Why is it so important for atheists that God does not exist?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Sure there were. But that does not invalidate the premise that people who share a common interest have the right to form their own community.

I agree. But if you're about somehow helping people, I don't see how religion is a plus. It's a net negative that does nothing to help your neighbor. Helping your neighbor helps your neighbor, not practicing religion.

I remember that old saying from my youth, "A family that prays together stays together." But that's backward at best. Families that remain "together" obviously have more vital common interests than praying.

 

[Ruth Harris]

I agree. But if you're about somehow helping people, I don't see how religion is a plus. It's a net negative that does nothing to help your neighbor. Helping your neighbor helps your neighbor, not practicing religion.

I agree - but not for the reason you think. Faith has nothing to do with helping people; that is not its purpose at all. I have always liked to help others even before I had my faith.

I remember that old saying from my youth, "A family that prays together stays together." But that's backward at best. Families that remain "together" obviously have more vital common interests than praying.

Once again, I agree but not for the expected reason. Do you know where this quote came from? I remembered reading something about it years ago so I went and hunted up the information. This was an advertising gimmick dreamed up by an agency to promote an old radio show hosted by Father Patrick Peyton in 1947. And it was very successful.

My son and I are very close. He is an agnostic. Do I wish he shared my faith? Of course. And I suspect that he wishes I shared his viewpoint too. But we both respect the other person's liberty to believe as they wish. But this has no impact on the love we have for each other nor the closeness of our relationship.

Ruth

 

[James Brown]

I expect the Phelps clan pray together a lot.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

My son and I are very close. He is an agnostic. Do I wish he shared my faith? Of course. And I suspect that he wishes I shared his viewpoint too. But we both respect the other person's liberty to believe as they wish. But this has no impact on the love we have for each other nor the closeness of our relationship.

That's good. That's the way it should be imho.

I was only ever religious because everyone else was. Didn't know a single person who wasn't. All the important things that ever happened in my life were rational experiences and had zip to do with religion.

I do enjoy observing religious behavior in others, however, because it seems so incredibly fantastic to see otherwise rational people engaging in what I call group psychosis. I still hold that it is merely a vestige of our human past when bipolar behavior in humans was heavily selected for, conferring survival advantage.

It's impossible for me today to intelligently entertain the thought that there might be invisible spacemen interested in my and everyone else's sex organs. But that makes sense to lots of folk so there must be a rational explanation for their odd behavior.

 

[Jobar]

I think that Tigers and Syed have a point, here.

As an atheist, I have to admit that sometimes I'm embarrassed and chagrined at how loud and demanding we are here in the US. I mean, look at all the atheist churches, down here in Georgia there's at least one on every street corner. And the message boards out in front of most of them- why, some of the stuff I've seen urging believers to deconvert, and threatening them with non-supernatural punishment before they die, it's simply disgraceful! Not to mention all the red laws forcing Christians to get drunk every Sunday, and requiring any business owner to keep their business open on whatever day they consider holy, and the fact that nobody who announces their theistic belief stands a chance of being elected to public office- terrible, just terrible!

Just the other morning I was awakened on my day off by these angry-looking and scruffy young men, smelling of booze, who came to my door insisting that I listen to them talk about how great it is to disbelieve, and trying to give me copies of works by Robert Ingersoll. And the huge media conglomerates which do nothing but broadcast the meaninglessness of religion, and the relativity of morals, and the preeminence of science, by radio, TV, and print, 24/7/365- I can well understand how some believers might find that overbearing and unfair.

So, given the shy and retiring nature of believers in this country, I have to agree that we atheists should just shut the hell up!

 

[Tigers!]

I think that Tigers and Syed have a point, here.

As an atheist, I have to admit that sometimes I'm embarrassed and chagrined at how loud and demanding we are here in the US. I mean, look at all the atheist churches, down here in Georgia there's at least one on every street corner. And the message boards out in front of most of them- why, some of the stuff I've seen urging believers to deconvert, and threatening them with non-supernatural punishment before they die, it's simply disgraceful! Not to mention all the red laws forcing Christians to get drunk every Sunday, and requiring any business owner to keep their business open on whatever day they consider holy, and the fact that nobody who announces their theistic belief stands a chance of being elected to public office- terrible, just terrible!

Just the other morning I was awakened on my day off by these angry-looking and scruffy young men, smelling of booze, who came to my door insisting that I listen to them talk about how great it is to disbelieve, and trying to give me copies of works by Robert Ingersoll. And the huge media conglomerates which do nothing but broadcast the meaninglessness of religion, and the relativity of morals, and the preeminence of science, by radio, TV, and print, 24/7/365- I can well understand how some believers might find that overbearing and unfair.

So, given the shy and retiring nature of believers in this country, I have to agree that we atheists should just shut the hell up!

That was sarcasm, wasn't it?

 

[Jobar]

Ya think?

 

[Lion IRC]

I wonder how many atheists are quietly pretending to be 'believers'.

 

[Angry Floof]

I wonder how many atheists are quietly pretending to be 'believers'.

My guess is millions in the US, closer to billions worldwide.

Very few people believe the religious nonsense they're fed. "Religious belief" is about identity, conformity, and lots of ways to program superstitious ideology into the human narrative through our wicked powerful social tendencies. It's not about experience itself, either the ordinary experience of being human or any experience we might call transcendent, or spiritual in some way. In fact, Christianity as we know it in the US is a powerful force against such experiences.

What boggles my mind is why those people who do experience those transformative things would insist on such a depraved story like Christianity to encapsulate the experience backward into a group religious identity. It's like finding a treasure and then choosing to store it under a pile of feces so no part of it can be viewed without religious shit smeared on it.

Such is the power the cognitive error built into a social dominance cult posing as a moral system.

 

[ideologyhunter]

My guess is also millions, but, I think many of the 'social believers' do not really know they are atheists -- do not acknowledge it to themselves, do not choose to engage with the issue. It is so easy to go along with group chants -- like the mindless ritual of the Pledge of Allegiance here in the States -- that one can do it without any kind of critique. The social act of attending church with family is combined, if you're lucky, with skilled oratory from the minister, priest, whatever. A minister who knows how to push the right buttons and draw on the group ethos provides the illusion that the group holds together with its special connection to a god, who can be thought about for 60 minutes a week and then comfortably shelved. Worship is the contemplation of the 'other', hidden, invisible, holy world, so it's something you can box off from the rest of your daily and weekly concerns. Most of all, identifying as atheist brings you a label that, at least in this country, is abhorrent to the general public. It takes a rather thick skin or a detached, ironic viewpoint to tell people you're atheist and not care much how they take it. I do that now, but I remember how strange and edgy it felt the first time I did.

 

[Sarpedon]

I tend to simply accept the label people give themselves, rather than speculate on inner motives.

 

[sdelsolray]

I wonder how many atheists are quietly pretending to be 'believers'.

People who instill religious indoctrination and/or engage in religious peer pressure work hand in hand.

 

[PyramidHead]

I wonder how many atheists are quietly pretending to be 'believers'.

Dan Dennett had an idea about this. He says, not a lot of people believe in God, but a lot of people believe in BELIEF in God. The notion that belief is necessary to live morally, to give life meaning, etc. is more pervasive than the actual belief in God. Which is what prompted DrZoidberg to make the thread that this one is responding to: why is it so important that God exists, when all most people really care about is being nice to each other and giving their lives meaning? You can have all that without believing in nonsense. Of course, for many people who do actually believe in nonsense, this question hit a little close to home. As for this counter-thread, it's not important to me at all whether God exists or not. I would live my life the same way in either case.

 

[Angry Floof]

I tend to simply accept the label people give themselves, rather than speculate on inner motives.

That's a wonderful policy for how you treat the people around you, and I share it. But when it comes to millions of Manchurian candidates electing their own fear and stupidity to the highest office in our country, I damn well will speculate on what's going on in their fucking heads.

The whole reason we speak out about religious stupidity is because of what ideological poison does to human minds and groups, and the consequences for whole societies. Yes, damn right I will call out millions on their pretenses and their lazy ignorance of themselves, absolutely.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I tend to simply accept the label people give themselves, rather than speculate on inner motives.

That's a wonderful policy for how you treat the people around you, and I share it. But when it comes to millions of Manchurian candidates electing their own fear and stupidity to the highest office in our country, I damn well will speculate on what's going on in their fucking heads.

The whole reason we speak out about religious stupidity is because of what ideological poison does to human minds and groups, and the consequences for whole societies. Yes, damn right I will call out millions on their pretenses and their lazy ignorance of themselves, absolutely.

Not all religion is ignorant, nonsensical stupidity, only most of it. A flying humanoid space zombie interested in my sex organs definitely qualifies somewhere between insane and delusional.

 

[bilby]

That's a wonderful policy for how you treat the people around you, and I share it. But when it comes to millions of Manchurian candidates electing their own fear and stupidity to the highest office in our country, I damn well will speculate on what's going on in their fucking heads.

The whole reason we speak out about religious stupidity is because of what ideological poison does to human minds and groups, and the consequences for whole societies. Yes, damn right I will call out millions on their pretenses and their lazy ignorance of themselves, absolutely.

Not all religion is ignorant, nonsensical stupidity, only most of it. A flying humanoid space zombie interested in my sex organs definitely qualifies somewhere between insane and delusional.

Actually, it is.

It incorporates some non-religious elements that are non-stupid; but those could equally well (and often better and more quickly) have been achieved by secular means.

Counselling by a trained psychotherapist is superior to confession, or to discussing ones problems with a priest or chaplain.

A sense of community derived from volunteering to help others is better achieved, and has better results for the wider society, if it comes from joining the Rural Fire Service, the SES, or even just taking a first aid course, than from joining a church.

Of course, churches try to hide that fact by doing all these secular things and then claiming them as part of their religion; but that's not really true - those things that are done by both Christian Churches and Buddhist Temples are not things you can reasonably claim to be a part of Christianity.

Being nice to people isn't the Christian thing to do; it's the Human thing to do.

Stealing the credit for things that they have no real claim to - now that's very Christian indeed.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Not all religion is ignorant, nonsensical stupidity, only most of it. A flying humanoid space zombie interested in my sex organs definitely qualifies somewhere between insane and delusional.

Actually, it is.

It incorporates some non-religious elements that are non-stupid; but those could equally well (and often better and more quickly) have been achieved by secular means.

Counselling by a trained psychotherapist is superior to confession, or to discussing ones problems with a priest or chaplain.

A sense of community derived from volunteering to help others is better achieved, and has better results for the wider society, if it comes from joining the Rural Fire Service, the SES, or even just taking a first aid course, than from joining a church.

Of course, churches try to hide that fact by doing all these secular things and then claiming them as part of their religion; but that's not really true - those things that are done by both Christian Churches and Buddhist Temples are not things you can reasonably claim to be a part of Christianity.

Being nice to people isn't the Christian thing to do; it's the Human thing to do.

Stealing the credit for things that they have no real claim to - now that's very Christian indeed.

Well, I agree but was trying to be polite.

You can help the little old lady cross the street for Jesus or because it's the decent thing to do. Only when someone has you start pledging allegiance to the flying space zombie in order to be treated "decently" is there a problem.

 

[Rayschism]

What's important to me is freedom of thought, expression and choice.

As an atheist I am not entirely closed off to the idea of a deity.

I am, however, really turned off by the bullies and liars who have the specialness mentality. That they are so special that you can't say no to them, you can't disagree with them in any way, shape or form, and you must obey them in all things.

Note: in my ripe old age I've learned some wisdom that religious people don't have a monopoly on this kind of behavior.

Most atheists are just people who want their own lives, and there really should be nothing wrong with that.

But, according to the Bible, unbelievers are very bad people too. Which is something I just can't wrap my head around.

For example, why would say a paramedic who saves lives and does charity work to help feed people be a very malevolent person eligible to burn in the pit of hell for all eternity? They are no different that say a man who loves to commit atrocities against ten year old children in the eyes of the Bible.

I just can't wrap my head around that concept

Nope, just can't do eet.