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Why homelessness is hard to solve

Genuinely universal healthcare would go a LONG way towards solving the homelessness issue - particularly if psychiatric and psychological care is included. Just providing people who need them with free prescription medications would help a lot.

That's assuming they'll take it. Many won't, certainly not the paranoid ones.

Oh, well, if 'many' won't, that entirely and completely justifies us in throwing the rest under the bus.

Any proposed solution that helps, but fails to completely solve the entire problem, must clearly be rejected outright. :rolleyesa:

You really need to learn to spot the difference between a justification and a rationalisation, Loren. It is a subtle, but very important distinction.

We try to help them. We shouldn't be blamed for failing to help those that don't want help.

The massive level of homelessness considered 'normal' in the US suggests that you don't try hard enough.

Over here, it is very rare for anyone to beg on the streets. Not unheard of in the middle of Sydney or Melbourne, but rare enough even there to be a little surprising. I have been in Brisbane for the best part of 20 years now, and I don't recall the last time someone asked me for spare change, or the last time I saw a person holding a 'homeless and hungry' sign on a scrap of cardboard.

There is one guy who sells 'The Big Issue' outside Suncorp Stadium on match days. For all I could tell, he might be the only homeless guy in town; I am sure there are others, but they are few indeed, compared to a similarly sized city in the USA.
 
http://www.businessinsider.com/leo-the-homeless-coder-2014-5

The guy has made $10k in a few weeks--but he doesn't want to come in off the streets.

Nope, I still don't get it.

Are you suggesting that most homeless people have skills that make them highly employable, they could make a few grand a week, but they choose not to?

Obviously.

One data point that supports your prejudices is decisive evidence; a million data points that do not support your prejudices are probably outliers and should be ignored.

I think it's safe to say that all homeless people suffer from a variety of mental disorders. Everything from panic attacks, PTSD, bi-polar disorder to ADHD. They're not dependable, and they know they're not. Add to that substance abuse. Nobody who has tried and failed their entire lives wants to try yet again and fail again. These people aren't necessarily stupid. Maybe this guy Grant knows that if he takes a job, the next thing that happens is that he fucks up again. And he'll feel even worse than if he'd not even try. He knows himself.

Human beings have evolved to live in tight knit units of about 40 individuals. A big family where everybody takes care of each other. Because of this evolution has chosen to push for diversity of mental make-up rather than to play it safe. This means that nature pushes the capacity of the human mind to it's limits. Often beyond. That's why up to 25% of all humans as some point in their lives suffer a debilitating mental condition. When we were hunter-gatherers it was a tactic to paid off. But in today's highly individualized world where every man is an island, the more extreme mental varieties get ejected out of society and onto the streets. It's just a reality of the human condition. As long as we keep pretending all humans are born equal, with equal capacities, and all they need is to get a job, this problem will persist.

Here's an anecdote. One of the smartest people I've ever met, I met him at university. We grew to become quite close. He suffered from panic attacks. Social anxiety. He could barely manage being in class. Got top grades anyway. Sat at home studying by himself. After school he didn't get a job. Didn't even try. Knew he wouldn't be able to pull it off. Instead got involved with the mafia. Their rules are simple. As long as you get the job done they allow for eccentric types. Obviously it was a downward spiral from then on. After spending some time in jail he eventually ended up dying from a heroin overdose. This guy didn't stand a chance. His mind was his biggest enemy. But he was brilliant. There's no denying that. And he was a brilliant programmer at the height on the IT-boom. In spite of his brains he failed to capitalize on that at all. I didn't have even close to his brains. And I prospered.
 
I think it's safe to say that all homeless people suffer from a variety of mental disorders. Everything from panic attacks, PTSD, bi-polar disorder to ADHD. They're not dependable, and they know they're not. Add to that substance abuse. Nobody who has tried and failed their entire lives wants to try yet again and fail again. These people aren't necessarily stupid. Maybe this guy Grant knows that if he takes a job, the next thing that happens is that he fucks up again. And he'll feel even worse than if he'd not even try. He knows himself.
Many perhaps but not all. The one's willing to die on a cold night rather than seek shelter, likely. Plenty of people who choose to be homeless. I think they could generally be called world travelers. If you agree with this then we are only talking about the financial component and how an individual values their time. In this light it's easier to see that there are people who use money as a means of maintaining their existence rather than a lifestyle or more accurately, a stylish life.
I go any further and we start to question who the crazy ones are.
 
I think it's safe to say that all homeless people suffer from a variety of mental disorders.

You're correct, that's a perfectly safe thing to say, in the sense that you will suffer no unpleasant consequences from saying it. The saying of it (and, what I really mean is, the believing of it) suggests to me that you have very little grasp of what life is like in the US. For example, someone in a country with low- or no-cost, widely available health care might make the sweeping statement that no one dies from lack of access to medical care, so if someone didn't receive it, it must be because they refused the help that was available. Fine for your country, not true in ours. Same with university education. If your country offers free or almost-free university education to everyone, then you'd conclude that if someone says they can't attend a university because of the cost, they're delusional. True in your country, not in ours.

There are more than a million homeless children in the US. They may develop psychological issues as a result of being homeless, or malnourished, or neglected, or chronically ill, but it certainly isn't their mental issues that have made them homeless. It is the lack of money. Period. Likewise adults who have lost their jobs and are ineligible for unemployment benefits (a large number of people, by the way) and can't get a new job right away. When the rent comes due and you don't have the money, out you go. Some people become homeless as a result of the actions of someone else. For example, domestic violence: if someone points a gun at you and tells you to clear out of the apartment or wind up dead, I bet you're going to gather your stuff and hit the road, job or no job, money or no money.

I suppose it is very difficult for people in countries with extensive social programs and safety nets to comprehend what life is like in a place like this, where food, shelter, and health care are all available at a price, and if you don't have the cash, too bad for you. Yes, we have SOME free stuff, like free food from churches and food pantries and such. But they are all volunteer and scattered around what is a quite large country. Someone who's hungry in rural Indiana isn't getting fed by a Salvation Army kitchen in St. Louis. Same with shelter. Some places have what are called Section 8 vouchers, so that a landlord who rents to low- or no-income people will get paid rent. Section 8 housing tends to be, let's just say, sub-standard, and even at that, there is not enough tax revenue to support all the people who are eligible for it. The point is, that in some countries I think the idea is to match up what people need with what resources are available and get everyone to a certain standard of living. In the US, the paradigm has been to set aside a small amount of money to assist SOME people in SOME way, and the rest are just out of luck. That system must be really difficult to comprehend for those who live in the other kind of place.
 
Genuinely universal healthcare would go a LONG way towards solving the homelessness issue - particularly if psychiatric and psychological care is included. Just providing people who need them with free prescription medications would help a lot.

That's assuming they'll take it. Many won't, certainly not the paranoid ones.

Oh, well, if 'many' won't, that entirely and completely justifies us in throwing the rest under the bus.

Any proposed solution that helps, but fails to completely solve the entire problem, must clearly be rejected outright. :rolleyesa:

You really need to learn to spot the difference between a justification and a rationalisation, Loren. It is a subtle, but very important distinction.
Bilby, IMO what Loren meant is that homeless folks affected by a chronic and acute mental illness cannot be compelled to stay on their prescribed regimen of drugs. They can only be encouraged to do so.It is already difficult in a controlled environment exercised by family members who live with their affected loved one to insure he/she does not quit their prescribed meds.

Essentially, mentally ill homeless persons would have to be relocated in a home first and foremost and placed under daily monitoring to insure they remain on their drug regimen. Which is the step taken in the State of Utah extended to all homeless persons where they provide first and foremost a home. Once the homeless person is housed, social services will identify which was the original cause of the state of homelessness and remedy to it in order to equip the person or homeless family with the means to support their own basic living expenses and remain off the streets.

The starting off step specifically addressing mental ill homeless persons requires they voluntary enter the program. Which leaves out those same category of persons who refuse out of the program. The only measure left then would be (tragically) to institutionalize them and keep them in an institution until the drugs take effect. Once they take effect, the individual can rationally process the benefits of entering the program while he/she is to be monitored on a long term basis. In the US, short of a mentally ill person threatening to harm oneself or others, they cannot be institutionalized. The "best" that can be done is a 72 hour psy hold for medical evaluation.
 
Bilby, IMO what Loren meant is that homeless folks affected by a chronic and acute mental illness cannot be compelled to stay on their prescribed regimen of drugs. They can only be encouraged to do so.It is already difficult in a controlled environment exercised by family members who live with their affected loved one to insure he/she does not quit their prescribed meds.

Essentially, mentally ill homeless persons would have to be relocated in a home first and foremost and placed under daily monitoring to insure they remain on their drug regimen. Which is the step taken in the State of Utah extended to all homeless persons where they provide first and foremost a home. Once the homeless person is housed, social services will identify which was the original cause of the state of homelessness and remedy to it in order to equip the person or homeless family with the means to support their own basic living expenses and remain off the streets.

The starting off step specifically addressing mental ill homeless persons requires they voluntary enter the program. Which leaves out those same category of persons who refuse out of the program. The only measure left then would be (tragically) to institutionalize them and keep them in an institution until the drugs take effect. Once they take effect, the individual can rationally process the benefits of entering the program while he/she is to be monitored on a long term basis. In the US, short of a mentally ill person threatening to harm oneself or others, they cannot be institutionalized. The "best" that can be done is a 72 hour psy hold for medical evaluation.

I'm glad someone gets it!
 
Then Loren should have titled this discussion about the mentally ill and not the homeless.

Entire families are living in their cars all across the nation and not because they are mentally ill.
 
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Who Is Homeless?

PERSONS WITH MENTAL ILLNESS

Persons with severe mental illness represented about 26 percent of all sheltered homeless persons (Annual Homeless Assessment Report to Congress, 2008). According to the Federal Task Force on Homelessness and Severe Mental Illness, only 5-7% of homeless persons with mental illness require institutionalization; most can live in the community with the appropriate supportive housing options (Federal Task Force on Homelessness and Severe Mental Illness, 1992). For more information, see our fact sheet on Mental Illness and Homelessness. The 23 cities that provided information reported that 26 percent of their homeless population suffered from a serious mental illness. By contrast, only six percent of the U.S. population suffers from a serious mental illness (U.S. Conference of Mayors 2008).
 
Bilby, IMO what Loren meant is that homeless folks affected by a chronic and acute mental illness cannot be compelled to stay on their prescribed regimen of drugs. They can only be encouraged to do so.It is already difficult in a controlled environment exercised by family members who live with their affected loved one to insure he/she does not quit their prescribed meds.

Essentially, mentally ill homeless persons would have to be relocated in a home first and foremost and placed under daily monitoring to insure they remain on their drug regimen. Which is the step taken in the State of Utah extended to all homeless persons where they provide first and foremost a home. Once the homeless person is housed, social services will identify which was the original cause of the state of homelessness and remedy to it in order to equip the person or homeless family with the means to support their own basic living expenses and remain off the streets.

The starting off step specifically addressing mental ill homeless persons requires they voluntary enter the program. Which leaves out those same category of persons who refuse out of the program. The only measure left then would be (tragically) to institutionalize them and keep them in an institution until the drugs take effect. Once they take effect, the individual can rationally process the benefits of entering the program while he/she is to be monitored on a long term basis. In the US, short of a mentally ill person threatening to harm oneself or others, they cannot be institutionalized. The "best" that can be done is a 72 hour psy hold for medical evaluation.

I'm glad someone gets it!

All of this for this crazy story. It is still a matter of ONE DATA POINT selectively offered for our "consideration" by Loren. The case in the original story is not representative of any but a very tiny fraction of our homeless population. Sabine expanded a bit on the theme of people with mental disturbances. This also is not the norm for the homeless population. We keep hearing that there is no way to effectively deal with homelessness. It is really an excuse for the value system our media feeds us. Our public airways are almost entirely devoted to advertising. The average homeless person is simply a loser in the game of Capitalism. As long as there is just one rigid system and profit motive is at its base, its center, and its top, some people are the recipients of circumstances beyond their ability to cope with and there is no help on the way for them.

Our billionaires keep hacking away at our social systems and proudly letting folks like Loren tell us that the LOSERS like being losers. Sabine's contribution was well meaning and aimed at those that might more closely align with the man in the article, but for many, the root cause is the downward spiral one might experience in a divorce, or a job loss, or being cheated on a mortgage or perhaps a student loan. These things have such major impacts on working people that often, when they occur, mental disturbances follow. People become unemployable, and homeless at the same time. If you listen to Loren, you will know to cheer up and learn to like it. Much of the mental problems associated with homelessness are the result of being forced to live in the moment, never knowing where your next meal is coming from, never knowing there is a safe comfortable place for you to sleep, and never hearing an encouraging word, not having a change of clothes, not being able to to keep clean. When your nervous system is constantly involved in dealing with threatening conditions, it is not long till you find yourself at least slightly crazy. The very things that happen to a homeless person, especially one who does not know where to find shelter parallel the results of methods used to torture people who are locked up. In short, their lives are torturous and over time, their cognitive processes start to fail and they become progressively less capable of coping.

I am unimpressed with Loren's exemplar and find it a total disconnect with the realities of the average homeless person's life.
 
All of this for this crazy story. It is still a matter of ONE DATA POINT selectively offered for our "consideration" by Loren.

The OP has one data point. We have another added by someone on this thread.

The case in the original story is not representative of any but a very tiny fraction of our homeless population. Sabine expanded a bit on the theme of people with mental disturbances. This also is not the norm for the homeless population. We keep hearing that there is no way to effectively deal with homelessness. It is really an excuse for the value system our media feeds us. Our public airways are almost entirely devoted to advertising. The average homeless person is simply a loser in the game of Capitalism. As long as there is just one rigid system and profit motive is at its base, its center, and its top, some people are the recipients of circumstances beyond their ability to cope with and there is no help on the way for them.

The amount of money he has is not representative, the basic pattern is very common.

Our billionaires keep hacking away at our social systems and proudly letting folks like Loren tell us that the LOSERS like being losers. Sabine's contribution was well meaning and aimed at those that might more closely align with the man in the article, but for many, the root cause is the downward spiral one might experience in a divorce, or a job loss, or being cheated on a mortgage or perhaps a student loan. These things have such major impacts on working people that often, when they occur, mental disturbances follow.

Schizophrenia is not caused by normal life events. As much as you would like all the problems of the world to be caused by the rich that's not how it works.

I am unimpressed with Loren's exemplar and find it a total disconnect with the realities of the average homeless person's life.

Sure, he's got access to more money than the average homeless person. Staying on the streets because they are afraid to come in is common, though.
 
Bilby, IMO what Loren meant is that homeless folks affected by a chronic and acute mental illness cannot be compelled to stay on their prescribed regimen of drugs. They can only be encouraged to do so.It is already difficult in a controlled environment exercised by family members who live with their affected loved one to insure he/she does not quit their prescribed meds.

Essentially, mentally ill homeless persons would have to be relocated in a home first and foremost and placed under daily monitoring to insure they remain on their drug regimen. Which is the step taken in the State of Utah extended to all homeless persons where they provide first and foremost a home. Once the homeless person is housed, social services will identify which was the original cause of the state of homelessness and remedy to it in order to equip the person or homeless family with the means to support their own basic living expenses and remain off the streets.

The starting off step specifically addressing mental ill homeless persons requires they voluntary enter the program. Which leaves out those same category of persons who refuse out of the program. The only measure left then would be (tragically) to institutionalize them and keep them in an institution until the drugs take effect. Once they take effect, the individual can rationally process the benefits of entering the program while he/she is to be monitored on a long term basis. In the US, short of a mentally ill person threatening to harm oneself or others, they cannot be institutionalized. The "best" that can be done is a 72 hour psy hold for medical evaluation.

I'm glad someone gets it!

Oh, I 'get it' perfectly. The difference is, I don't see this issue that effects some homeless people with mental illness as an excuse to do bugger all to help the rest - the ones who would take their medication if they could afford it.

Nor is the fact that some homeless people are homeless because they are mentally ill an excuse to write off those whose mental illness is due in large part to their predicament; nor an excuse to wash our hands of the problem of homeless people who are psychiatrically healthy.

I don't deny that many psychiatric patients refuse medication. I do take offense at Loren using this as an excuse to belittle the problems of all homeless people.
 
Then Loren should have titled this discussion about the mentally ill and not the homeless.

Entire families are living in their cars all across the nation and not because they are mentally ill.
Athena, I am well aware of that. Those families are more than willing to receive assistance in getting back on their feet.

However, the figures from 2010 regarding mentally ill homeless persons and homeless persons with a chronic substance abuse issue are certainly not negligible :

http://homeless.samhsa.gov/ResourceFiles/hrc_factsheet.pdf

Mental Illness & Substance Use
On a given night in January 2010iv:
• 26.2% of all sheltered persons who were homeless had a severe mental illness
• 34.7% of all sheltered adults who were homeless had chronic substance use issues

Those figures concern data gathered in homeless shelters only. Meaning that it does not include mentally ill persons and substance abuse persons who are homeless but do not use shelters.

When it comes to gathering data outside of shelters, IMO it would be very difficult to do so with homeless persons who are vagrant. Unlike with those who live in "communities" such as tent cities.Unfortunately, the city of Tampa and Pinellas County have dismantled those tent cities, sending cops to tear them down and kicking those folks out of their "homes". Increasing the vagrant phenomenon throughout Tampa Bay. Added to that, prohibiting ambulant soup kitchens and laws penalizing overnight stay in parks and just about every public area.

When homeless folks remain within a community such as a tent city, it is easier to reach out to them and get information out to them. It is also easier for social services and local charities (Like Metropolitan Ministries) to identify which individuals are most susceptible to recover from homelessness by voluntary entering a recovery program.
 
http://www.businessinsider.com/leo-the-homeless-coder-2014-5

The guy has made $10k in a few weeks--but he doesn't want to come in off the streets.
Homelessness is not that "hard to solve" if in your country other States emulate the 10 year Plan of Utah :

http://www.impacthomelessness.org/resources/docs/eis/Utah-Report-on-homelessness2013.pdf

It is a long document to read but definitely worth to read to correct any notion or belief that homelessness cannot be resolved. To correct any belief that because specific categories (already covered by me in this thread) are resistant to voluntary accept assistance, it means that "homelessness is hard to resolve".
 
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