape velocity must come down; If you don't apply a force to counter any environmental frictional forces to a moving object, it will slow down and stop relative to the environment from which the frictional forces are coming.

Einstein's new description of how gravity works showed Newton to be wrong, but only in ways that were undetectable by the techniques available to Newton, and only measurably so in circumstances that are rarely observed or encountered by humans, such as the precise orbit of Mercury around the (both nearby and massive) Sun.

Oh, and occasionally small rocks have started falling upwards, but only since 1914, so lots of people haven't noticed yet. ;)
I understand what you’re saying here but I still think the word “wrong” does a disservice to what’s going on in the physics. But that’s just because I’ve spent a lot of time actually studying and thinking about physics.
 
It is always interesting that people who see nothing unusual about meters, kilograms, seconds, and velocity get mystical and spacey when it comes to energy.

It must be the saturation with scifi that uses energy as a plot device.

One of the few philosophers I got something useful from was Popper.

He used the term instrumentalist, meaning the only thing we know objectively is an experiment. As the sphere expands around the experiment it becomes progressively subjective. Interpretation ad inference.
 
That cloks will have different elapsed times based on relative acceleration, time dilation, is an established experimental fact. What that infers on the nature of reality is speculation. Time dilation is the source of many scifi speculations.
That's incorrect. Time dilation tells us that if person is in a frame of reference moving close to the speed of light and another person is in a frame of reference moving relatively slowly, then time will pass measurably more slowly for the person in the frame of reference moving near the speed of light. That's not speculation.
 
That cloks will have different elapsed times based on relative acceleration, time dilation, is an established experimental fact. What that infers on the nature of reality is speculation. Time dilation is the source of many scifi speculations.
That's incorrect. Time dilation tells us that if person is in a frame of reference moving close to the speed of light and another person is in a frame of reference moving relatively slowly, then time will pass measurably more slowly for the person in the frame of reference moving near the speed of light. That's not speculation.
As I said don't embarrass yourself.

It does not have to be relativistic speeds. And as I said time dilation is not speculation, it is experimentally demonstrated. Read the first link. What tme dilation infers as to the nature of relity is speculation, which is what I said.

Also demonstrating tie dilation with macro scale size clocks is currently theoretically impossible. Per the equation in the limit as velocity --> C the required energy goes to infinity, a singularity.

Small particles in an accelerator can get to high percentages of C.

There are faster than light theories but I think they all end up with energy issues.

There is also gravitational time dilation. Technically people living on a high mountain are aging at a different rate than those at sea level.


GPS has to account for time dilation between satellites and the ground. Without compensation GPS would not work. Common knowledge in technology.


As I said for most of my adult life I was immersed in science and its applications.
 
That cloks will have different elapsed times based on relative acceleration, time dilation, is an established experimental fact. What that infers on the nature of reality is speculation. Time dilation is the source of many scifi speculations.
That's incorrect. Time dilation tells us that if person is in a frame of reference moving close to the speed of light and another person is in a frame of reference moving relatively slowly, then time will pass measurably more slowly for the person in the frame of reference moving near the speed of light. That's not speculation.
As I said don't embarrass yourself.

It does not have to be relativistic speeds. And as I said time dilation is not speculation, it is experimentally demonstrated. Read the first link. What tme dilation infers as to the nature of relity is speculation, which is what I said.

Also demonstrating tie dilation with macro scale size clocks is currently theoretically impossible. Per the equation in the limit as velocity --> C the required energy goes to infinity, a singularity.

Small particles in an accelerator can get to high percentages of C.

There are faster than light theories but I think they all end up with energy issues.

There is also gravitational time dilation. Technically people living on a high mountain are aging at a different rate than those at sea level.


GPS has to account for time dilation between satellites and the ground. Without compensation GPS would not work. Common knowledge in technology.


As I said for most of my adult life I was immersed in science and its applications.
What have you really done? I don't see how anybody who thinks energy is a unit and who can barely read or write can be an engineer.
 
My guess is you were unable to read and comprehend the links on time dilation I posted.

You seemed to conflate time dilation with relativistic mechanics, porabaly from bits and pieces you read on the net.

Along wit meters, kilograms, and seconds the Joule is the international standard unit of measure of energy. You conflate philosophy and metaphysics with science. Modern science replaced 19th century metaphysics and Natural Philosophyin part because it is based on an unabiguus set of definitions, Systems International which defines units of energy.

Kilograms, myers, seconds and Joules as a unit of energy are standard.


joule, unit of work or energy in the International System of Units (SI); it is equal to the work done by a force of one newton acting through one metre. Named in honour of the English physicist James Prescott Joule, it equals 107 ergs, or approximately 0.7377 foot-pounds. In electrical terms, the joule equals one watt-second—i.e., the energy released in one second by a current of one ampere through a resistance of one ohm.



You brought up enrgy saying in one of your usupported generalizations 'scientists say they don't know what energy is'.

Energy takes different forms. Your electric bill is based on the number of Joules of electric energy you consume. A compressed spring stores mechanical energy measured in Jules. Falling water has gravitaional energy in Joules and is converted to electrcal enrgy by turning a turbine..

Off topic. Post in the philosophy thread I started if you want to continue. 'What energy is?' is philosophy and metaphysics.

Whatever energy is, you are payng for it when your computer is on..hee hee heee haw haw haw.
 
What have you really done? I don't see how anybody who thinks energy is a unit and who can barely read or write can be an engineer.
I think he mentions he has poor eyesight in the stuff under his name?

Maybe the better question is, what have you really done? One thing you’ve finally admitted that you haven’t done, is any kind of systematic study on how religious people view faith and how non-theists think theists view evidence and faith — no study at all about the very thing you chose to expound upon in starting this thread.
 
What have you really done? I don't see how anybody who thinks energy is a unit and who can barely read or write can be an engineer.
I think he mentions he has poor eyesight in the stuff under his name?
Why would that make him mistake energy for units?
Maybe the better question is, what have you really done?
See the attached photocopy of my college diploma. Note that I graduated "Summa Cum Laude" which in English is "with highest honors." I earned a perfect 4.0 GPA. It proves my outstanding ability to learn and know. I don't expect you to recognize that fact, of course.
One thing you’ve finally admitted that you haven’t done, is any kind of systematic study on how religious people view faith and how non-theists think theists view evidence and faith — no study at all about the very thing you chose to expound upon in starting this thread.
That's a non sequitur. Just because I've done no "systematic study" on religious faith, it doesn't follow that I've done no study at all on the subject although I understand why you deny it. Are you hoping to set the bar high enough that I can't jump it?
 

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What have you really done? I don't see how anybody who thinks energy is a unit and who can barely read or write can be an engineer.
I think he mentions he has poor eyesight in the stuff under his name?
Why would that make him mistake energy for units?
Maybe the better question is, what have you really done?
See the attached photocopy of my college diploma. Note that I graduated "Summa Cum Laude" which in English is "with highest honors." I earned a perfect 4.0 GPA. It proves my outstanding ability to learn and know. I don't expect you to recognize that fact, of course.
I do note the degree is not in physics, though.
 
OMG, it finally materialized: a thread with GPAs.
Click on the link below to see my counselor's assessment from Boy Scout Camp in 1962. You'll see that I was described as 'helpful', 'good with scouting skills', 'has keen eye for nature' and 'kept underwear clean'. I assure you, these are skills I've maintained, and they help me run a tight ship on the polemics front.

<link>

(Link may not be active in all states.)
 
Maybe the better question is, what have you really done?
See the attached photocopy of my college diploma. Note that I graduated "Summa Cum Laude" which in English is "with highest honors." I earned a perfect 4.0 GPA. It proves my outstanding ability to learn and know. I don't expect you to recognize that fact, of course.
I do note the degree is not in physics, though.
While I was at The Pennsylvania College Of Technology I took courses in science including astronomy, environmental science, and yes, physics too. I earned A's in all those courses.
 
Maybe the better question is, what have you really done?
See the attached photocopy of my college diploma. Note that I graduated "Summa Cum Laude" which in English is "with highest honors." I earned a perfect 4.0 GPA. It proves my outstanding ability to learn and know. I don't expect you to recognize that fact, of course.
I do note the degree is not in physics, though.
While I was at The Pennsylvania College Of Technology I took courses in science including astronomy, environmental science, and yes, physics too. I earned A's in all those courses.
Good for you.
 
Maybe the better question is, what have you really done?
See the attached photocopy of my college diploma. Note that I graduated "Summa Cum Laude" which in English is "with highest honors." I earned a perfect 4.0 GPA. It proves my outstanding ability to learn and know. I don't expect you to recognize that fact, of course.
I do note the degree is not in physics, though.
While I was at The Pennsylvania College Of Technology I took courses in science including astronomy, environmental science, and yes, physics too. I earned A's in all those courses.
Good for you.
Did you read the question I was asked? I answered it and provided proof that my answer is true. I decided to set an example for others here regarding how to work hard to learn and respect the truth. I think that lesson needed to be taught.
 
Did you read the question I was asked? I answered it and provided proof that my answer is true. I decided to set an example for others here regarding how to work hard to learn and respect the truth. I think that lesson needed to be taught.

Just not to anyone here.
 
How complicated is this issue?

If we believe something without the support of evidence, be it God, gods, ideology, politics, winning the lotto.....we call this form of belief 'faith.'

That what we believe is an article of faith, ie, a belief held without the support of evidence.
 
Maybe the better question is, what have you really done?
See the attached photocopy of my college diploma. Note that I graduated "Summa Cum Laude" which in English is "with highest honors." I earned a perfect 4.0 GPA. It proves my outstanding ability to learn and know. I don't expect you to recognize that fact, of course.
I do note the degree is not in physics, though.
While I was at The Pennsylvania College Of Technology I took courses in science including astronomy, environmental science, and yes, physics too. I earned A's in all those courses.
Good for you.
Did you read the question I was asked? I answered it and provided proof that my answer is true. I decided to set an example for others here regarding how to work hard to learn and respect the truth. I think that lesson needed to be taught.
Yes. Congratulations on your business degree and high GPA. You should be proud of that. I’m not saying otherwise.
 
Argument from credentials, I have a college degree therefore I am right. Golly, haven;t heard that one before.

A lot of people get engineering and science degrees, and a lot of them can't figure out how to do engineering and science. A guy who was hired to run a group I was in at Lockheed had undergrad degrees in math and engineering, and masters in business and optics. He was clueless.

Posting a transcript sounds like a desperate cry for attention.
 
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