Why didn't Jesus just stay on the cross?

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

I was just watching a video on youtube which included scenes of the crucifiction (misspelling intended). you know, the usual torture porn so many Xians like to wallow in. And a thought struck me: If God really wnated his message to get across, and convince people to believe in him ... why didn't he just leave him hanging there?

Think about it; the same guy hanging on a bit of wood for 2000 years, there for everybody to see, rather than just the relatively few people who were there at the time. If you saw him as an infant, you could go back 90 years later and see the same guy in the same condition on the same lump of wood ... what's not to believe? A living testimony to the fact that, if you don't live by God's rules, he will fuck you up bigtime and forever.

Instead, we have the mismatching stories of four men who happened to have been told the tale many years after the supposed fact and been capable of writing it down. The allegedly all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful deity ... doesn't know how to convince people.

 

[bilby]

I don't reckon the Romans would have left him up there if he didn't die; that's not quite the PR spin you are looking for when torturing people to death for sedition in full view of the public.

It's a bit inconvenient if the rebel on the cross outlives the next dozen emperors.

 

[Rhea]

I don't reckon the Romans would have left him up there if he didn't die; that's not quite the PR spin you are looking for when torturing people to death for sedition in full view of the public.

It's a bit inconvenient if the rebel on the cross outlives the next dozen emperors.

But if he's really Jesus, he can prevent them from taking him down. Zombie graves, parting seas, locusts, something. He proves his point no matter what the emperors think or want. BOOM!

 

[bilby]

I don't reckon the Romans would have left him up there if he didn't die; that's not quite the PR spin you are looking for when torturing people to death for sedition in full view of the public.

It's a bit inconvenient if the rebel on the cross outlives the next dozen emperors.

But if he's really Jesus, he can prevent them from taking him down. Zombie graves, parting seas, locusts, something. He proves his point no matter what the emperors think or want. BOOM!

If he's really Jesus, he can skip the whole 'getting crucified' bit altogether, as he is a manifestation of an omniscient God, and knows:

A) Exactly what He needs to do to persuade all mankind of the truth; and

B) That getting crucified ain't it.

 

[Kharakov]

If God really wnated his message to get across, and convince people to believe in him ... why didn't he just leave him hanging there?
...The allegedly all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful deity ... doesn't know how to convince people.

There is no great deceiver of men, who weaves tales of betrayal, triumph, and sacrifice. They could not have staged the crucifixion... or created many stories of gods and men.

 

[James Brown]

I once argued that the Ascension was where Jesus really dropped the ball. He supposedly is martyred in public, but later makes some private appearances to followers, and then exits stage left to never be seen again. Awfully convenient, that.

Instead, why not live forever? Why not continue, down through the ages, as a perpetually 30-something year old man? He could wander the world, preaching his ideas to the Chinese, the Inuits, the Incans, the Maori. Eventually documentation would establish that this is the same man that outlives us all. He could empty hospitals, end droughts, negotiate peace treaties, teach physics. If anyone did kill him, he'd be found alive a few days later, as if nothing happened. Jesus could still be alive today, confronting crooked politicians, shaming wrong-headed preachers, and encouraging stressed-out ER workers. Furthermore, he could spend as much time as anyone needs, one-on-one, to convince them that he's the real deal.

Instead, it's "I'll be back," and no one ever sees him again. Too bad, really. He could have been somebody.

 

[fast]

All beliefs through faith are beliefs, but not all beliefs are beliefs through faith. There's no point in having mere belief when the point is to have belief through faith. If God were to appear before us so that no man could reasonably deny His existence, more would believe He exists than do now, but no one would continue to believe through faith. Undeniable evidence yields the destruction of faith.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

All beliefs through faith are beliefs, but not all beliefs are beliefs through faith. There's no point in having mere belief when the point is to have belief through faith. If God were to appear before us so that no man could reasonably deny His existence, more would believe He exists than do now, but no one would continue to believe through faith. Undeniable evidence yields the destruction of faith.

How is the point to have belief through faith? Jesus walked up to the disciples and said "Hey there, I'm back". The entire point of the religion is that he offered evidentiary support for his claims of divinity. That's why we keep having all the threads by people going on about how Jesus's miracles are actually well-documented historical facts.

The whole thing about faith is a post-hoc rationalization which gets tacked on after the evidence falls apart. The religion isn't built around the need to go to Plan B because Plan A wasn't working as well as they liked.

 

[fast]

Edited out

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

All beliefs through faith are beliefs, but not all beliefs are beliefs through faith. There's no point in having mere belief when the point is to have belief through faith. If God were to appear before us so that no man could reasonably deny His existence, more would believe He exists than do now, but no one would continue to believe through faith. Undeniable evidence yields the destruction of faith.

As evidenced by the fact that ¾ of the world is not Xian, faith is a pretty poor method of spreading a message. If, as is claimed, God wants to "save" everybody, he's gone about it in the wrong way. That's pretty much the entire premise of my OP. The constant reminder provided by a permacrucifixion would be a much more effective way to ensure the maximum number of "saves".

- - - Updated - - -

I once argued that the Ascension was where Jesus really dropped the ball. He supposedly is martyred in public, but later makes some private appearances to followers, and then exits stage left to never be seen again. Awfully convenient, that.

Instead, why not live forever? Why not continue, down through the ages, as a perpetually 30-something year old man? He could wander the world, preaching his ideas to the Chinese, the Inuits, the Incans, the Maori. Eventually documentation would establish that this is the same man that outlives us all. He could empty hospitals, end droughts, negotiate peace treaties, teach physics. If anyone did kill him, he'd be found alive a few days later, as if nothing happened. Jesus could still be alive today, confronting crooked politicians, shaming wrong-headed preachers, and encouraging stressed-out ER workers. Furthermore, he could spend as much time as anyone needs, one-on-one, to convince them that he's the real deal.

Instead, it's "I'll be back," and no one ever sees him again. Too bad, really. He could have been somebody.

That would work, too, but it misses the torture porn element so many Xians love so much.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If God exists and has a message he wants all to know, and if he is all powerful, then all would know that message.

It really is that simple. The theatrics of a guy being strung up on a cross is pointless. If he wants you to know X, you'll know X. If you don't know X, then he didn't want you to.

 

[Bronzeage]

It probably only took about three weeks after the crucifixion before human beings ran out of ideas of better ways God could have done it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Tell ya, the resurrection would have been a tad bit more impressive (and convincing) during the crucifixion. My favorite part is how in one gospel, the stone blocking the cave was moved. Why did that need to happen?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Tell ya, the resurrection would have been a tad bit more impressive (and convincing) during the crucifixion. My favorite part is how in one gospel, the stone blocking the cave was moved. Why did that need to happen?

Well, it's no good being resurrected if you're stuck in a cave you can't get out of. It's like raising a guy from the dead who's been stabbed in the heart - he'll just die again because of the big hole in the middle of his heart.

All the various tasks around the resurrection need to be included along with it. If you're going to raise a guy with a sword-shaped hole in his heart, fixing the hole is an integral part of the resurrection checklist. Similarly, if you're resurrecting a guy trapped in a cave, opening the door of the cave so he can get out is an integral part of the resurrection checklist.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Tell ya, the resurrection would have been a tad bit more impressive (and convincing) during the crucifixion. My favorite part is how in one gospel, the stone blocking the cave was moved. Why did that need to happen?

Well, it's no good being resurrected if you're stuck in a cave you can't get out of. It's like raising a guy from the dead who's been stabbed in the heart - he'll just die again because of the big hole in the middle of his heart.

All the various tasks around the resurrection need to be included along with it. If you're going to raise a guy with a sword-shaped hole in his heart, fixing the hole is an integral part of the resurrection checklist. Similarly, if you're resurrecting a guy trapped in a cave, opening the door of the cave so he can get out is an integral part of the resurrection checklist.

But wouldn't the door being closed add to the mystique of his disappearance?

This of course ignores the reality that no two gospels agree about what was observed going to the cave.

 

[James Brown]

Similarly, if you're resurrecting a guy trapped in a cave, opening the door of the cave so he can get out is an integral part of the resurrection checklist.

But that's the thing. When the tombstone was rolled away, Jesus didn't come out and say "Ta-dah!" The tomb was empty, meaning he had already left. By teleportation, I presume. The next time I want to convince anyone that someone rose from the dead, all I need to do is dig a hole in the ground, then say, "See? No body."

There are all sorts of oddities surrounding the Crucifixion and the Resurrection:

1) If the Roman executioners were so concerned about getting his body off of the cross before sundown (John 19:31)--on the theory that the occupying Romans were sensitive to Jewish holiday customs, I suppose--why did they crucify him in the first place? Crucifixions were designed to be long-term punishments to also serve as warnings to passers-by. If you want someone dead before sundown, the thing to do is put the accused up against a wall and throw spears at his chest.

2) Having offered Jesus liquid to drink (Matthew 27:48)--in order to prolong his punishment, naturally--they decide that he needs to hurry up and be dead. So they go to break his legs to make sure that he dies quickly (John 19:32). But they don't bother breaking his legs because he's already dead. So then they stab him to make sure that he dies quickly.

3) Speaking of resurrecting but having nowhere to go, in Matthew 27:52, it's reported that as soon as Jesus dies, "the graves were opened," and a bunch of dead people resurrected. But they didn't leave their tombs until after Jesus' resurrection. After all, we wouldn't want anyone else to get top billing when it comes to walking out of a tomb, would we? So the order of events: 1) Jesus dies. 2) The graves opened. 3) Saints resurrect. 4) The saints stay in their tombs looking out the open tombs for a day and a half, no doubt feeling the effects of hunger and thirst, perhaps holding conversations with people who happen to be nearby. 5) A day and a half later, Jesus resurrects and exits stage left. 6) The other resurrected people finally leave their tombs and go into town. Perhaps they catch up with old friends, make their widows and widowers uncomfortable, get a drink with their old buddies with the wildest story to tell. You know, ordinary stuff like that.

4) In Mark 16, when the women are walking to the tomb, one of them asks out loud, "Who is going to roll the stone away for us?" This is a valid question. They didn't know in advance that Jesus would be resurrected--otherwise they wouldn't have brought the burial spices. So their game plan was to go to the tomb, see the big stone, then shrug their shoulders and go home. Great plan!

 

[Bronzeage]

Similarly, if you're resurrecting a guy trapped in a cave, opening the door of the cave so he can get out is an integral part of the resurrection checklist.

But that's the thing. When the tombstone was rolled away, Jesus didn't come out and say "Ta-dah!" The tomb was empty, meaning he had already left. By teleportation, I presume. The next time I want to convince anyone that someone rose from the dead, all I need to do is dig a hole in the ground, then say, "See? No body."

There are all sorts of oddities surrounding the Crucifixion and the Resurrection:

1) If the Roman executioners were so concerned about getting his body off of the cross before sundown (John 19:31)--on the theory that the occupying Romans were sensitive to Jewish holiday customs, I suppose--why did they crucify him in the first place? Crucifixions were designed to be long-term punishments to also serve as warnings to passers-by. If you want someone dead before sundown, the thing to do is put the accused up against a wall and throw spears at his chest.

2) Having offered Jesus liquid to drink (Matthew 27:48)--in order to prolong his punishment, naturally--they decide that he needs to hurry up and be dead. So they go to break his legs to make sure that he dies quickly (John 19:32). But they don't bother breaking his legs because he's already dead. So then they stab him to make sure that he dies quickly.

3) Speaking of resurrecting but having nowhere to go, in Matthew 27:52, it's reported that as soon as Jesus dies, "the graves were opened," and a bunch of dead people resurrected. But they didn't leave their tombs until after Jesus' resurrection. After all, we wouldn't want anyone else to get top billing when it comes to walking out of a tomb, would we? So the order of events: 1) Jesus dies. 2) The graves opened. 3) Saints resurrect. 4) The saints stay in their tombs looking out the open tombs for a day and a half, no doubt feeling the effects of hunger and thirst, perhaps holding conversations with people who happen to be nearby. 5) A day and a half later, Jesus resurrects and exits stage left. 6) The other resurrected people finally leave their tombs and go into town. Perhaps they catch up with old friends, make their widows and widowers uncomfortable, get a drink with their old buddies with the wildest story to tell. You know, ordinary stuff like that.

4) In Mark 16, when the women are walking to the tomb, one of them asks out loud, "Who is going to roll the stone away for us?" This is a valid question. They didn't know in advance that Jesus would be resurrected--otherwise they wouldn't have brought the burial spices. So their game plan was to go to the tomb, see the big stone, then shrug their shoulders and go home. Great plan!

Just a small point, the jab with the spear was to see if any life was left in the body, and if there was, certainly hasten death. It's main purpose was diagnostic.

Death by crucifixion is a combination of shock, dehydration, and asphyxiation, as the weight of the body pulls the chest muscles and constrict the ribs. Breaking the legs increases the load on the upper body and brings a quick end to the process.

The main objective of the Roman government of the time was to maintain order and keep tax revenue flowing. Riots are expensive and disorderly. For this reason, Roman rulers tried to observe local customs, especially if violating the customs which might lead to rioting and looting. Leaving a body out in the open during the Sabbath might do just that.

As for the women at the tomb, they probably would have asked for help from someone nearby. It's a simple solution.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I was just watching a video on youtube which included scenes of the crucifiction (misspelling intended). you know, the usual torture porn so many Xians like to wallow in. And a thought struck me: If God really wnated his message to get across, and convince people to believe in him ... why didn't he just leave him hanging there?

Think about it; the same guy hanging on a bit of wood for 2000 years, there for everybody to see, rather than just the relatively few people who were there at the time. If you saw him as an infant, you could go back 90 years later and see the same guy in the same condition on the same lump of wood ... what's not to believe? A living testimony to the fact that, if you don't live by God's rules, he will fuck you up bigtime and forever.

Instead, we have the mismatching stories of four men who happened to have been told the tale many years after the supposed fact and been capable of writing it down. The allegedly all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful deity ... doesn't know how to convince people.

You can ask that question about events in lots of stories, and lots of bible stories. When you're composing a tale for an audience you employ literary license. It lets you get away with just about anything because the audience is there to be entertained.

People want melodrama and intrigue, theater, circus, not rational resolution. Are you going to deny them that by having jesus hang around on those boards?

My opinion as to why Jesus didn't just hang around is that there would never have been a shroud of Turin if he did. There could never have been stories about his having survived and moved in with Mary Magdelene and raised kids. No holy grail to seek. No second coming. No resurrection so no Easter with bunnies and eggs and chocolate crosses and jellybeans. These are all the reasons people go to the movies and if Jesus just hangs around you've deprived an audience of recreation and entertainment.

 

[ideologyhunter]

About the rock being rolled away (which of course the Gospels don't agree upon): John Ch. 20 has JC getting into houses when the doors are locked, so apparently he can glide right through solid substances, just like...whatever that superhero is; it's been too long since I read comics.
About leaving him up on the cross -- some possible complications:
1. Birds pecking at him, then becoming uber-birds by ingesting the Holy Substance. I mean, imagine what the Roman Catholics would do with that. They already have the holy spirit called the "paraclete"!!!! I can foresee a new order of avian hybrid saints.
2. In the golden age of holy relics, you can be sure that merchants would come around and saw off pieces of JC (if they weren't zapped by holy lightning or whatever.) Can you imagine what a holy toe would go for? (For an exciting read, consult the Wikipedia entry on Divine Prepuce. You can't make this shit up.)

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Are we sure that Jesus wasn't just a ghost? It would explain how he's able to walk through walls and rocks and shit. We know people saw him after his death, but did anyone actually make physical contact with the man?

This may be less of a ressurection and more of a standard old haunting.