Why homelessness is hard to solve

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'd just give them a hamburger.

 

[funinspace]

I got some interesting excuses. It seems many homeless are allergic to the ingredients in McDonalds food. Not just hamburgers, but apparently the whole entire menu. I offered it many times, I kept that book until I graduated.

I suspect you aren't trying for the broad brush...but I thought I'd point out that I've had a couple people gladly accept my buying them food from the grocery store I was about to go into, as I cam back to them.

Adding in something not really mentioned so far. Most big cities have charitable organizations that do work real hard to help people transition from homelessness. Yeah it doesn't always work, but I find giving to such organizations better than handing out money randomly. One good group IMPOV:
http://www.joinpdx.com/

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I got some interesting excuses. It seems many homeless are allergic to the ingredients in McDonalds food. Not just hamburgers, but apparently the whole entire menu. I offered it many times, I kept that book until I graduated.

I suspect you aren't trying for the broad brush...but I thought I'd point out that I've had a couple people gladly accept my buying them food from the grocery store I was about to go into, as I cam back to them.

The one thing I thought of was that a coupon book could count as cash to a homeless person who wants drugs. Better to give them food (which can still be traded, however, has a short life left) than anything that has face value (even if only at McDonalds or Itchy and Scratchy Land).

Adding in something not really mentioned so far. Most big cities have charitable organizations that do work real hard to help people transition from homelessness. Yeah it doesn't always work, but I find giving to such organizations better than handing out money randomly. One good group IMPOV:
http://www.joinpdx.com/

Giving to a person, you have no idea what their story is. A charity group, however, does have an agenda and you can give to one with an agenda you agree with.

 

[Kharakov]

I got some interesting excuses. It seems many homeless are allergic to the ingredients in McDonalds food. Not just hamburgers, but apparently the whole entire menu. I offered it many times, I kept that book until I graduated.

Wow. You're either an asshole or you really didn't think that one through. Did you even stop and think about all the fucking McDonalds' food they'd eaten out of dumpsters and trash cans?

I suspect you aren't trying for the broad brush...but I thought I'd point out that I've had a couple people gladly accept my buying them food from the grocery store I was about to go into, as I cam back to them.

Yeah. When you've eaten tons of "free" McDonalds, grocery store food is pretty fucking awesome.

Anyway, back to the Harvestdancer's post about homeless people "being allergic" to McDonalds:

That's the kind of example that stupid right wing nutjobs get blasted for on the Daily Show, while highly intelligent conservatives who care about the welfare of others as long as it doesn't cost them a cent get praise for this type of thinking on the Colbert Report.

I mean, why actually think about why a homeless person does something when you can just assume something about them? It's not like you're homeless, or going to be anytime soon, so really, do they matter to you as long as they aren't on your lawn? Isn't it better just to see them as evil opportunists trying to take your hard earned riches away from you?

All of this is far beyond my resources and abilities. If I try to help them, it does them little good and diminishes my standard of living.

You're standard of living is higher having made the decision not to help them then it was when you were helping them?

What exactly has changed in your life?

Is it mainly mental, or is it more physical, along the lines of 'you don't have to sweep as much crap off your sidewalks?'

Is there anything you've done in your life that contributed to someone becoming mentally ill, and subsequently homeless?

 

[funinspace]

I suspect you aren't trying for the broad brush...but I thought I'd point out that I've had a couple people gladly accept my buying them food from the grocery store I was about to go into, as I cam back to them.

Yeah. When you've eaten tons of "free" McDonalds, grocery store food is pretty fucking awesome.

With all your snarky derision and assumptions of several people on this thread, its hard to tell where the crap stops... Anywho, not that I should have to even say it...I have a regular auto donation to that JOIN group I mentioned 2 posts above; and my wife and I have volunteered with some of their efforts.

PS Others can speak for themselves...

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Wow. You're either an asshole or you really didn't think that one through. Did you even stop and think about all the fucking McDonalds' food they'd eaten out of dumpsters and trash cans?

This may sound strange to you, but a freshly prepared whatever straight from the kitchen is probably better than a half-eaten, cold, and dirty same item from the trash can. Plus these gift certificates can be used to order anything from the menu, anything at all. So if he spent the last few days eating nothing but stale french fries, he doesn't have to order the french fries.

Of course, trying to find a way to help that limits the ability to purchase alcohol or drugs makes me an asshole.

Anyway, back to the Harvestdancer's post about homeless people "being allergic" to McDonalds:

That's the kind of example that stupid right wing nutjobs get blasted for on the Daily Show, while highly intelligent conservatives who care about the welfare of others as long as it doesn't cost them a cent get praise for this type of thinking on the Colbert Report.

I mean, why actually think about why a homeless person does something when you can just assume something about them? It's not like you're homeless, or going to be anytime soon, so really, do they matter to you as long as they aren't on your lawn? Isn't it better just to see them as evil opportunists trying to take your hard earned riches away from you?

You'd have a point, if I wasn't told directly "no I'm allergic to that stuff." I have suspicions why they really said that, but I didn't state them in this thread. Of course by not saying "they just wanted money to buy drugs" that means I'm seeing them as evil opportunists. I didn't give any motives in my post, so of course I'm making assumptions about their motives.

Good grief.

I think you'd be better served by responding to what I wrote instead of what you read.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think I can understand where the homeless guy is coming from. Before I continue, I will state that this is my brother and my opinion on my brother, not a generalised opinion.

My brother is paranoid about the government knowing anything about him. IMO the paranoia comes from having smoked too much weed for pretty much the last 30 years (he is 46). Up until about 5 years ago he refused to own a bank account, preferring to be paid in cash. He didn't submit a tax return for many a year, in fact I don't think he has ever filed one. Until a couple of years ago, he would drive, but didn't hold a drivers licence, until he was caught for driving without a licence. He was, and is, completely adverse to any sort of identification that could (in his words and mind) assist the government in locating him. He has all of his mail sent to our parents house. Nothing is ever delivered to his residence.

It is possible that the gentleman in the article may be of a similar mindset. Maybe he doesn't want to be 'found' and so prefers to live as he is.

Congrats on continuing to learn and develop, and maybe that will help him to ease back into society. Until then, it is his decision and who are we, as a society, to convince him otherwise?

Nothing in what you say is a surprise to me, although many on here will deny that the primary cause of homelessness is mental illness.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem isn't homelessness, it's houselessness. Home is mom baking pies and dad and uncle Joe practicing politics on the porch and grandma sneaking a nip from the sherry bottle. Thats home.

What people living outdoors need is an indoors to go to. And nothing is keeping us as society from providing shelter but the lack of will to give a shit about people.

Did that article go in one ear and out the other?

And what about gmbteach's post?

 

[Bronzeage]

You're standard of living is higher having made the decision not to help them then it was when you were helping them?

What exactly has changed in your life?

Is it mainly mental, or is it more physical, along the lines of 'you don't have to sweep as much crap off your sidewalks?'

Is there anything you've done in your life that contributed to someone becoming mentally ill, and subsequently homeless?

I'll make you a deal. Send me your address and the next time I find a man sleeping on my door step, I'll bundle him up and drop him off at your door step.

When I had a comfortable house in the suburbs and my only contact with homeless people was slipping them a couple dollar when one waved his "Will work for food" sign, as I waited for the light to turn green, I had a lot more compassion.

Today things are different. I am an urban pioneer. I live and make a living off of my homestead. I depend upon people coming to my business everyday and spending money. Homeless people sleeping at the edge of the parking lot, or begging for loose change, discourages customers. I cannot afford to lose a single customer.

However, I am open minded and always ready to listen to good ideas. Please tell me what you do to relieve the homeless problem in your neighborhood and I will give it all a very careful consideration.

 

[dx713]

I don't mind them wanting money.
Of course, they'll say it's for food, it's the only way to get some with the average Christian mentality that one has to suffer to get nice things.
But if I want to be nice to them, I have no problem giving some money:
1) they might really need it. Food isn't the only need of a homeless. What about clothes, for the most obvious? Clothes donations are often devoid of underwear...
2) if they really think they need booze more than food, it's their choice. I'm just trying to be nice, not to solve all their problems, so if they find their problems more bearable with booze and empty stomach than the reverse, hey, it's their own experience, who am I to deny it?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Seriously, there are individuals who choose to be homeless. I see nothing wrong with that. I've lived out of the back of a pick-up truck for six months by choice. I will always cherish that time.

And Grand, who holds McConlogue in the same regard, says he's happy.

I think a lot of people missed the last statement in the article, the happy part.

I'm happy. People try to convince me I'm not because I live an unconventional life. That's the only time I'm unhappy, when people won't mind their own business.

I give money to the homeless from time to time. It's unconditional. I'm not your judge.

We had a guy working at Yosemite for about 18 months as a laborer that was for all intents and purposes homeless by our standards. More specifically, he was a wanderer. He had housing in the park but come the three day weekend (we worked four tens), he'd wander off into the back country. I suppose you could call it camping just not in the traditional sense in that regardless of what equipment he had available, he was sleeping in the back country. He was a meth addict and suffered psychosis that I believe was induced by the meth. He heard voices. It was interesting to hear him explain it, that the voices were every bit as real as mine. That they were not voices in his head as some might describe it, but quite literally undeniably voices. He talked about his travels, all on foot. Walked about a third of the Pacific Crest Trail. Was hellbent on getting up to Glacier National Park, and did just as soon as he quit, made a beeline for it. I found myself somewhat jealous of his life, the traveling part and the fortitude to just go wherever he wanted without concern. No mail, no taxes, very little tethering him to society.
I recall one morning I gave him seven dollars as I knew he had been flat broke for three days. He debated whether he should buy coffee or cigarettes. He asked me if I had a few more dollars so he could buy both. The nerve I thought. I give this guy seven bucks thinking he must be quite hungry and all he's concerned about is coffee and cigarettes. I didn't have anymore small bills but if I had to do over again, I would have taken the seven back and given him a twenty.

I wonder sometimes if people are so concerned about helping the homeless or feeling good about themselves.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Nothing in what you say is a surprise to me, although many on here will deny that the primary cause of homelessness is mental illness.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem isn't homelessness, it's houselessness. Home is mom baking pies and dad and uncle Joe practicing politics on the porch and grandma sneaking a nip from the sherry bottle. Thats home.

What people living outdoors need is an indoors to go to. And nothing is keeping us as society from providing shelter but the lack of will to give a shit about people.

Did that article go in one ear and out the other?

And what about gmbteach's post?

Loren

If I go camping and sleep in bag for night or week or all summer, I am not houseless, I am making a decision to sleep outside.

If I have no address, no shelter and no choice, then I am houseless, shelterless, and in need.

 

[bilby]

Nothing in what you say is a surprise to me, although many on here will deny that the primary cause of homelessness is mental illness.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem isn't homelessness, it's houselessness. Home is mom baking pies and dad and uncle Joe practicing politics on the porch and grandma sneaking a nip from the sherry bottle. Thats home.

What people living outdoors need is an indoors to go to. And nothing is keeping us as society from providing shelter but the lack of will to give a shit about people.

Did that article go in one ear and out the other?

And what about gmbteach's post?

The one where she explicitly pointed out that she was talking about one individual (who, by the way, is not homeless, but who chooses to avoid interactions with government, and takes that avoidance to what most would consider a paranoid degree), and that she was NOT making any kind of generalisation?

What about it?

The interesting part, for me, is that this person is able to avoid these interactions without recourse to homelessness; something that he is able to do due to a network of friends, and due to the implicit support of society - including the government he fears - to protect him against the kinds of disasters that would likely befall a similar individual in the USA; if he is injured, or falls ill, he has access to free healthcare, and need provide only the most minimal information to the Emergency Room in order to claim it. Nobody is going to take his rent money or garnish his wages to pay some huge medical bill.

Genuinely universal healthcare would go a LONG way towards solving the homelessness issue - particularly if psychiatric and psychological care is included. Just providing people who need them with free prescription medications would help a lot.

 

[Bronzeage]

I don't mind them wanting money.
Of course, they'll say it's for food, it's the only way to get some with the average Christian mentality that one has to suffer to get nice things.
But if I want to be nice to them, I have no problem giving some money:
1) they might really need it. Food isn't the only need of a homeless. What about clothes, for the most obvious? Clothes donations are often devoid of underwear...
2) if they really think they need booze more than food, it's their choice. I'm just trying to be nice, not to solve all their problems, so if they find their problems more bearable with booze and empty stomach than the reverse, hey, it's their own experience, who am I to deny it?

Christian mentality with giving is to "not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing". A Christian giver is not supposed to be concerned with what the other person will do with the money. If the person has to earn their gift, it's not a gift.

 

[dx713]

I don't mind them wanting money.
Of course, they'll say it's for food, it's the only way to get some with the average Christian mentality that one has to suffer to get nice things.
But if I want to be nice to them, I have no problem giving some money:
1) they might really need it. Food isn't the only need of a homeless. What about clothes, for the most obvious? Clothes donations are often devoid of underwear...
2) if they really think they need booze more than food, it's their choice. I'm just trying to be nice, not to solve all their problems, so if they find their problems more bearable with booze and empty stomach than the reverse, hey, it's their own experience, who am I to deny it?

Christian mentality with giving is to "not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing". A Christian giver is not supposed to be concerned with what the other person will do with the money. If the person has to earn their gift, it's not a gift.

Agreed, my paintbrush was too wide.
I was refering to the belief that god has put us on earth to suffer for Adam and Eve sin, and that this suffering is part of what will earn us our place in heaven. I've often see, even in a secular country like mine, this belief slip into the unconscious and give rise to objections with people getting things for seemingly nothing. "But, some lazy guy is going to get it for free, that's so unfair!" is a common objection here for a lot of debates about healthcare or any other form of social net. And for a lot of people I know, that's why they don't give to homeless. Not because they can't afford it, but because the homeless haven't earned it. Food is seen differently because it keeps one alive and cannot be hoarded...

 

[Bronzeage]

I don't mind them wanting money.
Of course, they'll say it's for food, it's the only way to get some with the average Christian mentality that one has to suffer to get nice things.
But if I want to be nice to them, I have no problem giving some money:
1) they might really need it. Food isn't the only need of a homeless. What about clothes, for the most obvious? Clothes donations are often devoid of underwear...
2) if they really think they need booze more than food, it's their choice. I'm just trying to be nice, not to solve all their problems, so if they find their problems more bearable with booze and empty stomach than the reverse, hey, it's their own experience, who am I to deny it?

Christian mentality with giving is to "not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing". A Christian giver is not supposed to be concerned with what the other person will do with the money. If the person has to earn their gift, it's not a gift.

Agreed, my paintbrush was too wide.
I was refering to the belief that god has put us on earth to suffer for Adam and Eve sin, and that this suffering is part of what will earn us our place in heaven. I've often see, even in a secular country like mine, this belief slip into the unconscious and give rise to objections with people getting things for seemingly nothing. "But, some lazy guy is going to get it for free, that's so unfair!" is a common objection here for a lot of debates about healthcare or any other form of social net. And for a lot of people I know, that's why they don't give to homeless. Not because they can't afford it, but because the homeless haven't earned it. Food is seen differently because it keeps one alive and cannot be hoarded...

I don't remember that particular Sunday School lesson, but it sounds vaguely Catholic, veil of tears, mea culpa, and all that stuff.

There is a paradox in all this. The US is a rich nation and most of agree that a person can do well for themselves, if they have the determination. The drug addict stop taking drugs and the wino could stop drinking. The money spent on their vice , could be channeled to more productive investments. It's all possible.

Then, the rest of us find it hard to escape a "there but by the grace of PYL, go I." This is what impels us to give part of our wealth to someone who we left behind. Our rational mind knows our gift will not improve his situation, so the end result is it relieves our guilt and for a little while we feel better about ourselves, making this act of charity a selfish act which benefits only ourselves.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing in what you say is a surprise to me, although many on here will deny that the primary cause of homelessness is mental illness.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem isn't homelessness, it's houselessness. Home is mom baking pies and dad and uncle Joe practicing politics on the porch and grandma sneaking a nip from the sherry bottle. Thats home.

What people living outdoors need is an indoors to go to. And nothing is keeping us as society from providing shelter but the lack of will to give a shit about people.

Did that article go in one ear and out the other?

And what about gmbteach's post?

Loren

If I go camping and sleep in bag for night or week or all summer, I am not houseless, I am making a decision to sleep outside.

If I have no address, no shelter and no choice, then I am houseless, shelterless, and in need.

The people mentioned above would be considered homeless, not merely choosing to sleep outside.

- - - Updated - - -

Genuinely universal healthcare would go a LONG way towards solving the homelessness issue - particularly if psychiatric and psychological care is included. Just providing people who need them with free prescription medications would help a lot.

That's assuming they'll take it. Many won't, certainly not the paranoid ones.

 

[bilby]

Genuinely universal healthcare would go a LONG way towards solving the homelessness issue - particularly if psychiatric and psychological care is included. Just providing people who need them with free prescription medications would help a lot.

That's assuming they'll take it. Many won't, certainly not the paranoid ones.

Oh, well, if 'many' won't, that entirely and completely justifies us in throwing the rest under the bus.

Any proposed solution that helps, but fails to completely solve the entire problem, must clearly be rejected outright.

You really need to learn to spot the difference between a justification and a rationalisation, Loren. It is a subtle, but very important distinction.

 

[gmbteach]

Genuinely universal healthcare would go a LONG way towards solving the homelessness issue - particularly if psychiatric and psychological care is included. Just providing people who need them with free prescription medications would help a lot.

That's assuming they'll take it. Many won't, certainly not the paranoid ones.

Oh, well, if 'many' won't, that entirely and completely justifies us in throwing the rest under the bus.

Any proposed solution that helps, but fails to completely solve the entire problem, must clearly be rejected outright.

You really need to learn to spot the difference between a justification and a rationalisation, Loren. It is a subtle, but very important distinction.

Exactly, My brother chooses to 'medicate' himself and I am sorry to say, at times I want to push him under the bus. He had (can no longer say HAS) the potential to really make a go of his life in electronics and computers, which unfortunately he has ruined.

As I have mentioned, and Bilby has expanded on, he chooses to live on the fringes of society. I sincerely believe that he would at times prefer to be homeless, or at the very least, of no fixed abode.

Given medication and a clean up, he MAY improve.

 

[gmbteach]

On a side note:

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/24179635/from-homeless-to-top-of-the-class/

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Genuinely universal healthcare would go a LONG way towards solving the homelessness issue - particularly if psychiatric and psychological care is included. Just providing people who need them with free prescription medications would help a lot.

That's assuming they'll take it. Many won't, certainly not the paranoid ones.

Oh, well, if 'many' won't, that entirely and completely justifies us in throwing the rest under the bus.

Any proposed solution that helps, but fails to completely solve the entire problem, must clearly be rejected outright.

You really need to learn to spot the difference between a justification and a rationalisation, Loren. It is a subtle, but very important distinction.

We try to help them. We shouldn't be blamed for failing to help those that don't want help.