Why can't theists accept that atheist exist?

[Barbarian]

The whole "well you just hate god, want to live a life of sin" crap is mostly a divide between mainstream Protestants and fundagelicals.

I get it a lot from Catholics, too. The most famous quips about the same sentiment come from G. K. Chesterton, a Catholic. But I've also had my first Orthodox tell me so years ago. It's amazing how happy they are to share it with me despite being about the most offensive thing they can come up with.

It's a general Christian thing.

 

[funinspace]

The whole "well you just hate god, want to live a life of sin" crap is mostly a divide between mainstream Protestants and fundagelicals.

I get it a lot from Catholics, too. The most famous quips about the same sentiment come from G. K. Chesterton, a Catholic. But I've also had my first Orthodox tell me so years ago. It's amazing how happy they are to share it with me despite being about the most offensive thing they can come up with.

It's a general Christian thing.

You have a good point, as I left out the Roman Catholics. They have their own divide, which I have no feel for, as I never have been around their circles nor have known many RCs.

 

[Malintent]

This is a trend I have noticed in a ton of theists. They say that atheists reject God, rebel against God, are unfaithful to God. It is right there in the words "Infidel" and "Kaffir" (one who rejects). What is the reason behind this?

I tell them that I can't be rejecting or rebelling against God, because I see no God to reject or rebel against. I can't be unfaithful or infidel towards something that doesn't exist... but they simply won't accept that.

Is admitting that people exist who don't believe in God a threat to their own belief?
Is it merely because the holy books and preachers say it, so they believe it?
Is it just such an alien concept to them that they are actually incapable of contemplating it?
It it to justify their hatred or prejudice towards us? They have to project that we are against them?
Is it a combination of the above?
Is it something else?

I think that this phenomena is easily explained by a simple lack of linguistic tools. They simply lack the words to express their ideas in a universe that has no god.
It may be similar to the lack of vocabulary that exists to discuss time travel (limits of past / future tenses of words), or even more commonly - the difficulty in explaining causality without invoking purpose... even Dawkins and his ilk fall into the trap of saying things like 'the ball "wants" to roll down hill'.

 

[bilby]

I think that this phenomena is easily explained by a simple lack of linguistic tools.

Such as a failure to understand that 'phenomena' is the plural of 'phenomenon'?

You can't have 'a phenomena', or 'a bacteria' any more than you can have 'a cars' or 'a sausages'.

 

[Kharakov]

I think that this phenomena is easily explained by a simple lack of linguistic tools.

Such as a failure to understand that 'phenomena' is the plural of 'phenomenon'?

You can't have 'a phenomena', or 'a bacteria' any more than you can have 'a cars' or 'a sausages'.

The Bagginses has our precious.

 

[Underseer]

This is a trend I have noticed in a ton of theists. They say that atheists reject God, rebel against God, are unfaithful to God. It is right there in the words "Infidel" and "Kaffir" (one who rejects). What is the reason behind this?

I tell them that I can't be rejecting or rebelling against God, because I see no God to reject or rebel against. I can't be unfaithful or infidel towards something that doesn't exist... but they simply won't accept that.

Is admitting that people exist who don't believe in God a threat to their own belief?
Is it merely because the holy books and preachers say it, so they believe it?
Is it just such an alien concept to them that they are actually incapable of contemplating it?
It it to justify their hatred or prejudice towards us? They have to project that we are against them?
Is it a combination of the above?
Is it something else?

I think that this phenomena is easily explained by a simple lack of linguistic tools. They simply lack the words to express their ideas in a universe that has no god.
It may be similar to the lack of vocabulary that exists to discuss time travel (limits of past / future tenses of words), or even more commonly - the difficulty in explaining causality without invoking purpose... even Dawkins and his ilk fall into the trap of saying things like 'the ball "wants" to roll down hill'.

Nah. They have a general need to demonize anyone who believes differently. Have you not noticed how many holy wars they have with each other?

 

[RCW]

Denying atheists exists is an assertion that others know our minds and we don't.

So when I hear this I simply reply "And I don't believe you either when tell me you believe in Jesus, The Bible or whatever".

 

[skepticalbip]

Denying atheists exists is an assertion that others know our minds and we don't.

So when I hear this I simply reply "And I don't believe you either when tell me you believe in Jesus, The Bible or whatever".

And then there is the old claim, "there are no atheists in foxholes". When I am told this, I explain that I have first hand experience and never called for supernatural support. The thing I was concerned with when pinned down was if air support from our gunships got there soon enough.

 

[James Brown]

"There are no believers in peacetime."

 

[Keith&Co.]

Denying atheists exists is an assertion that others know our minds and we don't.

So when I hear this I simply reply "And I don't believe you either when tell me you believe in Jesus, The Bible or whatever".

And then there is the old claim, "there are no atheists in foxholes". When I am told this, I explain that I have first hand experience and never called for supernatural support. The thing I was concerned with when pinned down was if air support from our gunships got there soon enough.

i managed to avoid foxholes, but i have seen water rushing into the people tank on the submarine and been certain we were going to die. I concentrated on providing all the assistance i could to the people with the most knowledge of the systems involved.

A shipmate claimed, later, that he'd prayed and God had saved us. I pointed out, "I was standing RIGHT BY YOU, motherfucker. You were not praying, you were saying 'Shit, shit, oh shit," just like the rest of us sinners."
He blessed me.
Sure, it SOUNDED like 'shut the fuck up!' but i'm sure it was a blessing...

 

[Underseer]

Denying atheists exists is an assertion that others know our minds and we don't.

So when I hear this I simply reply "And I don't believe you either when tell me you believe in Jesus, The Bible or whatever".

And then there is the old claim, "there are no atheists in foxholes". When I am told this, I explain that I have first hand experience and never called for supernatural support. The thing I was concerned with when pinned down was if air support from our gunships got there soon enough.

The thing that gets me about the "no atheists in foxholes" argument is that they are admitting that reason-destroying fear is the reason that many if not most believers believe.

 

[Atheos]

There are plenty of atheists in church pews on any given Sunday though.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Denying atheists exists is an assertion that others know our minds and we don't.

So when I hear this I simply reply "And I don't believe you either when tell me you believe in Jesus, The Bible or whatever".

And then there is the old claim, "there are no atheists in foxholes". When I am told this, I explain that I have first hand experience and never called for supernatural support. The thing I was concerned with when pinned down was if air support from our gunships got there soon enough.

The "no atheists in foxholes" thing has a nugget of truth to it, but it doesn't make any point about God actually existing. All it is saying is that desperate people turn to the irrational. Why should that be any surprise? People go to psychics and try to seance with the dead and do all sorts of nutty things when they are desperate enough.

As for the "theists don't exist" retort, I do think there are a lot of "theists" who pretend to be that to get along with the cultural expectations of them. I can see an atheist actually thinking they are all that way, so I guess this can run in both directions.

 

[Ramaraksha]

This is a trend I have noticed in a ton of theists. They say that atheists reject God, rebel against God, are unfaithful to God. It is right there in the words "Infidel" and "Kaffir" (one who rejects). What is the reason behind this?

I tell them that I can't be rejecting or rebelling against God, because I see no God to reject or rebel against. I can't be unfaithful or infidel towards something that doesn't exist... but they simply won't accept that.

Is admitting that people exist who don't believe in God a threat to their own belief?
Is it merely because the holy books and preachers say it, so they believe it?
Is it just such an alien concept to them that they are actually incapable of contemplating it?
It it to justify their hatred or prejudice towards us? They have to project that we are against them?
Is it a combination of the above?
Is it something else?

See - i posted a thread - Has religion Brainwashed even Atheists - and the question that was posed and the answers just proved what i was saying. Why oh why can't we look for simple logical explanations?

These religions were born when times were much different - they lived under Kings - who was the master of his land. This was no democracy - the King's word was law! A subject's quality and quantity of life depended on the King. Brought before the King, subjects/slaves got down on their knees, shaking with fear, swore undying loyalty (Belief in today's religions - "you better believe" - is the same as "you better be loyal to the king") and begged for his mercy and protection

Notice the Terminology that religion uses - Commandments, Kingdom, prince, submit, beg, mercy, wrath, Fear - ALL Slave/Servant words

The king might pardon or look away when a useful general or subject was a rapist or murderer, but a disloyal person? Even if he was a kind and gentle person? No sir, out you go or worse! Heavens of these religions are for members only! No non-members(disloyal) people allowed!

They view God as a Master - and as we know Master is always right (a Tsunami comes and killed thousands while wrecking huge damage, but a baby is saved! Slaves get down on their knees and thank the Lord for the "miracle" - simply amazing to see this)

One can serve only One Master - hence the One God - remember this is not the One God who made all of us. No Sir, this One God is just for "his" people - just like Saddam and King-Jung un or that dictator in Syria - they have "their" people who they reward, the rest get to suffer or gassed to death as the Kurds were under Saddam. We will be the Kurds - we will all be separated because of our religion or non-religion just as jews were under Hitler and will be sent off to gas chambers!

God a Hitler - they can't go any lower

Master will give them the good life - anyone not kneeling to the master must be evil and must be hated. Religion is more than happy to promote this view - the carrot of heaven and the stick of Hell - put to liberal use, drive conversions

Very, very primitive ideas coming out of medieval times - can't believe even Atheists can't see this

 

[Ramaraksha]

And then there is the old claim, "there are no atheists in foxholes". When I am told this, I explain that I have first hand experience and never called for supernatural support. The thing I was concerned with when pinned down was if air support from our gunships got there soon enough.

The "no atheists in foxholes" thing has a nugget of truth to it, but it doesn't make any point about God actually existing. All it is saying is that desperate people turn to the irrational. Why should that be any surprise? People go to psychics and try to seance with the dead and do all sorts of nutty things when they are desperate enough.

As for the "theists don't exist" retort, I do think there are a lot of "theists" who pretend to be that to get along with the cultural expectations of them. I can see an atheist actually thinking they are all that way, so I guess this can run in both directions.

Actually works for them also - have you ever seen an Theist being told that he has only a few months to live celebrating? "Ooh in just a few months i get to see God! Angels! Enjoy heaven! No more worries, ever!" - Funny that they beg, they cry, they are ready to spend their entire savings on staying alive! Keep God waiting! Keep heaven waiting!

I guess there are no Theists when death comes calling

 

[bilby]

This is a trend I have noticed in a ton of theists. They say that atheists reject God, rebel against God, are unfaithful to God. It is right there in the words "Infidel" and "Kaffir" (one who rejects). What is the reason behind this?

I tell them that I can't be rejecting or rebelling against God, because I see no God to reject or rebel against. I can't be unfaithful or infidel towards something that doesn't exist... but they simply won't accept that.

Is admitting that people exist who don't believe in God a threat to their own belief?
Is it merely because the holy books and preachers say it, so they believe it?
Is it just such an alien concept to them that they are actually incapable of contemplating it?
It it to justify their hatred or prejudice towards us? They have to project that we are against them?
Is it a combination of the above?
Is it something else?

See - i posted a thread - Has religion Brainwashed even Atheists - and the question that was posed and the answers just proved what i was saying. Why oh why can't we look for simple logical explanations?

These religions were born when times were much different - they lived under Kings - who was the master of his land. This was no democracy - the King's word was law! A subject's quality and quantity of life depended on the King. Brought before the King, subjects/slaves got down on their knees, shaking with fear, swore undying loyalty (Belief in today's religions - "you better believe" - is the same as "you better be loyal to the king") and begged for his mercy and protection

Notice the Terminology that religion uses - Commandments, Kingdom, prince, submit, beg, mercy, wrath, Fear - ALL Slave/Servant words

The king might pardon or look away when a useful general or subject was a rapist or murderer, but a disloyal person? Even if he was a kind and gentle person? No sir, out you go or worse! Heavens of these religions are for members only! No non-members(disloyal) people allowed!

They view God as a Master - and as we know Master is always right (a Tsunami comes and killed thousands while wrecking huge damage, but a baby is saved! Slaves get down on their knees and thank the Lord for the "miracle" - simply amazing to see this)

One can serve only One Master - hence the One God - remember this is not the One God who made all of us. No Sir, this One God is just for "his" people - just like Saddam and King-Jung un or that dictator in Syria - they have "their" people who they reward, the rest get to suffer or gassed to death as the Kurds were under Saddam. We will be the Kurds - we will all be separated because of our religion or non-religion just as jews were under Hitler and will be sent off to gas chambers!

God a Hitler - they can't go any lower

Master will give them the good life - anyone not kneeling to the master must be evil and must be hated. Religion is more than happy to promote this view - the carrot of heaven and the stick of Hell - put to liberal use, drive conversions

Very, very primitive ideas coming out of medieval times - can't believe even Atheists can't see this

I can't believe that you have totally missed all of the atheists saying exactly this. Your amazement at our failure to do so is misplaced.

Perhaps your next thread should be "Why don't oceanographers accept that water is wet?"

 

[Keith&Co.]

Perhaps your next thread should be "Why don't oceanographers accept that water is wet?"

Well, it IS true, I have not been able to find any peer reviewed papers discussing whether or not water is wet.

If almighty 'science' is supposed to be open to diverging views and not just a parade of idiots in dogmatic lockstep, surely SOMEONE would be offering a diverging viewpoint on that very topic, right?

 

[Ramaraksha]

See - i posted a thread - Has religion Brainwashed even Atheists - and the question that was posed and the answers just proved what i was saying. Why oh why can't we look for simple logical explanations?

These religions were born when times were much different - they lived under Kings - who was the master of his land. This was no democracy - the King's word was law! A subject's quality and quantity of life depended on the King. Brought before the King, subjects/slaves got down on their knees, shaking with fear, swore undying loyalty (Belief in today's religions - "you better believe" - is the same as "you better be loyal to the king") and begged for his mercy and protection

Notice the Terminology that religion uses - Commandments, Kingdom, prince, submit, beg, mercy, wrath, Fear - ALL Slave/Servant words

The king might pardon or look away when a useful general or subject was a rapist or murderer, but a disloyal person? Even if he was a kind and gentle person? No sir, out you go or worse! Heavens of these religions are for members only! No non-members(disloyal) people allowed!

They view God as a Master - and as we know Master is always right (a Tsunami comes and killed thousands while wrecking huge damage, but a baby is saved! Slaves get down on their knees and thank the Lord for the "miracle" - simply amazing to see this)

One can serve only One Master - hence the One God - remember this is not the One God who made all of us. No Sir, this One God is just for "his" people - just like Saddam and King-Jung un or that dictator in Syria - they have "their" people who they reward, the rest get to suffer or gassed to death as the Kurds were under Saddam. We will be the Kurds - we will all be separated because of our religion or non-religion just as jews were under Hitler and will be sent off to gas chambers!

God a Hitler - they can't go any lower

Master will give them the good life - anyone not kneeling to the master must be evil and must be hated. Religion is more than happy to promote this view - the carrot of heaven and the stick of Hell - put to liberal use, drive conversions

Very, very primitive ideas coming out of medieval times - can't believe even Atheists can't see this

I can't believe that you have totally missed all of the atheists saying exactly this. Your amazement at our failure to do so is misplaced.

Perhaps your next thread should be "Why don't oceanographers accept that water is wet?"

Can you give me some examples of such sayings please. The start of this thread didn't say it - did she miss the memo as I did according to you?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Ramaraksha,

I don't disagree with you but I don't see how what it has to do with the question I asked in the OP or the text you quoted.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Ramaraksha,

I don't disagree with you but I don't see how what it has to do with the question I asked in the OP or the text you quoted.

I will keep using the word Brainwashing then - religion has brainwashed even Atheists

I thought i was quite clear - there are rational explanations to the questions that you posed. Basically God is seen as a Master - born when Kings ruled with an iron fist, the master of his land. The Master will give us the good life(Heaven) - everyone must obey the Master, there is no room for disloyal people in the Master's kingdom - hence the threats against you, the reason why they won't accept Atheists(disloyal people), why their heavens remain segregated

Very primitive ideas born in medieval times - they didn't know any better - their ideas of God were shaped by the times they lived in - Kings ruled, you must obey the king in order to get a good life. Those that disobeyed the King were punished - that is how their life was at that time and they simply thought the same conditions applied in the after life - they didn't know any better - they had no democracy at that time, they didn't have the rights that we take for granted today

Today, you can abuse, shout and campaign against the president - nothing will happen to you. If you did that to the King back in the day, you would be jailed or worse. The Master's word is LAW and must be obeyed - if a King/Master pardons an evil person who had raped and killed innocents, there was nothing one could do and the reverse was true also - innocent people might be put to death based on Master's orders - again it was accepted, that's how life was

And so a Hell where billions of innocent Atheists, Hindus and Buddhists whose only "crime" was to have no belief or a different set of belief are punished is accepted by the majority and there is little pushback - no letters, editorials, columns, articles - none condemning such ideas

In the 21st century that is shameful - but as I said, even Atheists are brain-washed