Why is God at war with it's creation?

[blastula]

So why does God kill?

to remove evil doer from earth and bring other people

Then God's rationale is just like any other murdering dictator.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

So if God kills to remove Evil from the Earth, but mankind is inherently a source of Evil, god's killing is kind of pointless incompetence, what?

- - - Updated - - -

do scientist believe that ape, chimp will learn to speak language and write like human?

Have you ever heard from the scientists working with, say, Koko?

if you give koko trillions trillions years he wont talk, he NEED talking software in his brain that would gave him ability to talk

god put software in human brain

Koko does not have the physical ability to speak, but is mentally capable of communicating. In sign language.

Koko is not the only ape who can do this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_(chimpanzee)

 

[Gila Guerilla]

Then we must be living in a world that Allah deems to be acceptable. People killing one another, fighting over which verses of the bibles are the ones to follow..

we kill because of god gave us free will

I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

Let's make some propositions:-
"God" can do any logically possible thing "he" wants.
"God" has all the power necessary to do those things.
"God" knows everything that has ever happened, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future.

This means that "God" knows when you will die for example, down to the last 'micro-pico-tiny' fraction of a second accuracy.
"God" knows exactly how you will die, be it of old age, or illness or murder at someone's hands or whatever.
Let's suppose that you will murder somebody, at some time in the future, (I hope not - this is just a thought exercise).

Now go back to imagining "God" creating the universe. Since "God" can see everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, then when "God" made the universe, and even before "he" made the universe, "he" had the ability to see everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen, including you murdering someone. That means that from the instant "God" supposedly created this universe, all that is in it, and at that will ever happen in it was decided, foreseen and known to 100% certainty and accuracy, (supposedly by this "God"). "God" could foresee you doing a murder to someone, seeing and knowing it to 100% certainty, back before the universe was real, back when "he" was imagining how "he" wanted it to be, (after all, "he must" have made it however "he" wanted it to be - not how "he" didn't want it to be).

I've imagined this type of scenario many times. As a comparison, I envisage it like "God" writing scripts for movies, many scripts which "he" could have brought to be. Many universes, with many different story lines, and and many different people and animals and so on, compared to the one in which we actually live.

What this means is that "God" chose the one universe, based on "his" all-seeing knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, and in that 'script' you do murder one day. Thus everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future happens by "God's" will. So you being a murderer would be "God's" will. Ever since before the universe began, you were cast in the role of murderer. There will be nothing that you can do, no act of will, which will prevent that. So where is your freewill? How are you able to end up as anything other than as a murderer

You might say, 'If it's "God's" will then it will be'. OK, but on the other hand, if your will is to not be a murderer, then you are stuck, because it is written in "God's" history, in "God's" script for the universe, that you will be a murderer. Then how can you claim to have free will? The only option you have is to do "God's" will - it cannot be varied. On this description of "God" and of "his" powers and abilities, freewill is just an illusion, you merely follow a script, like it or not.

It sounds a bit fancy and "nice" to claim that: "If "God" wills it, it will be". But the logical conclusion shatters the myth of real free agency. If the thought game is that you will do murder, what it means, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct), is that "God" did the murder, long ago, before "he" supposedly "created" the universe. It was a "decision" "God" made when writing the script for the history of the universe, the one which "he" picked, and when supposedly brought into reality.

On this analysis, what it also means is that "God" cannot have any hopes, or wishes or other plans. They were all laid down long ago, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct). "God' cannot hope that you will not become a murderer, because "he" knows to 100% certainty that you will. A being with 100% accurate knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, cannot hope for anything other than what it knows it will be.

If you wish to give that being, ("God"), the power to change the events in the universe by some means unknown to us, that "change" would be known to "God", right from before the moment(s) of "creation", as well. Even that was cast in an iron-clad and unchangeable history, set in the "mind" of "God" since "time zero". Thus even "God" could not make that atom / molecule bouncing around in the bottle of water, any different than what "he" supposedly envisaged before the universe was brought into being, before the atoms and molecules existed, before humans invented bottles, before the water came to be in the bottle, and before anything material supposedly came into existence.

So, Syed, you need to change the statement . . .

we kill because of god gave us free will

. . . to something like :-

we kill, because "God" decided that we would kill, oh so long ago, before we were born, and even before we were supposedly "created".

According to your belief, Syed - if I have it correct, the only will that can have been truly free, was that of the "God", and not of any thing, being or creature in the "created" universe.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Again, this Allah does not give us free will.

Sura 35:8
[h=2] For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do![/h]

 

[Syed]

So if God kills to remove Evil from the Earth, but mankind is inherently a source of Evil, god's killing is kind of pointless incompetence, what?

- - - Updated - - -

do scientist believe that ape, chimp will learn to speak language and write like human?

Have you ever heard from the scientists working with, say, Koko?

if you give koko trillions trillions years he wont talk, he NEED talking software in his brain that would gave him ability to talk

god put software in human brain

Actually Koko has the "software" to talk. What gorillas need to talk with a voice is a vocal cord like ours.

talking software in koko brain but not vocal cord makes no sense

who wrote koko talking software but forgot to gave him vocal cord?

 

[Syed]

Ancestry? Yes. DNA? Almost all of it. Parents? No.

why they stay retarded ?

They're not retarded. In fact apes are quite intelligent.

as much as you?

 

[Syed]

to remove evil doer from earth and bring other people

Then God's rationale is just like any other murdering dictator.

god really a dictator, without his dictatorship living creature cant survived by themselves, he provide us every thing

 

[blastula]

Then God's rationale is just like any other murdering dictator.

god really a dictator, without his dictatorship living creature cant survived by themselves, he provide us every thing

You would have made a good German in the 40s.

 

[Ford]

So if God kills to remove Evil from the Earth, but mankind is inherently a source of Evil, god's killing is kind of pointless incompetence, what?

- - - Updated - - -

do scientist believe that ape, chimp will learn to speak language and write like human?

Have you ever heard from the scientists working with, say, Koko?

if you give koko trillions trillions years he wont talk, he NEED talking software in his brain that would gave him ability to talk

god put software in human brain

Actually Koko has the "software" to talk. What gorillas need to talk with a voice is a vocal cord like ours.

talking software in koko brain but not vocal cord makes no sense

who wrote koko talking software but forgot to gave him vocal cord?

It makes perfect sense if you accept evolution as a fact (which it is) and understand that evolution does not produce perfect, predictable results. Nobody "forgot" to give apes vocal chords either. They have them (apes make noise) but not ones that work like ours.

Since you seem to be stuck on this stupid idea of software, perhaps it would help to explain it in software terms.


You and Koko are closely related. You share over 99 percent of your DNA with Koko. Your brain is a little bigger, you don't have as much hair, and your vocal chords are different, but you and the ape have the same basic hardware inside your head. The operating system is the same. If you looked at the code that makes your brain work, it would be virtually indistinguishable from Koko's. The difference is that your version of "Windows" (for lack of a better term) is more up to date. Koko has 3.0, while humans are operating on the latest version of Windows 10. Your computer is faster, can handle more tasks, and can do a few things that Koko's can't, but you and the gorilla are both based on the same program.

Ancestry? Yes. DNA? Almost all of it. Parents? No.



They're not retarded. In fact apes are quite intelligent.

as much as you?

Perhaps you should take some time and actually read up on apes?

 

[Syed]

Again, this Allah does not give us free will.

Sura 35:8
[h=2] For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do![/h]

this verse has nothing to do with free will


For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills.

allah guide some people and leaves to stray some people

allah guide people who are seeking guidance and leaves to stray those people who dont want guidance

this verse has nothing to do with free will

 

[Syed]

So if God kills to remove Evil from the Earth, but mankind is inherently a source of Evil, god's killing is kind of pointless incompetence, what?

- - - Updated - - -

do scientist believe that ape, chimp will learn to speak language and write like human?

Have you ever heard from the scientists working with, say, Koko?

if you give koko trillions trillions years he wont talk, he NEED talking software in his brain that would gave him ability to talk

god put software in human brain

Koko does not have the physical ability to speak, but is mentally capable of communicating. In sign language.

Koko is not the only ape who can do this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_(chimpanzee)

koko can learn LIMITED sign language and ape wont be able to teach his/her offspring sign language.

 

[Syed]

god really a dictator, without his dictatorship living creature cant survived by themselves, he provide us every thing

You would have made a good German in the 40s.

well, we are not talking about nazis right now

 

[OLDMAN]

Again, this Allah does not give us free will.

Sura 35:8
[h=2] For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do![/h]

this verse has nothing to do with free will


For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills.

allah guide some people and leaves to stray some people

allah guide people who are seeking guidance and leaves to stray those people who dont want guidance

this verse has nothing to do with free will

He wills and guides whom he wills.....not the other way around. Syed, you have a real problem. You can't seem to understand basic science, nor can you understand basic scripture. You have absolutely no chance of getting into heaven if your read scripture incorrectly. I think your software is faulty. Lucky for you there is no God.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Again, this Allah does not give us free will.

Sura 35:8
For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!

this verse has nothing to do with free will


For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills.

allah guide some people and leaves to stray some people

allah guide people who are seeking guidance and leaves to stray those people who dont want guidance

this verse has nothing to do with free will

This, and other notorious verses from the Quran have EVERYTHING to do with free will.

Sura 7:178-179 :

• "Whomsoever Allah guides, he is rightly guided, and whom he leads astray, they are the losers! We have created for Gehenna many jinns and men ..."
  
  "Do ye desire to guide him whom Allah led astray? Whom Allah leads away, you will find no way for him." (Sura 4:88).
  
  
  "If Allah willed he would have made mankind one nation, but they continue in their differences, excepting those on whom your Lord has mercy. To that end, he created them and perfectly is fulfilled the word of your Lord: 'I shall assuredly fill Gehenna with jinns and men altogether.'" (Sura 11:118-119).
  
  
  "Allah leads astray whomsoever he will and guides whomsoever he will." (Sura 14:4).
  

 

[Syed]

we kill because of god gave us free will

I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

Let's make some propositions:-
"God" can do any logically possible thing "he" wants.
"God" has all the power necessary to do those things.
"God" knows everything that has ever happened, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future.

This means that "God" knows when you will die for example, down to the last 'micro-pico-tiny' fraction of a second accuracy.
"God" knows exactly how you will die, be it of old age, or illness or murder at someone's hands or whatever.
Let's suppose that you will murder somebody, at some time in the future, (I hope not - this is just a thought exercise).

Now go back to imagining "God" creating the universe. Since "God" can see everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, then when "God" made the universe, and even before "he" made the universe, "he" had the ability to see everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen, including you murdering someone. That means that from the instant "God" supposedly created this universe, all that is in it, and at that will ever happen in it was decided, foreseen and known to 100% certainty and accuracy, (supposedly by this "God"). "God" could foresee you doing a murder to someone, seeing and knowing it to 100% certainty, back before the universe was real, back when "he" was imagining how "he" wanted it to be, (after all, "he must" have made it however "he" wanted it to be - not how "he" didn't want it to be).

I've imagined this type of scenario many times. As a comparison, I envisage it like "God" writing scripts for movies, many scripts which "he" could have brought to be. Many universes, with many different story lines, and and many different people and animals and so on, compared to the one in which we actually live.

What this means is that "God" chose the one universe, based on "his" all-seeing knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, and in that 'script' you do murder one day. Thus everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future happens by "God's" will. So you being a murderer would be "God's" will. Ever since before the universe began, you were cast in the role of murderer. There will be nothing that you can do, no act of will, which will prevent that. So where is your freewill? How are you able to end up as anything other than as a murderer

You might say, 'If it's "God's" will then it will be'. OK, but on the other hand, if your will is to not be a murderer, then you are stuck, because it is written in "God's" history, in "God's" script for the universe, that you will be a murderer. Then how can you claim to have free will? The only option you have is to do "God's" will - it cannot be varied. On this description of "God" and of "his" powers and abilities, freewill is just an illusion, you merely follow a script, like it or not.

It sounds a bit fancy and "nice" to claim that: "If "God" wills it, it will be". But the logical conclusion shatters the myth of real free agency. If the thought game is that you will do murder, what it means, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct), is that "God" did the murder, long ago, before "he" supposedly "created" the universe. It was a "decision" "God" made when writing the script for the history of the universe, the one which "he" picked, and when supposedly brought into reality.

On this analysis, what it also means is that "God" cannot have any hopes, or wishes or other plans. They were all laid down long ago, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct). "God' cannot hope that you will not become a murderer, because "he" knows to 100% certainty that you will. A being with 100% accurate knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, cannot hope for anything other than what it knows it will be.

If you wish to give that being, ("God"), the power to change the events in the universe by some means unknown to us, that "change" would be known to "God", right from before the moment(s) of "creation", as well. Even that was cast in an iron-clad and unchangeable history, set in the "mind" of "God" since "time zero". Thus even "God" could not make that atom / molecule bouncing around in the bottle of water, any different than what "he" supposedly envisaged before the universe was brought into being, before the atoms and molecules existed, before humans invented bottles, before the water came to be in the bottle, and before anything material supposedly came into existence.

So, Syed, you need to change the statement . . .

we kill because of god gave us free will

. . . to something like :-

we kill, because "God" decided that we would kill, oh so long ago, before we were born, and even before we were supposedly "created".

According to your belief, Syed - if I have it correct, the only will that can have been truly free, was that of the "God", and not of any thing, being or creature in the "created" universe.

brother

this is VERY good subject ''human's free will'' and ''god's knowledge'' how can they coexist?

would you start a new thread ?

and dont forget to post your original above post

 

[Syed]

So if God kills to remove Evil from the Earth, but mankind is inherently a source of Evil, god's killing is kind of pointless incompetence, what?

- - - Updated - - -

do scientist believe that ape, chimp will learn to speak language and write like human?

Have you ever heard from the scientists working with, say, Koko?

if you give koko trillions trillions years he wont talk, he NEED talking software in his brain that would gave him ability to talk

god put software in human brain

Actually Koko has the "software" to talk. What gorillas need to talk with a voice is a vocal cord like ours.

talking software in koko brain but not vocal cord makes no sense

who wrote koko talking software but forgot to gave him vocal cord?

It makes perfect sense if you accept evolution as a fact (which it is) and understand that evolution does not produce perfect, predictable results. Nobody "forgot" to give apes vocal chords either. They have them (apes make noise) but not ones that work like ours.

Since you seem to be stuck on this stupid idea of software, perhaps it would help to explain it in software terms.

i believe human have thousand of software one for talking, one for walking, one for seeing, one for hearing, one for writing

who wrote them ?

You and Koko are closely related. You share over 99 percent of your DNA with Koko.

ape and human are not the same thing, human can go to mars, ape may not know his own existence

 

[Ford]

i believe human have thousand of software one for talking, one for walking, one for seeing, one for hearing, one for writing

who wrote them ?

Nobody.

You and Koko are closely related. You share over 99 percent of your DNA with Koko.

ape and human are not the same thing, human can go to mars, ape may not know his own existence

Humans have not gone to Mars.

 

[bigfield]

So your god doesn't fix problems?


It's as if there are no gods and we have to solve our own problems.

he created heaven to fix it

this life is temporary, the next life will be straggle free

So your imaginary god doesn't fix anything. Instead, your religion offers the false promise of a happy afterlife.

 

[bilby]

Nobody.

You and Koko are closely related. You share over 99 percent of your DNA with Koko.

ape and human are not the same thing, human can go to mars, ape may not know his own existence

Humans have not gone to Mars.

Chimpanzees got to earth orbit before humans did. And dogs got there even before the chimps.

 

[Syed]

Nobody.

You and Koko are closely related. You share over 99 percent of your DNA with Koko.

ape and human are not the same thing, human can go to mars, ape may not know his own existence

Humans have not gone to Mars.

Chimpanzees got to earth orbit before humans did. And dogs got there even before the chimps.

you both wrong