• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Why no war against Stalin?

Sometimes orders are given without adequate thought. During the American civil war, the attack at Cold Harbor, delayed by 24 hours so was rendered pointless but carried out anyway. 6k casualties in less than 30 minutes and nothing accomplished. And US Grant is still considered a great general.

I don't know the battle of Coronel, but it's difficult to find military leaders who haven't blundered. Africanus Scipio, maybe.
 
North Africa was supplied. It was apparently secure enough that Marshall didn't think the invasion of Italy necessary. Safe communications with the Empire wasn't an American concern.

Besides, drawing Axis naval and air forces out would've resulted in their destruction. Losses may have been more materiel intensive as opposed to personnel, but I don't see a disadvantage there. The Allies were in a far better position to win a battle of attrition. Instead, they played to the Germans strong suit, butting heads against strong defensive positions.
 
I have never blamed him for anything 'just because he was in charge.' That is simply untrue.

That's what I got from this:

The responsibility lies with the one giving the orders.
(click on the double arrow to get the full context)
But my point was never that I was complaining about the position you had taKen, but merely that, if we are to pick and choose what to praise him for, then there are certain arguements we have to avoid to be consistent.

How dare you accuse me of inconsistency and bias?

I don't. I accused you of presenting arguements that weren't actually the reasons you held those positions.

I have evidence and facts for every one of the things I blame him for,

Good.

Yet you would have me praise him for things that he clearly was not responsible for,

No, I really wouldn't. That's rather the point I was making.

On your side you only have the fantasy movie idea

No, I really don't.

The fact that you refuse to assign responsibilty to the man who gave the orders shows not just an intellectual, but a moral failing on your part.

Cite or retract please. I need an instance of me refusing to assign responsbility to Churchill. Or a retraction.

I feel I should apologise. I had assumed that you had understood what I was arguing for, but it doesn't seem like we ever got there.
 
I don't. I accused you of presenting arguements that weren't actually the reasons you held those positions.
So you would cast aspersions on my motives, despite my painstaking presentation of all my reasons, you would insinuate that I don't really believe them, and have some bizarre, undisclosed motive. For the last time, I make a distinction between 'being in charge' that is to say, to simply hold a position of authority, and 'giving orders' which means issuing directives that must legally be obeyed by those below them, for some purpose. Churchill was 'in charge' during the Singapore disaster, but it was not his 'orders' that produced it. In all of the failures I've cited he issued orders or exercised influence to create the conditions which directly led to the failures.

Cite or retract please. I need an instance of me refusing to assign responsbility to Churchill. Or a retraction.

I assumed you were defending him, though now it seems you were simply trolling. I acknowledge that I was mistaken in thinking you were defending him. I'm sorry that I thought you actually cared about the subject at hand, rather than simply trying to annoy people by nit picking their arguments and casting aspersions on their character. If I have ever been unclear, you would have had better results if you had asked for clarification instead of making insinuating remarks.

For the rest, you don't get an apology. You accuse me of lying and "presenting arguments that aren't actually the reason I held the position," and then you expect me to apologize to you. I will not.
 
Horatio said:
Sometimes orders are given without adequate thought. During the American civil war, the attack at Cold Harbor, delayed by 24 hours so was rendered pointless but carried out anyway. 6k casualties in less than 30 minutes and nothing accomplished. And US Grant is still considered a great general.

I don't know the battle of Coronel, but it's difficult to find military leaders who haven't blundered. Africanus Scipio, maybe.

That is absolutely correct. If Coronel, the first of Churchill's many blunders, had produced any sort of improvement or even acknowledgement of error on his part, I would excuse it as a youthful error on the part of the extremely youthful First Sea Lord.

Unfortunately, his errors continued to compound throughout his career.

For the record, I don't feel Grant was a great general. I believe he was a competent general, who understood and had the will to fight a war of attrition against Lee, rather than war of manuever, which Lee consistently got the better of.

I feel both Sherman and Thomas were the Union's better generals in terms of skill. Whether they had the will of Grant was never fully tested.
 
So you would cast aspersions on my motives,

No, I'm really not. I was making a point about what arguements make sense, that you mistook for an arguement against your own opinion, and pursued at great length.

Cite or retract please. I need an instance of me refusing to assign responsbility to Churchill. Or a retraction.

I assumed you were defending him, .. I acknowledge that I was mistaken in thinking you were defending him.

Fair enough.

I'm sorry that I thought you actually cared about the subject at hand, rather than simply trying to annoy people by nit picking their arguments and casting aspersions on their character. If I have ever been unclear, you would have had better results if you had asked for clarification instead of making insinuating remarks.

Ok, so let's have some clarification. I was making a point about what arguements we can use to praise/blame Churchill. You replied with points about Churchill that indicated he was at fault. I repeated my earlier point, you took this to mean I was contradicting you, and got increasingly upset. As the cycle continued you got increasingly insulting and personal in response to my comments which you took to be personally insulting. Presumably because you thought I was implying some kind of reference to you, rather than simply sticking with my previous line. We've now reached the stage where you appear convinced that I'm trying to put you down in some way, despite this never being my intention, and are openly throwing insults and accusations at me which, it appears, we can agree are untrue.

So the question becomes, how does this stop? We've reached the stage where I can annoy you just by being polite. Can we take a moment here, realise that this is simply a misunderstanding? Or do you have some larger greivance here?

For the rest, you don't get an apology. You accuse me of lying

Cite or retract please.

and then you expect me to apologize to you.

Cite or retract please.
 
I have never blamed him for anything 'just because he was in charge.' That is simply untrue. I assign responsibility to him for the orders that he issued. I blame him for ill advised operations that he, specifically promoted or was involved in the specific dispositions for. I do expect the man in charge of the navy to have a basic understanding of how it works. If he doesn't he's incompetent.

For example, he was Prime Minister when Singapore fell to the Japanese. A disgraceful defeat for the british empire, which saw an outnumbered Japanese force attacking and capturing a fortified place, a major strategic base. However, I don't blame churchill for this, because he made certain the place was reinforced, and he was told that it was 'impregnable.' The fault does not lie on him.

I don't even blame him for Operation Market Garden, which he DID have a hand in promoting. However, it was an operation that appeared to have a reasonable chance of success, and what failures there were happened well below his level. It was a risky operation to put forwards, but risk is acceptable in war, and occasional defeats aren't to be matters of blame. Plenty of people would disagree, considering the whole operation to have been a reckless 'lets get the war done by christmas' sort of pipe dream. But I won't ascribe blame for a merely very risky operation as I would one that has manifest incompetence, ignorance and bungling.

I DO blame him for the loss of the Prince of Wales, which he sent with no air protection, to reinforce Singapore. (against the advice of his admirals) After Pearl Harbor, no one had any excuse to think the Japanese couldn't sink a battleship with a bomber.

I DO blame the battle of Coronel on him, because he was responsible for selecting the ships, and he gave the orders, overruling the officer on scene. He failed to understand that the ships were incapable of fulfilling the orders, and instead blamed the men.


I DO blame him for Galipoli, because he was the one most aggressively promoted it, overlooking the problems involved, many of which were naval in nature, and he was in charge of the navy.

How dare you accuse me of inconsistency and bias? I have evidence and facts for every one of the things I blame him for, and I don't blame him for a myriad of defeats that occurred during his PMship, only those where his bungling, arrogance, and ignorance are obviously manifest. Yet you would have me praise him for things that he clearly was not responsible for, like the Battle of Britain, as if his Heroic Aura inspired the pilots of the RAF and caused Radar installations and Spitfires to spontaneously assemble themselves. It is no great leadership to be handed a tool and to say 'this is a good tool, let us use it.' That is ordinary leadership. On your side you only have the fantasy movie idea that officers have total ability to ignore bad orders, and those giving the bad orders have no responsibility for them. It is absolutely a fact that Winston Churchill ordered Cradock to fight a battle he couldn't possibly win. Don't you dare deny that. The fact that you refuse to assign responsibilty to the man who gave the orders shows not just an intellectual, but a moral failing on your part.

Whilst Churchill is the subject of a certain amount of hagiography, the above post is inconsistent and, to a large extent, ignorant.

Coronel; Churchill was on the far side of the world, the Admiralty’s orders to Cradock were unclear. Cradock signalled the FLA (Churchill) seeking clarification but the FLA didn’t understand what was being asked and referred the matter back to the Admiralty. For the avoidance of doubt the FLA isn’t in charge of tactical operations. So Churchill can hardly be blamed there. If you were to compare roles then the FLA was equivalent to the US Secretary of the Navy and we know that Knox didn’t carry the blame for Pearl Harbor. So why should Churchill be solely to blame for Coronel? At worst what Churchill is guilty of is not understanding the importance of why a commander at sea would go over the heads of the Admiralty to the FLA. Cradock was obviously frustrated at the lack of clarity from his immediate superiors and wanted someone with the authority to knock heads together to do so and gain clarity. Churchill failed to recognise this by referring the matter downwards again, thereby foiling Cradock's plan. To be fair, however, the FLA not being in tactical command, did have something on his plate at the time that was his responsibility i.e. the dispute between Battenburg and Fisher.

Gallipoli; again, whilst Churchill promoted the issue, the failure was mainly a tactical one, especially on the part of the army who moved far too slowly thereby enabling the Turks to occupy, fortify, and reinforce the high ground. It is thoroughly inconsistent to blame Churchill for Gallipoli and exonerate him for Market-Garden and Singapore. Blame could not be assigned to him in any of those cases. However, he eventually resigned over Gallipoli and thereafter served as an officer on the Western Front.

The loss of Prince of Wales and Repulse cannot be compared to Pearl Harbor since the latter was an attack on ships stationary in harbour. In fact the loss of these RN ships was the first time major surface combatant vessels were sunk at sea, and under way, by aircraft. Neither Churchill nor the Admiralty (nor even the USN for that matter) “knew” this was possible and, once again, you assume that Churchill was in tactical command, in fact the decision to deploy the ships was taken by Admiral Phillips, who did actually have tactical command of Force Z. Furthermore, sending capital ships to reinforce Singapore had ALWAYS been part of the Admiralty's planning It wasn't an idea plucked out of thin air by Churchill and he certainly did not override his Admirals to send those ships to the Far East. To assert so is incorrect.

The Battle of Britain was certainly won by weapons and tactics devised before Churchill became PM. However the crucial point you miss is that had it not been for Churchill the BoB would not have been fought at all. The possible alternative PMs to Churchill after Chamberlain stood down would have surrendered after the fall of France. Only Churchill was prepared to continue the war despite the UK being isolated.

Churchill was prone to grandiose and strategically naïve thinking, most of which was quietly quashed by the CIGS during his premiership but he was never directly involved in tactical decision making except at battalion level when he was in the Royal Scots Fusiliers. He may have THOUGHT he was and, in his arrogance, he certainly asserted that he was in his wartime memoirs but insisting he actually was isn’t correct.

Churchill’s gift was his stubborn refusal to give in and his ability to inspire others into believing that Britain could not only survive but could prevail in a continued war with Germany.

The world would be a very different place today had Britain, under Churchill’s leadership, not stood alone against Germany. Some of the carping in this thread by Americans is understandable but the Europeans who have also done so have a very, very misguided view of history and forget that their individual countries would simple have been subsumed into the Greater Reich and then airbrushed from history had it not been for Churchill and Britain’s resilience.
 
For the record, I don't feel Grant was a great general. I believe he was a competent general, who understood and had the will to fight a war of attrition against Lee, rather than war of manuever, which Lee consistently got the better of.

I feel both Sherman and Thomas were the Union's better generals in terms of skill. Whether they had the will of Grant was never fully tested.

In fairness to Grant, it should be pointed out that attrition was not his strategy. That it turned out that way was due to the incompetence of Hunter and Butler. Grant's design was for the Army of Potomac to keep Lee busy , and therefore unable to reinforce, while the armies on the lower James and Shenendoah Valley threatened from the rear.
 
Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
For the rest, you don't get an apology. You accuse me of lying
Cite or retract please.
Togo said:
I don't. I accused you of presenting arguements that weren't actually the reasons you held those positions.

You accuse me of misrepresenting myself: ie lying. And your 'cite or retract' bullshit is the same as demanding an apology. Don't you dare act all high and mighty. Last post of yours I waste my time responding to.
 
Horatio said:
Sometimes orders are given without adequate thought. During the American civil war, the attack at Cold Harbor, delayed by 24 hours so was rendered pointless but carried out anyway. 6k casualties in less than 30 minutes and nothing accomplished. And US Grant is still considered a great general.

I don't know the battle of Coronel, but it's difficult to find military leaders who haven't blundered. Africanus Scipio, maybe.

That is absolutely correct. If Coronel, the first of Churchill's many blunders, had produced any sort of improvement or even acknowledgement of error on his part, I would excuse it as a youthful error on the part of the extremely youthful First Sea Lord.

Unfortunately, his errors continued to compound throughout his career.

For the record, I don't feel Grant was a great general. I believe he was a competent general, who understood and had the will to fight a war of attrition against Lee, rather than war of manuever, which Lee consistently got the better of.

I feel both Sherman and Thomas were the Union's better generals in terms of skill. Whether they had the will of Grant was never fully tested.

The real test of generalship is how forces are commanded when outnumbered. A competent general may be a great general, but never have the opportunity to display his genius. I don't think any general would wish to be on the short side, just for his chance as greatness.
The difference between Grant and the rest of his generation of officers is he was the first to be willing to absorb the casualties needed to win battles and force the Confederate Army to withdraw. Some call this a war of attrition and it's difficult to tell the difference, if there is one, but attrition was not Grant's strategy. The Confederate Army was in constant retreat, which gave them inverse initiative. Grant would have liked a decisive battle, but by the time he was given command of the Army of the West, the south's only hope was a political solution. This meant their armies had to remain intact. The outnumbered Confederates would have to find a position they could defend and force the Union to march into their gunfire. Such a position would pin them down and be outflanked and surrounded by the Union Army. It was an untenable tactic and could not be allowed. The Confederate war of maneuver was a tactic of desperation.
 
Hickdive said:
Coronel; Churchill was on the far side of the world, the Admiralty’s orders to Cradock were unclear. Cradock signalled the FLA (Churchill) seeking clarification but the FLA didn’t understand what was being asked and referred the matter back to the Admiralty. For the avoidance of doubt the FLA isn’t in charge of tactical operations. So Churchill can hardly be blamed there. If you were to compare roles then the FLA was equivalent to the US Secretary of the Navy and we know that Knox didn’t carry the blame for Pearl Harbor. So why should Churchill be solely to blame for Coronel? At worst what Churchill is guilty of is not understanding the importance of why a commander at sea would go over the heads of the Admiralty to the FLA. Cradock was obviously frustrated at the lack of clarity from his immediate superiors and wanted someone with the authority to knock heads together to do so and gain clarity. Churchill failed to recognise this by referring the matter downwards again, thereby foiling Cradock's plan. To be fair, however, the FLA not being in tactical command, did have something on his plate at the time that was his responsibility i.e. the dispute between Battenburg and Fisher.

Misrepresents my argument. I don't know how many times I must repeat that I am not blaming Churchill just because he was in a certain office, but that he himself issued certain orders. While it is true that the FLA is not in tactical control, it is in strategic control. Therefore, the composition of the ships under Cradock's command was Churchill's not Cradock's responsibility. Likewise, the order to intercept and destroy the German fleet was issued by Churchill. Since the fleet in question was not sufficient for the task, as cradock protested, and was overruled, the responsibility must rest on higher shoulders. I did not make allowances for Churchill's being preoccupied with closer matters, which mitigates, not eliminates, the responsibilities, perhaps.

Gallipoli; again, whilst Churchill promoted the issue, the failure was mainly a tactical one, especially on the part of the army who moved far too slowly thereby enabling the Turks to occupy, fortify, and reinforce the high ground. It is thoroughly inconsistent to blame Churchill for Gallipoli and exonerate him for Market-Garden and Singapore. Blame could not be assigned to him in any of those cases. However, he eventually resigned over Gallipoli and thereafter served as an officer on the Western Front.

I disagree: You can't blame the failure of Gallipoli on the army, because as churchill originally planned it, the army was not to be involved. He believed that the navy alone would be sufficient for the task, but failed to understand that the combination of minefields and mobile artillery within the straits area would render even the most powerful of battleships helpless. Again, failure to understand the basics of his own office's responsibilities, just as at Coronel. It was only after the navy's failure that the army was thrown in, haphazardly and without proper equipment, to rescue the operation. The delay that you try to blame on the army was due to the failure of Churchill's plan.

Please do not call me 'ignorant' when you don't seem to have all the facts straight, yourself.

The difference between Market Garden and Gallipoli, was that while it was bigger in ambition than any airborne operation in history, there was nothing demanded of any particular unit that was unrealistic. I.E. Airborne units were expected to capture and hold bridges, and armored units were expected to drive through and relieve them. That is different than Coronel, where an obsolete battleship was expected to catch faster vessels, and lightly armed ships were expected to engage and defeat heavier vessels. Or at Gallipoli, where battleships were expected to defeat artillery while avoiding mines, and minesweepers were expected to clear mines while withstanding artillery.

It was only the combination of multiple hitches that led to the overall failure of market garden. As I said, plenty of people blame Churchill for his involvement. I feel I can't honestly do so, even though I think it was overoptimistic to begin with. Nevertheless, many a bold victory in history would have been denounced as foolishness had they not been victories.

The loss of Prince of Wales and Repulse cannot be compared to Pearl Harbor since the latter was an attack on ships stationary in harbour. In fact the loss of these RN ships was the first time major surface combatant vessels were sunk at sea, and under way, by aircraft. Neither Churchill nor the Admiralty (nor even the USN for that matter) “knew” this was possible and, once again, you assume that Churchill was in tactical command, in fact the decision to deploy the ships was taken by Admiral Phillips, who did actually have tactical command of Force Z. Furthermore, sending capital ships to reinforce Singapore had ALWAYS been part of the Admiralty's planning It wasn't an idea plucked out of thin air by Churchill and he certainly did not override his Admirals to send those ships to the Far East. To assert so is incorrect.
Perhaps this is true, will check.

The Battle of Britain was certainly won by weapons and tactics devised before Churchill became PM. However the crucial point you miss is that had it not been for Churchill the BoB would not have been fought at all. The possible alternative PMs to Churchill after Chamberlain stood down would have surrendered after the fall of France. Only Churchill was prepared to continue the war despite the UK being isolated.

This seems to be a bald assertion. Which alternatives do you think would have surrendered, and why do you think they would have been elevated?
 
This seems to be a bald assertion. Which alternatives do you think would have surrendered, and why do you think they would have been elevated?

Okay, if this is the level of your ignorance (and I do use the term in its non-pejorative sense) then there's really no point in carrying on the discussion on this or any of the other points

To help you though I'll give you a clue; Lord Halifax.
 
Umm...

Lord Halifax said:
I had no doubt at all in my own mind that for me to succeed him would create a quite impossible situation. Apart altogether from Churchill's qualities as compared with my own at this particular juncture, what would in fact be my position? Churchill would be running Defence, and in this connexion one could not but remember the relationship between Asquith and Lloyd George had broken down in the first war... I should speedily become a more or less honorary Prime Minister, living in a kind of twilight just outside the things that really mattered.

I am aware that Halifax was pro appeasement. I didn't include him with candidates because the only reason he didn't become PM is because he didn't want to be. I disagree with the idea that someone was pro-appeasement they would necessary surrender. This is extremely shallow. No prominent politician was talking surrender, publicly or privately.

This is the second time you've replied to me in an offensive and high handed way when in fact it is your own knowledge is imperfect. I must say I have little use for your opinions or your company either.
 
Both the Nazis and the Soviets invaded Poland.

Why only war against the Nazis, if the Soviets were clearly also aggressors?

Because during WW2, Stalin threatened to leave the Alliance if the other allies didn't agree to let him invade Poland. Stalin essentially held the whole war hostage, and Poland was the agreed upon price.
 
Both the Nazis and the Soviets invaded Poland.

Why only war against the Nazis, if the Soviets were clearly also aggressors?

Because during WW2, Stalin threatened to leave the Alliance if the other allies didn't agree to let him invade Poland. Stalin essentially held the whole war hostage, and Poland was the agreed upon price.
Was Russia in an alliance with anyone other than Germany at that time? My understanding is that Russia and Germany had a non-aggression pact and they divided Poland between themselves in 1939. Russia didn't join the Allies until 1941 after Germany broke their non-aggression pact and invaded Russia.
 
Regarding the question in the OP, France's "guarantee" to Poland only pertained to a German invasion, while Britain was obliged to declare war on the Soviets they didn't. Halifax later said: "As regards Soviet aggression we were free to take our own decision and to decide whether to declare war on the USSR or not." The whole thing was a betrayal really as neither Britain nor France had the means, nor any intention really to go to Poland's aid. Hence the term "Phony War".
 
Back
Top Bottom