Why do people believe in hell?

[DBT]

I'd love to answer that but there's a no preaching rule here and I don't want to trigger any snowflake atheists.

A simple yes or no would be fine, thanks.

Do you want to be saved?

Yes or no....does someone need to believe in Jesus in order to be saved?

 

[Lion IRC]

 

[Lion IRC]

So much of the atheist counter-apologetics and polemics against 'hell' seem to be a form of virtue signaling sympathy for the inhabitants of such a place. But does that same sympathy extend to the inhabitants of terrestrial (secular) prisons who, arguably got themselves into their predicament all by themselves and deserve to be there?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Is someone comparing scraping a finger to being boiled in oil for eternity?

 

[ruby sparks]

So much of the atheist counter-apologetics and polemics against 'hell' seem to be a form of virtue signaling sympathy for the inhabitants of such a place. But does that same sympathy extend to the inhabitants of terrestrial (secular) prisons who, arguably got themselves into their predicament all by themselves and deserve to be there?

I do have sympathy for anyone who ends up in prison. I have not walked in their shoes my whole life and I believe that if I actually had, I would have been in prison.

And if they see the error of their ways and express genuine remorse and regret and appear to be capable of not reoffending I’m in favour of assessing them for release at some time.

Plus there is no need to torture them while they are in there. In fact it might seem intrinsically wrong and indeed pointless to do that to them.

 

[Lion IRC]

I agree. But can you conceive of any type of prisoner whose case file should be marked - Never To Be Released?

 

[ruby sparks]

I agree. But can you conceive of any type of prisoner whose case file should be marked - Never To Be Released?

Yes.

But we are only talking about depriving them of their full freedom. Not torture.

But, although I don’t tend to agree with it, I can even possibly see a justification for the death penalty.

That would be the equivalent of the previously mentioned annihilationsim I think.

 

[Lion IRC]

Are The Gates of Hell Locked From The Inside?
https://godversusreligion.com/are-the-gates-of-hell-locked-from-the-inside/

If someone from Hell was allowed a trip to visit Heaven,
would they stay?

 

[Politesse]

I agree. But can you conceive of any type of prisoner whose case file should be marked - Never To Be Released?

What crime could possibly justify such a sentence?

 

[DBT]

So much of the atheist counter-apologetics and polemics against 'hell' seem to be a form of virtue signaling sympathy for the inhabitants of such a place. But does that same sympathy extend to the inhabitants of terrestrial (secular) prisons who, arguably got themselves into their predicament all by themselves and deserve to be there?

Instead of answering a simple question, a relevant question, you go into deflection mode....atheists, atheists that. The question is important because the answer determines what we are supposed to be judged on, and our fate upon sentencing.

 

[Lion IRC]

I agree. But can you conceive of any type of prisoner whose case file should be marked - Never To Be Released?

What crime could possibly justify such a sentence?

Yes. That's what I asked.

 

[excreationist]

@DBT:
Please tell me what you think of this:

https://www.koorong.com/product/the...rd-edition-edward-william-fudge_9781608999309
"Note that there are three reviews which are from Christians who have actually read the book and they all give 5 star reviews"

Note those are actual Christians while you are trying to interpret the Bible as a dogmatic fan of the traditional church doctrine
You don't seem to have read what I quoted in post #164 - just my first two sentences.

As far "worm does not die" you could have read about that yourself if you had at least skim-read that site... perhaps like #164 you will pick one or two easy to respond to parts and ignore the rest.

Why rarely cited Isaiah 66:24 is the key

Isaiah 66:24 states "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."


Why is this verse key? Because Jesus quotes it verbatim in Mark 9:48. Therefore, it is a clear statement about Gehenna (hell) and must be looked at in the context of Isaiah 66. (Jesus would have known it in context and so should we.) Also, the word "Gehenna" is what Jesus used whenever he spoke of "hell" and that was the name of the garbage dump in Jerusalem! So His listeners would not have understood Jesus as speaking of eternal torment here. Gehenna was a place where worms and fires lived, but not people! Now back to Isaiah 66:24.


In this verse we have believers, ("they" in verse 24), going out to look upon the very place tradition tells us we will never see. Isaiah clearly states that we will see those in Gehenna. He cannot state it more clearly in verse 24, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses."


We, believers, will look upon dead bodies in Gehenna. (Did you ever consider that?) And what will be seen? Isaiah makes it clear, we will see "carcasses" (Hebrew: pegerim = dead bodies). This is at the point in time when all in Gehenna (hell) have already died in "body and soul" (Matthew 10:28). Then we will be permitted to view them. They will be ashes by this time (Malachi 4:3)-cremated.


Evangelical author Edward Fudge gives this passage a well developed exegesis that deserves quotation here:


Jesus quotes these words (Isaiah 66:24) in one of His own famous statements about final punishment (Mark 9:48), and they have formed the basis for much Christian teaching on hell ever since. It is important to look carefully, therefore, at what the verse actually says...


The righteous "go out and look" on their enemies" corpses...They look at corpses (Hebrew: pegerim), not living people. They view their destruction, not their misery. Other Bible verses mention "worms" in connection with dead bodies. Several kinds of flies lay eggs in the flesh of carcasses, which hatch into larvae known as maggots. These serve a beneficial purpose in hastening decomposition. They are also a symbol of ignominy precisely because they attack only bodies deprived of burial. To the Hebrew mind, even if a man could live to be 200 years old and have 100 children, without a proper burial he would better have been stillborn (Ecclesiastes 6:3-6). Like Jezebel, these corpses are left unburied; they are "loathsome" to all who see them (2 Kings 9:10).


To burn a corpse signified at times a thing utterly accursed or devoted to God for destruction (Josh 7:25). It also was an act of complete contempt (Amos 2:1)... Because this fire is "not quenched" or extinguished, it completely consumes what is put into it. The figure of unquenchable fire is frequent in scripture and signifies a fire that consumes (Ezekiel 20:47, 48), reduces to nothing (Amos 5:5,6) or burns up something (Matt 3:12). Both worms and fire speak of a total and final destruction. Both terms also make this a "loathsome" scene. The righteous view it with disgust but not pity. The final picture is one of shame, not pain.


(Edward W. Fudge, The Fire That Consumes. A Biblical and Historical Study of the Final Punishment, Houston, 1982, p. 111)


Certainly the fact that we, as believers, will go out and "look upon" these dead bodies in Gehenna (hell) must make us change the paradigm by we see the fate of the lost through.


Is this not what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? They became ashes and the surrounding towns could eventually walk through there with amazement and see ashes everywhere of those who were incinerated.


Notice the Jewish apostle Peter draws this same conclusion, "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly" (2 Peter 2:6). If Sodom is an example (Peter's own words) to us of the fate of the ungodly, then their becoming ashes must be the same fate reserved for the lost-cremation. Sodomites became ashes, Peter tells us the unsaved will also become ashes–not tormented forever as is erroneously taught.


Additionally, Malachi also tells us the wicked will be turned into ashes, just as Peter stated above, "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet." Malachi 4:3


Isaiah, Peter and Malachi tell us the fate of unbelievers is for them to become ashes, cremated. Ashes that will be looked upon with contempt or disgust (Isaiah 66:24, Daniel 12:2). These are bodies and souls of men that are now destroyed (Matthew 10:28).


No doubt it will be terrible for the lost on Judgment day, but the Traditional notion of eternal torture is not found in these verses. Dead bodies "turning into ashes" is what is written by Isaiah and spoken by Jesus (Yeshua).

 

[Politesse]

I agree. But can you conceive of any type of prisoner whose case file should be marked - Never To Be Released?

What crime could possibly justify such a sentence?

Yes. That's what I asked.

None. All crimes in a just system have a fixed term of punishment.

 

[DBT]

Note those are actual Christians while you are trying to interpret the Bible as a dogmatic fan of the traditional church doctrine

I'm not trying to do anything. I have already pointed out that it has nothing to do with me, just what the verses say and how they have been interpreted. You misrepresent my position.

You don't seem to have read what I quoted in post #164 - just my first two sentences.

There are limits to both time and patience. We all know how these verses have been interpreted over most of their history, including the attempts that have been made to sanitize them.

So you are wasting time providing links, quotes and videos that offer their interpretations, we know all this.

One more time, I ask you to tell me in your own words, clearly and concisely what you think these verses are saying and what they mean, no videos, no quoting what others believe...just you in your own words.


"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12:2

''And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.'' - Revelation 20:15


''And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” - Revelation 14:11

''But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! '' - Luke 12:5

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. - Matthew 25:41

A small list of those condemned to burn:

'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone'' - Rev 21:8

 

[excreationist]

@DBT:
You still haven't provided any evidence that you have read any of the quotes let alone even skim-read the introductory website:
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

There are limits to both time and patience. We all know how these verses have been interpreted over most of their history, including the attempts that have been made to sanitize them.

So that explains why you seem unwilling to read even quotes, let alone a whole one-page website. And ideally I'd like you to read a 420 page book which I've shown has 3 five star reviews from Christians, some of which originally shared your position of the church's traditional view.

So you are wasting time providing links, quotes and videos that offer their interpretations, we know all this.

Yes because you have a limit to your time and patience that doesn't allow to spend a couple minutes looking into it for yourself (reading quotes and a website).

One more time, I ask you to tell me in your own words, clearly and concisely what you think these verses are saying and what they mean, no videos, no quoting what others believe...just you in your own words.

Lately my cognitive abilities are so bad that I was unable to write a 600 word essay for tertiary preparation. The 420 page book got 3 five star reviews (and no others). I don't think I'm capable of writing a book that highly praised.

So you have the patience and time to just spew out verses, some of which aren't actually relevant to whether hell is eternal...

That 420 page book was written by a guy who spent a year researching hell. Surely they would be a more educated source on this topic. I can provide links to the evidence but I don't want to attempt to follow your request and write it all in my own words.

 

[ruby sparks]

Are The Gates of Hell Locked From The Inside?
https://godversusreligion.com/are-the-gates-of-hell-locked-from-the-inside/

If someone from Hell was allowed a trip to visit Heaven,
would they stay?

That article seems to consider, and possibly mix up, two very different things. One is how or why atheists reject god during what the article itself correctly calls ‘this short life’. In this case, there might be a way to say that separation from god is self-imposed, yes.

The other, about the afterlife, seems different. There is as far as I know nothing anywhere in the bible to suggest that getting out of afterlife hell is in any way something there is any choice about after someone arrives.

But going along with the thought experiment that I (for example) am offered a way out of hell....

In the end it would hypothetically depend on what hell is like and what heaven is like. If hell were to be a place of extreme physical or mental torture, and heaven wasn’t, only a fool would turn down the chance to get out. Maybe there are such fools. If there were then the pain of hell, like rejecting god while alive, would be self imposed, in that hypothetical, yes.

But here’s the thing. Now, in my life, I’m not in misery because I reject god, so I am having trouble seeing why I would be after I’m dead. And when I look around at those who accept god, they don’t on average, seem to be any happier than me or atheists I know, so I’m not jealous of what they’ve got. Good luck to them. I hope it works for them. And it if makes them a bit happier than me, I can't say that I really mind that.

So why would I suffer in hell?

Well, it could be that in heaven, there is a state of bliss and love that far exceeds anything that I can currently imagine. It would certainly hurt a lot to not experience that, if I knew it could be experienced but that I am missing out on it.

And yes, in that hypothetical scenario some souls might indeed be as daft and obstinate as in life, and would in fact reject the opportunity to leave hell.

However it must I think be stressed that it’s only an interesting hypothetical. Its not part of the situation that is said in the relevant texts to actually pertain. I don’t think the option of getting out of hell is said, in the bible, to be available. As such C S Lewis didn’t actually ‘discover’ anything, about hell as it is described to be.

My guess is that if it were an option, many souls, once they realised the situation and their mistake (a bit like the rich man in the Lazarus parable perhaps) would probably take it. That some wouldn’t would only make hell self-imposed for them only.

And finally, the whole scenario hinges upon whether there actually is a god and an afterlife. I don’t see any good reason to think there is. What if I’m wrong, I hear you say? Sure. But my chances of suffering because of being wrong are not much different to yours. What if there’s an afterlife and it turns out god is not yours, not the Christian one? Maybe only Jews, or only Muslims, or believers in some other god, go to heaven. You might even be worse off than me in one of those situations. At least I wouldn’t be guilty of having worshipped a rival or false deity or redeemer. You might get a worse punishment than me.

Or, what if heaven isn’t all it’s cracked up to be in the sales literature and what if hell ain’t so bad as the scare stories? Scandinavia, for example, doesn't seem to be descending into a heathen bloodbath. Maybe atheist hell would be ok.

Or what if the flawed, imperfect love of a fellow soul is, oddly, better, despite all the shortcomings, than the supposedly perfect love of a god who can consign those who don't love him back to hell. That strikes me as an odd kind of perfect love.

We really don’t know the truth, neither you, nor I, nor anyone. The possibilities are almost endless. So in the end, we’re all making risky bets, based on our beliefs, you just as much as me. And if you were to say to me that you're pretty sure you're right about your beliefs, that would only tell me how sure you are, not how right you are.

 

[DBT]

@DBT:
You still haven't provided any evidence that you have read any of the quotes let alone even skim-read the introductory website:
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

I am aware of the attempts that have been made to sanitize bible verses pertaining to hell and damnation. It is nothing new. We have been around long enough to know the rationales being used. Translation from Greek does not alter the meaning or intent, the same word is used in reference to eternal glory and eternal damnation....aionion/forever and ever. for example.

Here is a thread on the subject I started some time back.

I was asking you what you think the verses are saying, what the mean and the picture they paint of the nature of god, judgment and the related ethics.

Lately my cognitive abilities are so bad that I was unable to write a 600 word essay for tertiary preparation

.

Sorry to hear it. Hope things improve.

''So you have the patience and time to just spew out verses, some of which aren't actually relevant to whether hell is eternal.''

Obviously they are relevant because the same Greek words are used in both instances, eternal glory and eternal damnation - aiónia timoría - aionion. That being the issue.

Nor am I ''spewing'' out verses. I only quoted a few in order to paint a picture of meaning and significance.

Take one at a time if you like;


“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. - Matthew 25:41

Keep in mind that those on the left refers not to the devil and his angels but those to be judged, who's fate appears to be as described in the verse.

 

[Learner]

That's strange. Jesus himself quotes from the OT, and the NT centre's around Jesus and his teachings + quotes. Some judaic teachings (Pharisees & co.) are not compitable with the Prophets of the OT.

Jesus quotes nothing because he wrote nothing. Anonymous Christian writers have Jesus quoting the OT and referring to the prophets.

Two different things.

It was the writers of the gospel who tried to weave Jesus into the narrative, but this was rejected by orthodox Judaism.

Two different things, indeed yes.

Both are still compatible, from a logic sense e.g. the underlined, regardless how you attempt to put it .....the writers trying to fit to the OT. And besides ... orthodox Jews that DO accept Jesus become Messianic Jews, knowing as much about the Torah as every orthodox Jew.

 

[DBT]

That's strange. Jesus himself quotes from the OT, and the NT centre's around Jesus and his teachings + quotes. Some judaic teachings (Pharisees & co.) are not compitable with the Prophets of the OT.

Jesus quotes nothing because he wrote nothing. Anonymous Christian writers have Jesus quoting the OT and referring to the prophets.

Two different things.

It was the writers of the gospel who tried to weave Jesus into the narrative, but this was rejected by orthodox Judaism.

Two different things, indeed yes.

Both are still compatible, from a logic sense e.g. the underlined, regardless how you attempt to put it .....the writers trying to fit to the OT. And besides ... orthodox Jews that DO accept Jesus become Messianic Jews, knowing as much about the Torah as every orthodox Jew.

Orthodox Jews give good reason why they reject Jesus as the prophesied Messiah....and there is evidence that NT writers tried to make Jesus fit/fulfill the prophesy.

 

[Learner]

Two different things, indeed yes.

Both are still compatible, from a logic sense e.g. the underlined, regardless how you attempt to put it .....the writers trying to fit to the OT. And besides ... orthodox Jews that DO accept Jesus become Messianic Jews, knowing as much about the Torah as every orthodox Jew.

Orthodox Jews give good reason why they reject Jesus as the prophesied Messiah....and there is evidence that NT writers tried to make Jesus fit/fulfill the prophesy.

Generally its their view. Like I sort of said othordox Jews can change their minds...usually happens when they discover the NT. Orthodox Jews BTW is a Rabbinic sect of Judaism, (which was not the only Judaic Sect that understood and interpreted scripture).