Why not enmity between man and woman?

[Lion IRC]

...But until they ate the fruit, they had no concept of right or wrong.

Hang on...they had Gods command what NOT to do.
Surely that is enough to introduce the to the concept of do/don't why/why not.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

...But until they ate the fruit, they had no concept of right or wrong.

Hang on...they had Gods command what NOT to do.
Surely that is enough to introduce the to the concept of do/don't why/why not.

Are we ignoring that god lies about the fruit?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

...But until they ate the fruit, they had no concept of right or wrong.

Hang on...they had Gods command what NOT to do.
Surely that is enough to introduce the to the concept of do/don't why/why not.

How so? It seems to me that this concept would be dependent upon their understanding that it would be right to follow God's command and wrong to disobey him. If they don't have that level of understanding, what is it which allows them to figure out that concept?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hang on...they had Gods command what NOT to do.
Surely that is enough to introduce the to the concept of do/don't why/why not.

How so? It seems to me that this concept would be dependent upon their understanding that it would be right to follow God's command and wrong to disobey him. If they don't have that level of understanding, what is it which allows them to figure out that concept?

Not to make a coherent argument in place of the weak apologetics we are getting here, but it should be noted that there is likely a significance when the woman exaggerates the prohibition to the serpent, that they musn't eat or even touch the tree.

This implies that they understand there is something they are not to do. However! It must be noted that the prohibition isn't via God. God never says 'you are forbidden to eat that fruit.'. God says 'you forbidden to eat of that fruit, lest you will surely die.'

So the rule is one of safety, not of a moral nature.

Enter the serpent, who is cunning, so cunning he sees through God's BS about the fruit being deadly, and knowing the truth about the gift the fruit contains.

The woman is tempted, and why not! It'd rise her stature in the eyes of God. She eats of it and knows of all things. Gives it to man and now man and woman know as God does.

But God is an asshole. He doesn't want partners, he wants servants, that is how he created man to tend to the Garden. So he boots them from the Garden.

 

[sdelsolray]

God told them what would happen if they ate the fruit - death.
Adam was not unfamiliar with the term, even if he (like us) didn't understand it fully.

Get your mythology straight.

The god only told Adam. It never spoke with Eve.

Adam's familiarity of the term "death" is not discussed, referenced or implied in the myth. You just made that part up.

 

[DBT]

God told them what would happen if they ate the fruit - death.
Adam was not unfamiliar with the term, even if he (like us) didn't understand it fully.

How do you know that Adam was familiar with the term 'death' given that there was no examples of death in the garden of Eden (or so it is claimed)?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

God told them what would happen if they ate the fruit - death.
Adam was not unfamiliar with the term, even if he (like us) didn't understand it fully.

How do you know that Adam was familiar with the term 'death' given that there was no examples of death in the garden of Eden (or so it is claimed)?

I don't think this is a reasonable line of argument. Man and woman don't eat of the fruit until after they are told they will not die from eating it.

 

[Keith&Co.]

How do you know that Adam was familiar with the term 'death' given that there was no examples of death in the garden of Eden (or so it is claimed)?

I don't think this is a reasonable line of argument. Man and woman don't eat of the fruit until after they are told they will not die from eating it.

Either way, die or not die, if they didn't know what death was, then they wouldn't have put great weight on the consequences. If that wasn't even a consequence, they had no tools to evaluate the two people telling them crazy bullshit stories about weird things.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't think this is a reasonable line of argument. Man and woman don't eat of the fruit until after they are told they will not die from eating it.

Either way, die or not die, if they didn't know what death was, then they wouldn't have put great weight on the consequences. If that wasn't even a consequence, they had no tools to evaluate the two people telling them crazy bullshit stories about weird things.

But they don't eat of the fruit. In fact, the woman exaggerates the danger by saying they couldn't even touch it, lest they die. So I think it isn't very likely they don't understand the concept of dying. They are avoiding it.

Then when the serpent comes in and says, 'Bah! You won't die.' then and only then, does the fruit start becoming enticing.

What needs to be concentrated on is the fruit, the fact it doesn't do what God said it would (the serpent didn't lie), and the reason God kicks man and woman from the Garden.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Hang on...they had Gods command what NOT to do.
Surely that is enough to introduce the to the concept of do/don't why/why not.

How so? It seems to me that this concept would be dependent upon their understanding that it would be right to follow God's command and wrong to disobey him. If they don't have that level of understanding, what is it which allows them to figure out that concept?

This has been a problem for me for years and years. You cannot be held responsible for disobeying when you don't understand why disobeying God is evil, because God did not give you the ability to understand that it is evil. And why did God not want Adam and Eve to have knowledge of good and evil? Or immortal life by eating of the tree of life? And who were these trees meant for? Why were they there in the garden? It all makes no sense, but silly myths usually in the end, don't.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How so? It seems to me that this concept would be dependent upon their understanding that it would be right to follow God's command and wrong to disobey him. If they don't have that level of understanding, what is it which allows them to figure out that concept?

This has been a problem for me for years and years. You cannot be held responsible for disobeying when you don't understand why disobeying God is evil, because God did not give you the ability to understand that it is evil. And why did God not want Adam and Eve to have knowledge of good and evil? Or immortal life by eating of the tree of life? And who were these trees meant for? Why were they there in the garden? It all makes no sense, but silly myths usually in the end, don't.

It isn't silly. The story has to end a certain way. We can't still be in paradise.

What is silly is people taking the story literally.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

While to you and me, taking this story seriously seem ludicrous, down here in Texas where I live, many do exactly that. So we have religionists trying to get creationism into our schools and making sure evolution is not taught in Texas school science curriculums. So it can very well be not only a common practice, but has real world consequences, and not good ones.

 

[bilby]

How is the risk of death a problem anyway? Would they not go to heaven if they died?

In the garden prior to the fall, the warning "Do not eat that, or you will surely die" is indistinguishable from "Do not eat that, or you will surely be rewarded with paradise". Hardly a warning one needs to take very seriously.

The story of Adam and Eve clearly indicates that God is a lying liar who lies; that He sets A&E up for a fall the fall; and that the only character in the whole deal who is honest and trustworthy is the snake. It's a shit story, and its clear moral is the exact opposite of the moral it is claimed by the church to convey.

What a crock.

 

[DBT]

I don't think this is a reasonable line of argument. Man and woman don't eat of the fruit until after they are told they will not die from eating it.

Either way, die or not die, if they didn't know what death was, then they wouldn't have put great weight on the consequences. If that wasn't even a consequence, they had no tools to evaluate the two people telling them crazy bullshit stories about weird things.

That's right. That was my point.

 

[DBT]

Either way, die or not die, if they didn't know what death was, then they wouldn't have put great weight on the consequences. If that wasn't even a consequence, they had no tools to evaluate the two people telling them crazy bullshit stories about weird things.

But they don't eat of the fruit. In fact, the woman exaggerates the danger by saying they couldn't even touch it, lest they die. So I think it isn't very likely they don't understand the concept of dying. They are avoiding it.

Then when the serpent comes in and says, 'Bah! You won't die.' then and only then, does the fruit start becoming enticing.

What needs to be concentrated on is the fruit, the fact it doesn't do what God said it would (the serpent didn't lie), and the reason God kicks man and woman from the Garden.

Fair points....but A and E having no examples of death, or experience with death (animals dying, leaves them with just the word that perhaps sounds ominous coming from the Lord God on High, but not really understanding the significance.

 

[bilby]

But they don't eat of the fruit. In fact, the woman exaggerates the danger by saying they couldn't even touch it, lest they die. So I think it isn't very likely they don't understand the concept of dying. They are avoiding it.

Then when the serpent comes in and says, 'Bah! You won't die.' then and only then, does the fruit start becoming enticing.

What needs to be concentrated on is the fruit, the fact it doesn't do what God said it would (the serpent didn't lie), and the reason God kicks man and woman from the Garden.

Fair points....but A and E having no examples of death, or experience with death (animals dying, leaves them with just the word that perhaps sounds ominous coming from the Lord God on High, but not really understanding the significance.

YOU ATE THE STUFF I SAID WAS FORBIDDEN!! WHAT ARE YOU, DEAF??

...plus 6,000 years of word of mouth...

 

[Underseer]

Fair points....but A and E having no examples of death, or experience with death (animals dying, leaves them with just the word that perhaps sounds ominous coming from the Lord God on High, but not really understanding the significance.

YOU ATE THE STUFF I SAID WAS FORBIDDEN!! WHAT ARE YOU, DEAF??

...plus 6,000 years of word of mouth...

But why is it wrong to do something that is forbidden?

Oh, right. They couldn't know that without eating the fruit first.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

YOU ATE THE STUFF I SAID WAS FORBIDDEN!! WHAT ARE YOU, DEAF??

...plus 6,000 years of word of mouth...

But why is it wrong to do something that is forbidden?

Oh, right. They couldn't know that without eating the fruit first.

Seeing the fruit contained all knowledge, not knowledge of morality, that isn't quite a true statement. And who said eating the fruit was forbidden? God tells them that it'll kill them, that is why they can't eat the fruit.

I'm surprised Eddie Izzard hasn't snuck upon this yet.

G: You may eat of any tree here, except the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, lest if you eat of it, you will surely die.
M: That seems odd.
G: What?
M: That Tree of Death thing.
G: No, it is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, not the Tree of Death.
M: But if I eat it, I'd die... so that means Tree of Death. You really should reconsider relabeling the tree for safety consideration.
G: The name of the tree is not important...
M: Maybe I should cut it down. I mean why even have the threat hanging over the Garden in the first place?
G: You will not cut down the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil!
M: Hmm.... can I lick the fruit?
G: What?
M: The fruit... from the Tree of Death. Hey, what if I chew, but don't swallow? Will that kill me?
G: You can not chew it, you can not lick it!
M: What about the tree itself? Can I touch it?
G: Yes, you can touch the tree.
M *goes over and pokes the tree*: Look at me! I'm poking the Tree of Death! *gleefully laughing*
M: So... are there any other things you put here that can kill me?
G: No.
M: So just the Tree of Death.
G: *annoyed* The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
M: So what is that all about anyway? What is Good and Evil?
G: It is a metaphor for all knowledge.
M: A metaphor?
G: Yes.
M: There are only two of us, why the heck are you using a metaphor? One I didn't even get. Of course, if I ate the fruit I would have gotten the metaphor, but then I'd die because it is a Tree of Death.
G: Just...
M: And why in the heck is a Tree that grants all knowledge to the person who eats from it something that also kills you? That doesn't sound intelligently designed.
G: It doesn't...
M: Hey, what if I eat a piece of fruit from the Tree of Death and the Tree of Life at the same time?
G: Just don't eat the damn fruit okay!
M: Or lick it! *wink*
G: Enough! *hits reset button*

G *talking to man and woman*: And you may eat of any tree in the garden, but not from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, lest if you eat or even touch it, you will surely die.
M/W: Woah!

 

[iolo]

Originally, as far as we know, the time between conception and birth being what it is, women were regarded as magical beings who created babies, inheritance was matrilineal and the Earth Goddess was theoretical big chief. People in steppes and deserts watched creatures mating, got the message and worshipped the Sky Father. I think all the Edenic codswallop is just reaction to bossing. liked the Zionists bullying Palestinians. While our heads are full of crap it is difficult to behave to one another like people.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The Genesis tall tales are just somebody's Just-So stories. But they are obviously redacted from an earlier set of tall tales we no longer have access to. So we don't have the full tale to understand what was the meaning of all this, the story teller's viewpoint.

Why were these magic trees in the garden? Who were they for? After the flood, whee does God plant his new magic tree gardens? Why did this God critter want us naked, ignorant and mortal? If the trees were so important, why couldn't God erect a Sears and Roebuck electric fence around them?