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Why gun control isn't the answer

That's because it's bullshit. There is no such law.

Sure of that? New York is pretty nuts about guns. It appears that the only way to get a gun license there is to bribe the officer that has to sign off on it.

More bullshit. People on the internet making stuff up that agrees with their preconceptions is how most of these stupid fake factoids get spread. Why do it?

Anyone with half a brain can look up the relevant parts of the New York Penal Code. I'll give you a hint just to get you started, most of the relevant bits are in Article 265.
 
(Countwalled. If you've hit the limit use private browsing.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...1-58c702d2d975_story.html?tid=pm_opinions_pop

It's a simplistic answer to deeper problems.

Nothing new there. Just the same tired, fallacious and scientifically incompetent misdirects that gun nutters typically use.
There term like "no clear evidence" means that that took every single correlated measure they could find, through them all as "control" variable into the analysis and unsurprisingly, there wasn't enough variance left for gun control measures to account for anything or if there was, there were still other variables they couldn't rule out.

That means nothing. If gun control had significant causal impact on reducing gun violence, you'd find that same "lack of clear evidence", because of the correlation nature of the data. If you throw in enough control variables you can make it seem like there is no "no clear evidence" that smoking causes cancer. With the kind of data available, inability to find "clear evidence" after accounting for all kinds of control factors is not any sort of evidence against the hypothesis that there is a meaningful causal relationship.

We don't have access to the kind of data from double blind controlled studies that we need to have the kind of direct "clear evidence".
The fact that this author sets the bar at "prove" (a word competent researchers do not use) shows his bar is so high that his conclusion that the correlational evidence doesn't meet it is meaningless. The fact that he tosses in the red herring of suicides suggests he is truly stupid or a dishonest partisan.

Also, note that he repeatedly refers to "popularly floated policies" and "oft-praised policies" like assault-rifle bans and silencer bans as not solving the problem of most murders because they are either not used in most murders or don't restrict things that cannot be easily made from other guns. That is not an indictment of gun control but of the cowardly limited gun control. It suggest that the only kind that will do anything is that which greatly limits and restricts all firearms of all types. Such restrictions are not part of "popular" policies being touted by politicians, so they are not addressed by his "research".

Again, the practical limitations of the data we have prevent any kind of direct empirical "proof" that such extensive restrictions would reduce gun violence. However, there are some facts we do know that when combined with a basic honest inductive reasoning would lead any sensible person to the conclusion that restrictions on how many guns can flow through the legal market and through any one person's hands, and a system that tracks every single gun legally made and sold would massively reduce criminal use of guns.

Here is some what we do know with near certainty:
Most guns used in murders got into the hands of the criminal via a chain of legal gun makers, dealers, and owners.
The ability of these players in the legal market to funnel guns into the hands of criminals is made easy by the lack of any regulations that would make getting caught a minimal probability.
The prevalence of guns possessed and distributed legally is by far the strongest predictor of the prevalence of guns possessed by criminals and distributed within the black market.
People cannot use a gun in a criminal fashion, if they do not have one.
Like possession of all things in the universe by any person, a person's possession of guns is heavily determined by how many of such objects are readily available, and how commonplace and standard it is among one's social network and peers to possess such objects.

Combining those facts with basic understanding of human behavior, we can infer that choking off and tracking the supply of legal guns would massively reduce the number readily available to those with criminal intent. This can be done by making it criminalizing various things that make it so easy for legal gun owners to profit off of reselling the guns that flow into the black market and get used in crime.

Among the ways (none of which violate the 2nd Amendment) to do this are: 1) make it illegal for anyone other than makers and dealers to buy or possess more than some small number of firearms, 2) require that every single gun be registered and its continued possession by the registered owner to be annually verified by law enforcement; 3) make it illegal for any gun possession transfer to occur outside a formal setting where their is some official present to verify it; 4) require that gun manufacturer put a gps trackable chip into every gun in a manner that attempts to remove it would largely ruin the firearm; 5) require all current guns to have such chips added to them; 6) require that all gun theft be reported within 60 days to reduce resellers'' ability to pretend their guns were stolen; 7) harsh criminal and civil liability if one's gun is used by another in a crime, unless they can show the weapon was reasonably secured and reported stolen within a reasonable time period; 8) make any first time violation of any of these felonies with harsh minimum prison sentences; 9) allow for larger gun collections, so long as they are all well secured and subject to random on-site inspection with harsh penalties for any missing or unsecured weapons

Note that beyond some additional fees and inspections similar to what is currently the case for automobiles, these would have minimal impact on gun owners who don't resell their guns into the black market or use their guns for criminal purposes. The NRA does not oppose such things for any principled Constitutional reasons (there are none), but because the NRA is a for-profit propaganda arm of gun companies whose sole goal is selling as many guns to as many people as possible with no regard for the consequences.
 
It's very common for a household to have only one copy of a tool even if multiple people in the household use it. Why should guns be treated any different?

Probably because nobody has ever killed dozens of schoolchildren or concert goers with an orbital sander. :rolleyes:
Yet I'm somehow certain that someone has prevented babies from being conceived using an orbital sander.
 
Sure of that? New York is pretty nuts about guns. It appears that the only way to get a gun license there is to bribe the officer that has to sign off on it.

More bullshit. People on the internet making stuff up that agrees with their preconceptions is how most of these stupid fake factoids get spread. Why do it?

Anyone with half a brain can look up the relevant parts of the New York Penal Code. I'll give you a hint just to get you started, most of the relevant bits are in Article 265.

Here's a lawyer-in-training trying to get a New York gun permit:

https://professional-troublemaker.c...iv-an-appeal-amid-massive-corruption-scandal/
 
More bullshit. People on the internet making stuff up that agrees with their preconceptions is how most of these stupid fake factoids get spread. Why do it?

Anyone with half a brain can look up the relevant parts of the New York Penal Code. I'll give you a hint just to get you started, most of the relevant bits are in Article 265.

Here's a lawyer-in-training trying to get a New York gun permit:

https://professional-troublemaker.c...iv-an-appeal-amid-massive-corruption-scandal/

"New York" turns into "NYC"
"gun license" turns into "concealed carry permit"
"it appears" turns into "a single blog by a lawyer-in-training's blog covered in blatant donation requests to fund his various litigations".

Color me unimpressed.

I know people with NYC carry permits and they aren't rich, powerful, or well-connected, so it isn't impossible to get them. It's much easier to get a premises permit, which is enough for home defense and target shooting. Anyway, none of that supports the claim that "it's illegal to so much as TOUCH another person's gun" or that "the only way to get a gun license is to bribe the police officer that has to sign off on it".
 
I was reminded of this thread yesterday, when I had a chilling experience during a trip to the Safeway store. I live in Washington, an "open carry" state. As I was getting in my car to drive away, a young man--looked like in his early twenties--got into the car next to mine. He had a semiautomatic pistol displayed proudly on his hip for all to see. I don't think he was dangerous at the moment, because he was just strutting around with his gun, but it was intimidating. My wife wondered what could have happened if I had accidentally damaged his car while pulling out of the spot. Probably nothing, but you never know what is going to set off one of these people under stress. Nobody chooses to go crazy, but I couldn't help viewing him as a man with a lot of gun-related fantasies. There is no need for anyone to carry weapons openly like that. If they have a concealed-carry permit, then they should at least keep them concealed.

When I visited the Soviet Union back in 1965, the police all kept their pistols underneath the hems of their Russian shirts. This kid looked far more intimidating.
 
This kid looked far more intimidating.
As designed.
Quite correct. The Soviet authorities tended not to want their police to look intimidating, and ordinary citizens were far more casual in their interactions with them. Twenty-something males like the idea of looking fierce and intimidating. That's what makes them more of a threat to the public.
 
I was reminded of this thread yesterday, when I had a chilling experience during a trip to the Safeway store. I live in Washington, an "open carry" state. As I was getting in my car to drive away, a young man--looked like in his early twenties--got into the car next to mine. He had a semiautomatic pistol displayed proudly on his hip for all to see. I don't think he was dangerous at the moment, because he was just strutting around with his gun, but it was intimidating. My wife wondered what could have happened if I had accidentally damaged his car while pulling out of the spot. Probably nothing, but you never know what is going to set off one of these people under stress. Nobody chooses to go crazy, but I couldn't help viewing him as a man with a lot of gun-related fantasies. There is no need for anyone to carry weapons openly like that. If they have a concealed-carry permit, then they should at least keep them concealed.

When I visited the Soviet Union back in 1965, the police all kept their pistols underneath the hems of their Russian shirts. This kid looked far more intimidating.
He should carry a magnifying glass in his holster. It will have the same effect of enlarging his penis for him.
 
Here's a lawyer-in-training trying to get a New York gun permit:

https://professional-troublemaker.c...iv-an-appeal-amid-massive-corruption-scandal/

"New York" turns into "NYC"
"gun license" turns into "concealed carry permit"
"it appears" turns into "a single blog by a lawyer-in-training's blog covered in blatant donation requests to fund his various litigations".

Color me unimpressed.

I know people with NYC carry permits and they aren't rich, powerful, or well-connected, so it isn't impossible to get them. It's much easier to get a premises permit, which is enough for home defense and target shooting. Anyway, none of that supports the claim that "it's illegal to so much as TOUCH another person's gun" or that "the only way to get a gun license is to bribe the police officer that has to sign off on it".


Yah, it's bullshit that the NY SAfe law has impinged on any lawful person substantially. My brother and several friends live in NY and had all kinds of complints when ths went through. As of today, they still have every gun they had and more added. It's a start and not an onerous one.

Can't have more than 7 bullets and yyour favorite gun has a 10-bullet magazine? Just leave three empty spaces wheneer you're not at the range. So simple. And they still complain. "But what if a crazed black person tries to steal my 35 year old Fiesta? I'm gonna need those 10 bullets!"


Yah-hunh. That and the rapture, right?
http://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/governor.ny.gov/files/archive/assets/documents/safeactfaq.pdf
 
I think this is an example of a gun law that has no practical purpose. What was the purpose of passing this law ?

That's because it's bullshit. There is no such law.

NYS Penal code Article 400:

The possession of a handgun in New York is limited only to those individuals who hold a valid pistol license and are in possession of a registered handgun that appears on the license, indicating the specific make, model, caliber, and serial number of the handgun.

by "touching" I meant "possessing".. which, in NY, means "holding"... so if it was laying on a table and you reach out your index finger and literally just touch it, I guess you are not "holding" it. But you can't hold it, carry it, or do anything useful with it (except stroke it like an idiot while the legal registered owner holds it, I guess).

If a legal carry permit owner hands you their gun, even if you are a legal carry permit owner yourself, you are in possession of an unregistered firearm (even though it is registered to the person standing next to you).
 
In theory, I would presume to create an additional charge for guns used in a crime... if a gun isn't the property of the offending criminal, then they are also guilty of that as well.

That's a good idea. If the idea of a murder charge isn't enough to dissuade someone from killing, the $50 fine for using an unregistered gun most certainly will.

$50 fine? Try up to 15 years in prison on top of whatever class C felony was committed with the gun.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure of that? New York is pretty nuts about guns. It appears that the only way to get a gun license there is to bribe the officer that has to sign off on it.

More bullshit. People on the internet making stuff up that agrees with their preconceptions is how most of these stupid fake factoids get spread. Why do it?

Anyone with half a brain can look up the relevant parts of the New York Penal Code. I'll give you a hint just to get you started, most of the relevant bits are in Article 265.

good luck finding the missing parts of your brain... what an ironic post in light of your willful ignorance on that which you speak.
 
Here's a lawyer-in-training trying to get a New York gun permit:

https://professional-troublemaker.c...iv-an-appeal-amid-massive-corruption-scandal/

"New York" turns into "NYC"
"gun license" turns into "concealed carry permit"
"it appears" turns into "a single blog by a lawyer-in-training's blog covered in blatant donation requests to fund his various litigations".

Color me unimpressed.

I know people with NYC carry permits and they aren't rich, powerful, or well-connected, so it isn't impossible to get them. It's much easier to get a premises permit, which is enough for home defense and target shooting. Anyway, none of that supports the claim that "it's illegal to so much as TOUCH another person's gun" or that "the only way to get a gun license is to bribe the police officer that has to sign off on it".

correct. None of the issues with NY's corrupt permit review process has anything to do with penal code section 400, relating to registration of firearms being listed on permits, and restriction of handling of firearms to those listed, registered firearms.

Premise licenses are pretty much only for small businesses that claim to handle large cash deposits late at night... not for an individual's "premises" (i.e. "home defense").

I have heard from multiple firearms safety instructors and business owners that the NY permit issuance procedure is basically this:

step 1: file for permit
step 2: get denied for no reason
step 3: pay an NRA-sponsored lawyer to write a letter threatening to sue the state on 2nd amendment violation
step 4: get permit on appeal

When I asked a friend of mine on some advice for filing he said, "give me a call when you get your rejection and I'll hook you up with the attorneys we use"... like it was the standard process.
 
That's because it's bullshit. There is no such law.

NYS Penal code Article 400:

The possession of a handgun in New York is limited only to those individuals who hold a valid pistol license and are in possession of a registered handgun that appears on the license, indicating the specific make, model, caliber, and serial number of the handgun.

by "touching" I meant "possessing".. which, in NY, means "holding"... so if it was laying on a table and you reach out your index finger and literally just touch it, I guess you are not "holding" it. But you can't hold it, carry it, or do anything useful with it (except stroke it like an idiot while the legal registered owner holds it, I guess).

If a legal carry permit owner hands you their gun, even if you are a legal carry permit owner yourself, you are in possession of an unregistered firearm (even though it is registered to the person standing next to you).

"Possession" is not so strictly defined in practice. If you find a bag of money in the street and then turn it in to the police, you cannot be charged with "possession of stolen property" just because you were holding the bag for an hour and a half. The implication of "possession" is that you are taking ownership of the item in question within your own private property or person in a way that prevents others from using it. So while you MIGHT get in trouble for taking the stolen bag of money home, you still wouldn't be charged with possession unless the bag is in your home when the police happen to find it and there's no evidence that you intended to return it (notifying the police means you had no intention of taking ownership).
 
The practice of this regulation is such that any gun range you go to will enforce that to the most conservative degree.. which is to say, touching another person's gun is prohibited and considered a crime in the places where such activity would otherwise be common... and the ranges are full of off-duty police officers that the range is more aligned with than the average citizen. they err on the most conservative interpretation of the law.
 
The practice of this regulation is such that any gun range you go to will enforce that to the most conservative degree.. which is to say, touching another person's gun is prohibited and considered a crime in the places where such activity would otherwise be common... and the ranges are full of off-duty police officers that the range is more aligned with than the average citizen. they err on the most conservative interpretation of the law.

The range owners probably do, sure. That doesn't mean the police or the judicial branch will do the same. There are a hundred things people think are illegal that actually aren't and there are a hundred things people think are legal that they could get arrested for any second. Ultimately, the final determinant of whether or not something is legal or not is the extent to which a prosecutor is willing to press charges for it and whether or not a judge is willing to proceed with the case. This is the very scary part where you realize 99% of the laws we think we understand only work the way they do because a handful of judges choose to interpret them a particular way.
 
But you can't hold it, carry it, or do anything useful with it (except stroke it like an idiot while the legal registered owner holds it, I guess).

Nitpick: Many years ago my wife was in the position of doing something very mildly useful with a gun despite the fact that someone else was holding it. There was Chinese writing on the gun, she was translating it. (I say "very mildly useful" because it turned out to be very uninformative.)
 
Yah, it's bullshit that the NY SAfe law has impinged on any lawful person substantially. My brother and several friends live in NY and had all kinds of complints when ths went through. As of today, they still have every gun they had and more added. It's a start and not an onerous one.

Can't have more than 7 bullets and yyour favorite gun has a 10-bullet magazine? Just leave three empty spaces wheneer you're not at the range. So simple. And they still complain. "But what if a crazed black person tries to steal my 35 year old Fiesta? I'm gonna need those 10 bullets!"

Long guns or handguns?
 
NYS Penal code Article 400:

The possession of a handgun in New York is limited only to those individuals who hold a valid pistol license and are in possession of a registered handgun that appears on the license, indicating the specific make, model, caliber, and serial number of the handgun.

by "touching" I meant "possessing".. which, in NY, means "holding"... so if it was laying on a table and you reach out your index finger and literally just touch it, I guess you are not "holding" it. But you can't hold it, carry it, or do anything useful with it (except stroke it like an idiot while the legal registered owner holds it, I guess).

If a legal carry permit owner hands you their gun, even if you are a legal carry permit owner yourself, you are in possession of an unregistered firearm (even though it is registered to the person standing next to you).

That's not an actual quote from 400. Here is the text of Article 400. Maybe you can find it for me?

So what you "meant" isn't what you "wrote", and what you "meant" still isn't even right.

Here is an actual quote from 265, where they have a long list of exemptions (including for police, military, security guards, hunting, teenagers, people who are in the process of applying for a license, etc...

Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading and firing the same, by a person duly licensed to possess a pistol or revolver pursuant to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter of a pistol or revolver duly so licensed to another person who is present at the time.

So much for "YOU CANT EVEN TOUCH A GUN ERMAGERD, HOW WILL WE LEARN GUN SAFETY!!!1!"

Sure of that? New York is pretty nuts about guns. It appears that the only way to get a gun license there is to bribe the officer that has to sign off on it.

More bullshit. People on the internet making stuff up that agrees with their preconceptions is how most of these stupid fake factoids get spread. Why do it?

Anyone with half a brain can look up the relevant parts of the New York Penal Code. I'll give you a hint just to get you started, most of the relevant bits are in Article 265.

good luck finding the missing parts of your brain... what an ironic post in light of your willful ignorance on that which you speak.

I know, right?

correct. None of the issues with NY's corrupt permit review process has anything to do with penal code section 400, relating to registration of firearms being listed on permits, and restriction of handling of firearms to those listed, registered firearms.

Premise licenses are pretty much only for small businesses that claim to handle large cash deposits late at night... not for an individual's "premises" (i.e. "home defense").

I have heard from multiple firearms safety instructors and business owners that the NY permit issuance procedure is basically this:

step 1: file for permit
step 2: get denied for no reason
step 3: pay an NRA-sponsored lawyer to write a letter threatening to sue the state on 2nd amendment violation
step 4: get permit on appeal

When I asked a friend of mine on some advice for filing he said, "give me a call when you get your rejection and I'll hook you up with the attorneys we use"... like it was the standard process.

I love the "I've heard" data points. I'm unimpressed.
 
That's not an actual quote from 400. Here is the text of Article 400. Maybe you can find it for me?

So what you "meant" isn't what you "wrote", and what you "meant" still isn't even right.

Here is an actual quote from 265, where they have a long list of exemptions (including for police, military, security guards, hunting, teenagers, people who are in the process of applying for a license, etc...

Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading and firing the same, by a person duly licensed to possess a pistol or revolver pursuant to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter of a pistol or revolver duly so licensed to another person who is present at the time.

So much for "YOU CANT EVEN TOUCH A GUN ERMAGERD, HOW WILL WE LEARN GUN SAFETY!!!1!"

Sure of that? New York is pretty nuts about guns. It appears that the only way to get a gun license there is to bribe the officer that has to sign off on it.

More bullshit. People on the internet making stuff up that agrees with their preconceptions is how most of these stupid fake factoids get spread. Why do it?

Anyone with half a brain can look up the relevant parts of the New York Penal Code. I'll give you a hint just to get you started, most of the relevant bits are in Article 265.

good luck finding the missing parts of your brain... what an ironic post in light of your willful ignorance on that which you speak.

I know, right?

correct. None of the issues with NY's corrupt permit review process has anything to do with penal code section 400, relating to registration of firearms being listed on permits, and restriction of handling of firearms to those listed, registered firearms.

Premise licenses are pretty much only for small businesses that claim to handle large cash deposits late at night... not for an individual's "premises" (i.e. "home defense").

I have heard from multiple firearms safety instructors and business owners that the NY permit issuance procedure is basically this:

step 1: file for permit
step 2: get denied for no reason
step 3: pay an NRA-sponsored lawyer to write a letter threatening to sue the state on 2nd amendment violation
step 4: get permit on appeal

When I asked a friend of mine on some advice for filing he said, "give me a call when you get your rejection and I'll hook you up with the attorneys we use"... like it was the standard process.

I love the "I've heard" data points. I'm unimpressed.

I've heard that if you stay in Trump's hotel in DC for a few nights, you can email him a copy of your room bill and ask for whatever you want and he'll happily cough it up for you.
 
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