Why the GOP is obsessed with "woke" — but can't define it

[DrZoidberg]

I am so sick of the bullshit term "virtue signaling".

The term does have some merit. For example, when conservatives use the term "virtue signaling," they are most often virtue signaling.

I doubt Dr. Z wears US flag lapels.. but boy, talk about virtue signaling among the right-wing and alt-right. I remember back when carrying a tiny copy of the US Constitution was also quite popular among the right-wing to prove how patriotic they were.

And of course, complaining about "woke" means you are patriotic in some virtue signaling of its own.

I wear it next to my swastika

From Wikipedia:

Virtue signalling is the expression of a moral viewpoint with the intent of communicating good character.[1][2][3]

...

According to the Cambridge Dictionary, virtue signalling is "an attempt to show other people that you are a good person, for example by expressing opinions that will be acceptable to them, especially on social media... indicating that one has virtue merely by expressing disgust or favour for certain political ideas or cultural happenings".[4]

Let's start with the last part first--

• "...expressing disgust ... for certain political ideas or cultural happenings." Negative commentary regarding wokes and virtue signaling fits this part of the description, i.e. "expressing disgust" for "political ideas" or "cultural happenings."
• "...especially on social media..." -- welp, facebook, twitter, even IIDB are social media, but social media is not a necessary part. Pundits like Cucker Tarlson also engage in virtue signaling.
• "...expressing opinions..." -- yup, when conservatives are engaging in negative commentary regarding wokes or virtue signaling, they are expressing opinions.
• "...attempting to show other people that you are a good person..." -- ah, well, this one is always the claim by an observer who is critiquing the person in question or what they said or wrote and the motivation of the person might or might not be debatable. We could claim that Cucker Tarlson or Dr Z or even I by writing posts am engaging in communication for sake of looking moral. In any case, anyone who is saying "you're just doing it to gain the moral high ground..." is attempting, even unconsciously to gain the moral high ground.

So, since, attacking virtue signaling is itself virtue signaling, these types of critiques are virtually meaningless. They are an exercise in triablistic echo chamber saber rattling and fist bumping. Sound. Fury. And Pedestals.

Likewise, woke. What does it mean, but to be awake to the social issues of the day and promote the awareness through communication. To conservatives, talking about the wokes is showing conservative wokeness, i.e. awareness of conservative ideology and critiques of liberals and special anecdotes about extremists to going on and on about. And memes. Don't forget memes.

It's like, think back to Bill O'Reilly talking about Culture Wars. Would you say Bill O'Reilly was NOT trying to take the moral high ground. The very nature of conservatives is to try to make value judgments they are brainwashed into by various institutions and then try to push them on everyone else. Remember, they hate cultural relativism and moral relativism. They have moral absolutes. And when they publish their ideology or engage in sophisticated critiques of "The Left" they are showing they are Woke to it.

One of the main differences these days is much of the conservative leaders are complete frauds. So, I am not sure we can actually say that Cucker Tarlson is a Conservative Woke, if he is deliberately lying. He pretends to be enlightened and very aware of everything and can come up with a litany to support his purported moral high ground, but much of it is made up or cherry-picked, deliberately.

So, I suppose it's really the conservative minions who are the conservative wokes.

I have an example. After 9/11 western mosques were being harassed and it was demanded by them (through social pressure) that they condemn the attacks on WTC.

That's compelled speech. In that media climate the Muslim statements were worthless. Even if a mosque community was for the attacks, they would of course have said they weren't.

It was public theatre. Compelled virtue signaling complete bullshit. Harassment of a minority.

It would, of course, have been better to let the Muslims be allowed to share their opinions freely.

We in the west have a tendency to be a bit blind regarding the horrific impact of the cold War in the post-colonial world. The way the Ottoman empire was ripped apart after WWI was not cool. Of course that would lead to a godawful fucking mess.

Religion has a way of stepping in when society fails. What happened isn't bizarre. And I think we could all benefit from everyone feeling able to speak freely.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

"Woke" is now an empty word that means whatever MAGA wants it to mean

MAGA can't explain what "woke" is, but that's the point — it's a "choose your own bigotry" term for Republicans

www.salon.com

"Woke" is currently the favorite word of the right. Republican politicians can't go more that 5 or 6 words without peppering "woke" into their sentences. Turning on Fox News, you'll hear the word "woke" repeated ad nauseam, like a record skipping, but for hours at a time: "woke woke woke woke woke." Everything is "woke": Banks. Children's books. The military. Disney. M&Ms. Super Bowl performances. To be a Republican in the year 2023 is to spend every waking moment outraged and terrified by "woke," certain its wokey tendrils will snake their wokeness into your brain and woke-ify you into wokeitude.

But the funny thing about "woke" is that, while all Republicans hate it, they don't seem to have any idea how to define it. That was hilariously demonstrated in a viral video clip of conservative author Bethany Mandel falling completely apart when asked in an interview to define "woke," a concept she wrote an entire book denouncing. Mandel couldn't do it.

"So, I mean, woke is sort of the idea that, um..." she stammered before admitting it "is something that's very hard to define," and then failing utterly to get close.

Mind you, Mandel was not being cornered by some progressive journalist. She was on a reactionary show with two sympathetic hosts who bent over backward to give Mandel room to explain what "woke" meant, coaxing her gently with, "take your time." Yet she still couldn't define "woke."

I'll give it a go. Today "woke" means leftist extreme intolerance. It's enforced understanding of the needs of perceived minorities. It's using social pressure to force people to be informed about the needs of marginalised groups, be compassionate toward them, thoughtful and kind. Or rather, that you virtue signal all of this. You don't need to actually care about marginalised groups. You just need to make it look like you do. It's fundamentally patronising, since woke is a stance majority group members take, so they can use minorities as an ideological bat to beat other majority member group members with. Because minorities are assumed not being able to speak for themselves.

I think woke is the biggest threat to progressivism and liberal values today. It replaces true progress the bullshit symbols of progress. It leads to newspeak. It makes honesty into a sin.

It's the latest incarnation of ideological purity, scapegoating and mob mentality that we, so lovingly, inherited by, the loving, and caring Christians, who totally care about the poor, weak and unfortunate. Yes, the pope totally needs a gold throne. It's important for his work toward humilty.

Die die Christian culture. Just fucking die already. I'm so sick of it.

That's my take on it.

No, I don't think the conservatives are the good guys. I see the wokes as the leftist versions of fundamentalists. It's the exact same kind of, horrible, behaviour. Both are a result of our shared Christian heritage.

But your interpretation clashes with the current conservative meaning. For example, your interpretation contradicts the current narrative from the right in the USA that the recent bank failures are due to "Woke" banking.

"Woke" has replaced "political correctness" as the approved mode of virtue signalling from the right in the USA.

Woke and pc is the same thing.

Yes, conservatives are great at using the current "bad liberal word" as a magical ju-ju fetish dog whistle. It's a bizarre behaviour. I'm not conservative. They can all go and get fucked as far as I am concerned.

But I do defend the rights of conservatives to be conservative. I think they should be allowed to express all their bigotted and narrow minded opinions freely. Its a hill I am willing to die on.

When conservatives cross the boundry from conservatism to reactionary authoritarianists, destroying the rights of non-MAGAts, I draw the line.

Ok, then. But I hope you understand if people like me see you as a threat to democracy and western civilization?

So the elected alt-right is banning access to any form of abortion where they can, making it against the law to teach certain parts of American history with intentionally directionless laws, banning books in schools.

But the threat to western civilization are people who want to stand up to this tyranny (which was heavily aligned with an attempt to overthrow an American election).

Tolerance, isn't just a pretty word. It actually means something. It's fundamental to making democracy work.

You pride yourself over how tolerant you are. Sadly, your self professed tolerance isn't remotely on par with your understanding of how things are in the States both what the left and right wings are doing as well their fringes.

I hope you understand why I group you together with those who stormed the capitol as the same type of people? People who are a threat to democracy are just as bad, regardless if they're on the right or left.

Yeah, that'd be a false equivalence. A very solid one at that though. One side involves people who attempted to overthrow our democracy, the other... well... didn't.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

"Woke" is now an empty word that means whatever MAGA wants it to mean

MAGA can't explain what "woke" is, but that's the point — it's a "choose your own bigotry" term for Republicans

www.salon.com

"Woke" is currently the favorite word of the right. Republican politicians can't go more that 5 or 6 words without peppering "woke" into their sentences. Turning on Fox News, you'll hear the word "woke" repeated ad nauseam, like a record skipping, but for hours at a time: "woke woke woke woke woke." Everything is "woke": Banks. Children's books. The military. Disney. M&Ms. Super Bowl performances. To be a Republican in the year 2023 is to spend every waking moment outraged and terrified by "woke," certain its wokey tendrils will snake their wokeness into your brain and woke-ify you into wokeitude.

But the funny thing about "woke" is that, while all Republicans hate it, they don't seem to have any idea how to define it. That was hilariously demonstrated in a viral video clip of conservative author Bethany Mandel falling completely apart when asked in an interview to define "woke," a concept she wrote an entire book denouncing. Mandel couldn't do it.

"So, I mean, woke is sort of the idea that, um..." she stammered before admitting it "is something that's very hard to define," and then failing utterly to get close.

Mind you, Mandel was not being cornered by some progressive journalist. She was on a reactionary show with two sympathetic hosts who bent over backward to give Mandel room to explain what "woke" meant, coaxing her gently with, "take your time." Yet she still couldn't define "woke."

I'll give it a go. Today "woke" means leftist extreme intolerance. It's enforced understanding of the needs of perceived minorities. It's using social pressure to force people to be informed about the needs of marginalised groups, be compassionate toward them, thoughtful and kind. Or rather, that you virtue signal all of this. You don't need to actually care about marginalised groups. You just need to make it look like you do. It's fundamentally patronising, since woke is a stance majority group members take, so they can use minorities as an ideological bat to beat other majority member group members with. Because minorities are assumed not being able to speak for themselves.

I think woke is the biggest threat to progressivism and liberal values today. It replaces true progress the bullshit symbols of progress. It leads to newspeak. It makes honesty into a sin.

It's the latest incarnation of ideological purity, scapegoating and mob mentality that we, so lovingly, inherited by, the loving, and caring Christians, who totally care about the poor, weak and unfortunate. Yes, the pope totally needs a gold throne. It's important for his work toward humilty.

Die die Christian culture. Just fucking die already. I'm so sick of it.

That's my take on it.

No, I don't think the conservatives are the good guys. I see the wokes as the leftist versions of fundamentalists. It's the exact same kind of, horrible, behaviour. Both are a result of our shared Christian heritage.

But your interpretation clashes with the current conservative meaning. For example, your interpretation contradicts the current narrative from the right in the USA that the recent bank failures are due to "Woke" banking.

"Woke" has replaced "political correctness" as the approved mode of virtue signalling from the right in the USA.

Woke and pc is the same thing.

Yes, conservatives are great at using the current "bad liberal word" as a magical ju-ju fetish dog whistle. It's a bizarre behaviour. I'm not conservative. They can all go and get fucked as far as I am concerned.

But I do defend the rights of conservatives to be conservative. I think they should be allowed to express all their bigotted and narrow minded opinions freely. Its a hill I am willing to die on.

When conservatives cross the boundry from conservatism to reactionary authoritarianists, destroying the rights of non-MAGAts, I draw the line.

Ok, then. But I hope you understand if people like me see you as a threat to democracy and western civilization?

Tolerance, isn't just a pretty word. It actually means something. It's fundamental to making democracy work.

I hope you understand why I group you together with those who stormed the capitol as the same type of people? People who are a threat to democracy are just as bad, regardless if they're on the right or left.

Google, Carl Popper, the paradox of tolerance.

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Woke" is now an empty word that means whatever MAGA wants it to mean

MAGA can't explain what "woke" is, but that's the point — it's a "choose your own bigotry" term for Republicans

www.salon.com

"Woke" is currently the favorite word of the right. Republican politicians can't go more that 5 or 6 words without peppering "woke" into their sentences. Turning on Fox News, you'll hear the word "woke" repeated ad nauseam, like a record skipping, but for hours at a time: "woke woke woke woke woke." Everything is "woke": Banks. Children's books. The military. Disney. M&Ms. Super Bowl performances. To be a Republican in the year 2023 is to spend every waking moment outraged and terrified by "woke," certain its wokey tendrils will snake their wokeness into your brain and woke-ify you into wokeitude.

But the funny thing about "woke" is that, while all Republicans hate it, they don't seem to have any idea how to define it. That was hilariously demonstrated in a viral video clip of conservative author Bethany Mandel falling completely apart when asked in an interview to define "woke," a concept she wrote an entire book denouncing. Mandel couldn't do it.

"So, I mean, woke is sort of the idea that, um..." she stammered before admitting it "is something that's very hard to define," and then failing utterly to get close.

Mind you, Mandel was not being cornered by some progressive journalist. She was on a reactionary show with two sympathetic hosts who bent over backward to give Mandel room to explain what "woke" meant, coaxing her gently with, "take your time." Yet she still couldn't define "woke."

I'll give it a go. Today "woke" means leftist extreme intolerance. It's enforced understanding of the needs of perceived minorities. It's using social pressure to force people to be informed about the needs of marginalised groups, be compassionate toward them, thoughtful and kind. Or rather, that you virtue signal all of this. You don't need to actually care about marginalised groups. You just need to make it look like you do. It's fundamentally patronising, since woke is a stance majority group members take, so they can use minorities as an ideological bat to beat other majority member group members with. Because minorities are assumed not being able to speak for themselves.

I think woke is the biggest threat to progressivism and liberal values today. It replaces true progress the bullshit symbols of progress. It leads to newspeak. It makes honesty into a sin.

It's the latest incarnation of ideological purity, scapegoating and mob mentality that we, so lovingly, inherited by, the loving, and caring Christians, who totally care about the poor, weak and unfortunate. Yes, the pope totally needs a gold throne. It's important for his work toward humilty.

Die die Christian culture. Just fucking die already. I'm so sick of it.

That's my take on it.

No, I don't think the conservatives are the good guys. I see the wokes as the leftist versions of fundamentalists. It's the exact same kind of, horrible, behaviour. Both are a result of our shared Christian heritage.

But your interpretation clashes with the current conservative meaning. For example, your interpretation contradicts the current narrative from the right in the USA that the recent bank failures are due to "Woke" banking.

"Woke" has replaced "political correctness" as the approved mode of virtue signalling from the right in the USA.

Woke and pc is the same thing.

Yes, conservatives are great at using the current "bad liberal word" as a magical ju-ju fetish dog whistle. It's a bizarre behaviour. I'm not conservative. They can all go and get fucked as far as I am concerned.

But I do defend the rights of conservatives to be conservative. I think they should be allowed to express all their bigotted and narrow minded opinions freely. Its a hill I am willing to die on.

When conservatives cross the boundry from conservatism to reactionary authoritarianists, destroying the rights of non-MAGAts, I draw the line.

Ok, then. But I hope you understand if people like me see you as a threat to democracy and western civilization?

Tolerance, isn't just a pretty word. It actually means something. It's fundamental to making democracy work.

I hope you understand why I group you together with those who stormed the capitol as the same type of people? People who are a threat to democracy are just as bad, regardless if they're on the right or left.

Google, Carl Popper, the paradox of tolerance.

I don't think the people who stormed the capitol were against democracy. I think they thought they were fighting for democracy. When they said that the election was stolen. That's an indicator that they think elections are the tits.

It's got to be OK to be wrong. It's got to be OK to be an idiot.

I have no illusions about Trump. Obviously he's not a friend of democracy. But he was elected in a free and fair election. And then lost in a free and fair election.

That's democracy working as it should.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I don't think the people who stormed the capitol were against democracy. I think they thought they were fighting for democracy. When they said that the election was stolen. That's an indicator that they think elections are the tits.

Look into the history of the Three Percenters and the Proud Boys. They weren’t formed after Trump and Fox News started lying to the American public about the election. Surely some reasonably innocent and ignorant folks got wrapped up in the push but If you think the main instigators were fighting for democracy you don’t really understand what happened that day.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Democracy in the US had always involved conceding defeat, not the loser by millions of votes and way too many EVs declaring theft without taking those claims to court.

American democracy barely crossed the line.

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Woke" is now an empty word that means whatever MAGA wants it to mean

MAGA can't explain what "woke" is, but that's the point — it's a "choose your own bigotry" term for Republicans

www.salon.com

"Woke" is currently the favorite word of the right. Republican politicians can't go more that 5 or 6 words without peppering "woke" into their sentences. Turning on Fox News, you'll hear the word "woke" repeated ad nauseam, like a record skipping, but for hours at a time: "woke woke woke woke woke." Everything is "woke": Banks. Children's books. The military. Disney. M&Ms. Super Bowl performances. To be a Republican in the year 2023 is to spend every waking moment outraged and terrified by "woke," certain its wokey tendrils will snake their wokeness into your brain and woke-ify you into wokeitude.

But the funny thing about "woke" is that, while all Republicans hate it, they don't seem to have any idea how to define it. That was hilariously demonstrated in a viral video clip of conservative author Bethany Mandel falling completely apart when asked in an interview to define "woke," a concept she wrote an entire book denouncing. Mandel couldn't do it.

"So, I mean, woke is sort of the idea that, um..." she stammered before admitting it "is something that's very hard to define," and then failing utterly to get close.

Mind you, Mandel was not being cornered by some progressive journalist. She was on a reactionary show with two sympathetic hosts who bent over backward to give Mandel room to explain what "woke" meant, coaxing her gently with, "take your time." Yet she still couldn't define "woke."

I'll give it a go. Today "woke" means leftist extreme intolerance. It's enforced understanding of the needs of perceived minorities. It's using social pressure to force people to be informed about the needs of marginalised groups, be compassionate toward them, thoughtful and kind. Or rather, that you virtue signal all of this. You don't need to actually care about marginalised groups. You just need to make it look like you do. It's fundamentally patronising, since woke is a stance majority group members take, so they can use minorities as an ideological bat to beat other majority member group members with. Because minorities are assumed not being able to speak for themselves.

I think woke is the biggest threat to progressivism and liberal values today. It replaces true progress the bullshit symbols of progress. It leads to newspeak. It makes honesty into a sin.

It's the latest incarnation of ideological purity, scapegoating and mob mentality that we, so lovingly, inherited by, the loving, and caring Christians, who totally care about the poor, weak and unfortunate. Yes, the pope totally needs a gold throne. It's important for his work toward humilty.

Die die Christian culture. Just fucking die already. I'm so sick of it.

That's my take on it.

No, I don't think the conservatives are the good guys. I see the wokes as the leftist versions of fundamentalists. It's the exact same kind of, horrible, behaviour. Both are a result of our shared Christian heritage.

But your interpretation clashes with the current conservative meaning. For example, your interpretation contradicts the current narrative from the right in the USA that the recent bank failures are due to "Woke" banking.

"Woke" has replaced "political correctness" as the approved mode of virtue signalling from the right in the USA.

Woke and pc is the same thing.

Yes, conservatives are great at using the current "bad liberal word" as a magical ju-ju fetish dog whistle. It's a bizarre behaviour. I'm not conservative. They can all go and get fucked as far as I am concerned.

But I do defend the rights of conservatives to be conservative. I think they should be allowed to express all their bigotted and narrow minded opinions freely. Its a hill I am willing to die on.

When conservatives cross the boundry from conservatism to reactionary authoritarianists, destroying the rights of non-MAGAts, I draw the line.

Ok, then. But I hope you understand if people like me see you as a threat to democracy and western civilization?

Tolerance, isn't just a pretty word. It actually means something. It's fundamental to making democracy work.

I hope you understand why I group you together with those who stormed the capitol as the same type of people? People who are a threat to democracy are just as bad, regardless if they're on the right or left.

Google, Carl Popper, the paradox of tolerance.

It doesn't apply here. There is no side here that is openly against democracy or democratic principals.

In Sweden we have old school Nazis. They think violence and terror was legitimate tools in a democracy. That needs to be stopped. The MAGA crowd thought Hillary was Hitler. They are stupid. But its the same fight. They are not anti democratic. They are retarded. Its different

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think the people who stormed the capitol were against democracy. I think they thought they were fighting for democracy. When they said that the election was stolen. That's an indicator that they think elections are the tits.

Look into the history of the Three Percenters and the Proud Boys. They weren’t formed after Trump and Fox News started lying to the American public about the election. Surely some reasonably innocent and ignorant folks got wrapped up in the push but If you think the main instigators were fighting for democracy you don’t really understand what happened that day.

Both of those groups are militant fanatics fighting FOR democracy

 

[Shadowy Man]

It doesn't apply here. There is no side here that is openly against democracy or democratic principals.

Here in the US we do indeed have a side that is openly against democracy and democratic principles. This has been espoused by elected representatives in our Congress.

 

[TomC]

I have no illusions about Trump. Obviously he's not a friend of democracy. But he was elected in a free and fair election. And then lost in a free and fair election.

Lots of people, even my fellow citizens, often misunderstand this.
Trump was never elected in any free and fair election ever.

He ran in two elections. He came in second in both, by millions of votes. But the American electorate doesn't elect our presidents, they are appointed by the delegates selected by state legislatures. In 2016, the EC appointed him President, in 2020 they didn't.

The system is archaic. It's main purpose now is to protect the interests of conservative white folks, IMNSHO.
But that's how it works here in the USA.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

I don't think the people who stormed the capitol were against democracy. I think they thought they were fighting for democracy. When they said that the election was stolen. That's an indicator that they think elections are the tits.

Look into the history of the Three Percenters and the Proud Boys. They weren’t formed after Trump and Fox News started lying to the American public about the election. Surely some reasonably innocent and ignorant folks got wrapped up in the push but If you think the main instigators were fighting for democracy you don’t really understand what happened that day.

That is absolutely the case, and I am gobsmacked by Dr Z’s naïveté. I feel like I need re-evaluate my ideas about foreigners’ perception of American political dynamics.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

"Woke" is now an empty word that means whatever MAGA wants it to mean

MAGA can't explain what "woke" is, but that's the point — it's a "choose your own bigotry" term for Republicans

www.salon.com

"Woke" is currently the favorite word of the right. Republican politicians can't go more that 5 or 6 words without peppering "woke" into their sentences. Turning on Fox News, you'll hear the word "woke" repeated ad nauseam, like a record skipping, but for hours at a time: "woke woke woke woke woke." Everything is "woke": Banks. Children's books. The military. Disney. M&Ms. Super Bowl performances. To be a Republican in the year 2023 is to spend every waking moment outraged and terrified by "woke," certain its wokey tendrils will snake their wokeness into your brain and woke-ify you into wokeitude.

But the funny thing about "woke" is that, while all Republicans hate it, they don't seem to have any idea how to define it. That was hilariously demonstrated in a viral video clip of conservative author Bethany Mandel falling completely apart when asked in an interview to define "woke," a concept she wrote an entire book denouncing. Mandel couldn't do it.

"So, I mean, woke is sort of the idea that, um..." she stammered before admitting it "is something that's very hard to define," and then failing utterly to get close.

Mind you, Mandel was not being cornered by some progressive journalist. She was on a reactionary show with two sympathetic hosts who bent over backward to give Mandel room to explain what "woke" meant, coaxing her gently with, "take your time." Yet she still couldn't define "woke."

I'll give it a go. Today "woke" means leftist extreme intolerance. It's enforced understanding of the needs of perceived minorities. It's using social pressure to force people to be informed about the needs of marginalised groups, be compassionate toward them, thoughtful and kind. Or rather, that you virtue signal all of this. You don't need to actually care about marginalised groups. You just need to make it look like you do. It's fundamentally patronising, since woke is a stance majority group members take, so they can use minorities as an ideological bat to beat other majority member group members with. Because minorities are assumed not being able to speak for themselves.

I think woke is the biggest threat to progressivism and liberal values today. It replaces true progress the bullshit symbols of progress. It leads to newspeak. It makes honesty into a sin.

It's the latest incarnation of ideological purity, scapegoating and mob mentality that we, so lovingly, inherited by, the loving, and caring Christians, who totally care about the poor, weak and unfortunate. Yes, the pope totally needs a gold throne. It's important for his work toward humilty.

Die die Christian culture. Just fucking die already. I'm so sick of it.

That's my take on it.

No, I don't think the conservatives are the good guys. I see the wokes as the leftist versions of fundamentalists. It's the exact same kind of, horrible, behaviour. Both are a result of our shared Christian heritage.

But your interpretation clashes with the current conservative meaning. For example, your interpretation contradicts the current narrative from the right in the USA that the recent bank failures are due to "Woke" banking.

"Woke" has replaced "political correctness" as the approved mode of virtue signalling from the right in the USA.

Woke and pc is the same thing.

Yes, conservatives are great at using the current "bad liberal word" as a magical ju-ju fetish dog whistle. It's a bizarre behaviour. I'm not conservative. They can all go and get fucked as far as I am concerned.

But I do defend the rights of conservatives to be conservative. I think they should be allowed to express all their bigotted and narrow minded opinions freely. Its a hill I am willing to die on.

When conservatives cross the boundry from conservatism to reactionary authoritarianists, destroying the rights of non-MAGAts, I draw the line.

Ok, then. But I hope you understand if people like me see you as a threat to democracy and western civilization?

Tolerance, isn't just a pretty word. It actually means something. It's fundamental to making democracy work.

I hope you understand why I group you together with those who stormed the capitol as the same type of people? People who are a threat to democracy are just as bad, regardless if they're on the right or left.

Google, Carl Popper, the paradox of tolerance.

It doesn't apply here. There is no side here that is openly against democracy or democratic principals.

In Sweden we have old school Nazis. They think violence and terror was legitimate tools in a democracy. That needs to be stopped. The MAGA crowd thought Hillary was Hitler. They are stupid. But its the same fight. They are not anti democratic. They are retarded. Its different

You mean like 123 sitting GOP congressmen refusing to accept the votes of the citizens of Pennsylvania and Arizona? Or the GOP false electors? Or the GOP voter caging, voter discouragment, harassment and efforts to make it harder for people to register and actually vote. And all the lying about stolen elections, non-existent vote fraud and encouragement of violence on the right to "take our country back"?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Democracy in the US had always involved conceding defeat, not the loser by millions of votes and way too many EVs declaring theft without taking those claims to court.

That's an essential aspect of any democracy.

I agree that Trump isn't a fascist.

American democracy barely crossed the line.

Hogwash. If Trump would have made himself president for life, I am sure his own bodyguard would have killed him in an instant.

I get the Americans have, in general, pretty strong opinions in favour of democracy.

Trump would only have had broad support as long as his base thought Trump was defending democracy. I find it hard to believe many in America would have accepted to be ruled by emperor Trumpatine

 

[Elixir]

You mean like 123 sitting GOP congressmen refusing to accept the votes of the citizens of Pennsylvania and Arizona? Or the GOP false electors? Or the GOP voter caging, voter discouragment, harassment and efforts to make it harder for people to register and actually vote. And all the lying about stolen elections, non-existent vote fraud and encouragement of violence on the right to "take our country back"?

Right, exactly. Maybe Dr Z’s concept of democracy is entirely different from what I have understood for well over a half century.

 

[Elixir]

Hogwash. If Trump would have made himself president for life, I am sure his own bodyguard would have killed him in an instant.

That speaks to your uh, ignorance Dr.
His bodyguard was complicit.
I guess you too, refrained from watching those boring hearings, right?
Presumably the name Tony Ornato doesn’t mean anything to you.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Democracy in the US had always involved conceding defeat, not the loser by millions of votes and way too many EVs declaring theft without taking those claims to court.

That's an essential aspect of any democracy.

I agree that Trump isn't a fascist.

American democracy barely crossed the line.

Hogwash. If Trump would have made himself president for life, I am sure his own bodyguard would have killed him in an instant.

I get the Americans have, in general, pretty strong opinions in favour of democracy.

Trump would only have had broad support as long as his base thought Trump was defending democracy. I find it hard to believe many in America would have accepted to be ruled by emperor Trumpatine

Over half the GOP voted for a Constitutional crisis in the Electoral College. Over fraud that they was itself, fraudulently claimed.

 

[TomC]

If Trump would have made himself president for life, I am sure his own bodyguard would have killed him in an instant.

I cannot imagine why you think that.
Most of the GOP are still trying to protect him.
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think the people who stormed the capitol were against democracy. I think they thought they were fighting for democracy. When they said that the election was stolen. That's an indicator that they think elections are the tits.

Look into the history of the Three Percenters and the Proud Boys. They weren’t formed after Trump and Fox News started lying to the American public about the election. Surely some reasonably innocent and ignorant folks got wrapped up in the push but If you think the main instigators were fighting for democracy you don’t really understand what happened that day.

That is absolutely the case, and I am gobsmacked by Dr Z’s naïveté. I feel like I need re-evaluate my ideas about foreigners’ perception of American political dynamics.

You sound hysterical

 

[Elixir]

I don't think the people who stormed the capitol were against democracy. I think they thought they were fighting for democracy. When they said that the election was stolen. That's an indicator that they think elections are the tits.

Look into the history of the Three Percenters and the Proud Boys. They weren’t formed after Trump and Fox News started lying to the American public about the election. Surely some reasonably innocent and ignorant folks got wrapped up in the push but If you think the main instigators were fighting for democracy you don’t really understand what happened that day.

That is absolutely the case, and I am gobsmacked by Dr Z’s naïveté. I feel like I need re-evaluate my ideas about foreigners’ perception of American political dynamics.

You sound hysterical

Another misperception. I’m disappointed.
Not in you, Dr. - In the way my Country presents itself that leads to your delusion.
I have no idea why the treasonous intent of the perpetrators of the 1/6 coup attempt has not been effectively communicated to the rest of the world.

 

[TomC]

You sound hysterical

@Elixir and I disagree about a great many things.
This is not one. You really don't seem to understand the way things work here.
Tom