Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

[Rhea]

They can’t access the feeling of contentment and charity without someone instructing them to it – or they think they can’t. The idea of loss of this life comfort is terrifying (“what if it goes away when god goes away?”). The step is huge, the chasm is black and deep to them. So the cost of hanging on to the belief in something they don’t bother prove is much less troublesome than the feared cost of what they think they will lose by exploring that proof.

But what if the goal is to achieve as much contentment and feelings of charity as possible? Given that question, ss theism a rational belief or not? I don't think atheists are superior people in any way to theists. We've just somewhat different interests and therefore have received the necessary tools to successfully argue for god's improbability. But are we because of this more content?

That is my husband's argument for why Religion should not be mocked. If those people need that to be decent, why take it away? They might stop being decent. My take is that their fear is unfounded and they will actually continue to be decent once their god belief is gone.

We haven't settled the truth of those positions yet...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That is my husband's argument for why Religion should not be mocked. If those people need that to be decent, why take it away? They might stop being decent. My take is that their fear is unfounded and they will actually continue to be decent once their god belief is gone.

We haven't settled the truth of those positions yet...

Ya, it's kind of an invalid premise that religion makes people decent. There's no evidence that religion makes people any better or more decent and nice people will continue to be nice without getting a divine pat on the head for it and assholes will continue to be assholes without having a divine command to justify their behaviour.

It's a lot of unecessary baggage to carry around to get to a result that it doesn't actually bring.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That is my husband's argument for why Religion should not be mocked. If those people need that to be decent, why take it away? They might stop being decent. My take is that their fear is unfounded and they will actually continue to be decent once their god belief is gone.

We haven't settled the truth of those positions yet...

Ya, it's kind of an invalid premise that religion makes people decent. There's no evidence that religion makes people any better or more decent and nice people will continue to be nice without getting a divine pat on the head for it and assholes will continue to be assholes without having a divine command to justify their behaviour.

It's a lot of unecessary baggage to carry around to get to a result that it doesn't actually bring.

Socrates disproved that with the Euthyphro Dilemma. Nobody would belong to a religion which morals they didn't share. So morals never come from religion and never have.

Plus that holy books are often twisted beyond recognition. I once attended an on-line Bible study class run by Jehovas witness. They had a reading companion to it. I assumed in my naivete that the reading companion was somehow intended to explain the context within which the Bible was written. I assumed wrong. I'm well read on Roman history, as well as the history of Christianity. So when I questioned whether or not that interpretation made any sense, within or without context, they got very angry with me. Apparently their Biblical interpretation guide is just pulled out of somebody's ass. There was one passage that made the exact opposite interpretation of what the text clearly read. At that point I bowed out and wished them all the luck with whatever their master plan is. They could be using a manual to a toaster and draw the same moral code.

Don't worry. I just did it out of curiosity/fun. At no point was I even remotely attracted to joining. I've always been an atheist. But a curious one.

 

[Rhea]

That would be kind of an interesting question on a Christian or Islam forum. "Do you think you would be a decent person if you had a crisis of belief? Or would you become someone who has completely different morals that you currently would reject?" (assumes they are decent in the first place, but it's safe to assume they all think they are, IMHO.)

 

[Tigers!]

We keep praying because we believe and are convinced that God is listening and does care.

But you choose the least convincing things to pray about. And the difference between what you say and what you do is what you do. You just don’t act the way people who really believe would act.

Pray tell, you know all that precisely how?

 

[bilby]

Simple logic:

If God answers your prayers, and you pray for an end to child abuse, then child abuse has ended.

Child abuse has not ended. So either God doesn't answer your prayers, and your belief is wrong; or you don't pray for an end to child abuse, which (if you really believed, and were a good person) you would.

So either your belief is wrong; or you are not a nice person.

Of course, if your God was good, all knowing, and all powerful, your prayers would be futile - even insulting to God. He knows; He has decided not to do what you ask; Why are you trying to tell him that you know better than He what should be done?

 

[Tigers!]

Why does love have to be by nature illusory? If love is illusory then your relationship to a spouse, parent, child etc is on shaky ground. When you say to someone "I love you" are you saying something that is not true ? If so then how can one trust you any in any way?

I'm saying that love is illusory in the the same way as porn is real sex. Pornography can and will make your horny. Your (our) sexual instincts are too stupid to be able to tell the difference between that and the real deal. In the same way, our brain is too stupid to be able to tell the difference between real love from somebody and some stimuli that mimics all the right signals. Imaginary love can feel just as real as genuine love.

If you equate sex with love (all too common it seems) then you could be fooled. It is sad though if you can't distinguish between the effect caused by porn and the feeling engendered by sex with someone who love and trust and will be with you for better or worse.

Sorry if I come across as arrogant. But at some point the molly-coddling of silly beliefs, just because we're supposed to respect other's religious beliefs, has to stop. It dumbs down the entire discourse and, I believe, makes us all dumber. So I'm done with it.

You noted that you have some concern about appearing arrogant. Your quote "You might tell yourself that the existence of god is important to you. But I know that it isn't." is indeed arrogant. You have never met me (nor I you) and yet you feel obligated to tell me that you know that I know that God is not important to me.

Even though I don't know you, I do believe I know enough about you to draw this conclusion.

Here's my premises:
1) There are only invalid arguments for belief in god.
2) You're a theist.
3) You're not an idiot.

I can only think of a single valid conclusion that follows all three. Please enlighten me if I've missed something?

I agree with premise 3
I agree with premise 2
I don't agree with premise 1 which is the hinge of the whole discussion. That's why these discussions have been raging for > 2000 years.

I don't like being rude. I detest arrogance myself. But if we keep entertaining the possibility that god exists, we won't get interesting discussions about religion and religious faith. It'll just stay on the current, silly, level. This is de facto an atheist forum. So here I can be as arrogant as I want about my atheism without feeling bad. In any other situation I would be a lot more considerate with how I formulated myself.

If you don't entertain the possibility that God exists then you won't get interesting discussions about religion and religious faith. You have removed the whole basis for any discussion.

If you are not really interested in what your respondents have to offer why do you start such threads in the first place? Are you just after affirmations from those who think like you or are you really curious?

This thread is about why a person would be a theist in spite of gods non-existence. That is what I'm asking about and what I'm interested in. At no point in this thread have I entertained the possibility that theism isn't a false belief.

It's good to have an open mind. But not so open that one's brain falls out. I'm 39 now. I've never heard an argument for the existence of god that isn't retarded. All are just dumb as hell. And it's not like I haven't tried finding them. I like philosophy. I'm well read. My conclusion is that a million flies can be wrong. At some point we need to stop whipping this dead horse. Therefore I've stopped listening to theist arguments. But it doesn't answer the question why so many are theists (in spite of gods non-existence). Hence this thread and my question.

If you have stopped listening to theist arguments then why bother wondering why there are so many theists?

 

[Rhea]

But you choose the least convincing things to pray about. And the difference between what you say and what you do is what you do. You just don’t act the way people who really believe would act.

Pray tell, you know all that precisely how?

By "you" I mean Christians in general and I conclude this based on what I see them do. Praying at football games, praying for jobs, praying for gays to not get marriage rights. And, conspicuously, NOT having big public prayers to stop child abuse and child rape. IF I were a goodhearted person (which I believe most people are) and IF I believed, truly believed! that prayer got results, I would pray to stop the horrors. I would not stop praying. Holy shit, if all I have to do is really believe it - and if I already did - and that would move mountains into the sea! I would not be able to get off my knees until abuse was stopped by prayer.

But not you, huh? What do you pray for? What is it that you truly believe will come to pass so much that you ask for it?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I prayed that Tom Brady would throw a couple of touchdown passes.

It was kind of a gimme for the man, but God did step up and provide.

Thanks, God!

Tough break about the raped children, but I have my fantasy football standings to think of.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

Prayer invites the Eternal Presence to suffuse or spirits and let God's will prevail in our lives.
Prayer cannot

bring water to parched fields,
or mend a broken bridge,
or rebuild a ruined city;​

but prayer can

water an arid soul,
mend a broken heart,
and rebuild a weakened will.​

 

[bilby]

Prayer invites the Eternal Presence to suffuse or spirits and let God's will prevail in our lives.
Prayer cannot

bring water to parched fields,
or mend a broken bridge,
or rebuild a ruined city;​

but prayer can

water an arid soul,
mend a broken heart,
and rebuild a weakened will.​

So can Zoloft.

No Gods are required in either case.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

Prayer invites the Eternal Presence to suffuse or spirits and let God's will prevail in our lives.
Prayer cannot

bring water to parched fields,
or mend a broken bridge,
or rebuild a ruined city;​

but prayer can

water an arid soul,
mend a broken heart,
and rebuild a weakened will.​

So can Zoloft.

No Gods are required in either case.

Only if you are depressed.... Nice Try.... Point missed

 

[bilby]

So can Zoloft.

No Gods are required in either case.

Only if you are depressed.... Nice Try.... Point missed

If you made a less woolly point, it would be an easier target.

But then, you know that.

WTF is a soul; how does it become arid, and why would it matter if it did? Solving imaginary problems is a waste of effort.

A broken heart is just a common phrase meaning extreme sadness or sense of loss. Zoloft to the rescue!

Motivation rebuilds weakened wills, without needing recourse to prayer; If you find prayer motivational, then good on you - but there is no need to imagine that its motivating power is caused by a supernatural being, nor that others would find it motivating.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm saying that love is illusory in the the same way as porn is real sex. Pornography can and will make your horny. Your (our) sexual instincts are too stupid to be able to tell the difference between that and the real deal. In the same way, our brain is too stupid to be able to tell the difference between real love from somebody and some stimuli that mimics all the right signals. Imaginary love can feel just as real as genuine love.

If you equate sex with love (all too common it seems) then you could be fooled. It is sad though if you can't distinguish between the effect caused by porn and the feeling engendered by sex with someone who love and trust and will be with you for better or worse.

I can distinguish it intellectually. But I still get a boner when I look at porn. All the same horny hormones rage through my body. I don't think our brains can tell the difference. Obviously sex with somebody you love/have a relationship with is of course better. It satisfies all manner of other emotional needs as well. But as far as the sex goes, I'd argue that the feelings of horniness is the same, even if the activities are different.

It's the same kind of thing going on for the feeling of love. Like I said earlier, if you can feel a persons love just from reading a text message from that person, you've already proven that triggering those powerful feelings and reactions does not require the physical person to be present, or even exist. You are in effect just imagining that person and using that memory to trigger them. The exact same dynamic can be applied to an entity that has never existed, and is purely imaginary. Which is what the porn analogy was about.

I don't agree with premise 1 which is the hinge of the whole discussion. That's why these discussions have been raging for > 2000 years.

Now you know how my line of reasoning went. I have no interest in trying to convince you of it.

If you have stopped listening to theist arguments then why bother wondering why there are so many theists?

Because it's interesting why so many so badly want to believe something that is clearly false. The logical backflips and self deceit required to maintain theist beliefs are quite astonishing. That means that the pay-off for holding theist beliefs must be very high. Or that's my hypothesis at least. I would like to understand what that pay-off is.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Prayer invites the Eternal Presence to suffuse or spirits and let God's will prevail in our lives.
Prayer cannot

bring water to parched fields,
or mend a broken bridge,
or rebuild a ruined city;​

but prayer can

water an arid soul,
mend a broken heart,
and rebuild a weakened will.​

This is interesting. So how does that work? How does prayer rebuild a weakened will or broken heart?

 

[Rhea]

Prayer invites the Eternal Presence to suffuse or spirits and let God's will prevail in our lives.
Prayer cannot

bring water to parched fields,
or mend a broken bridge,
or rebuild a ruined city;​

but prayer can

water an arid soul,
mend a broken heart,
and rebuild a weakened will.​

So this answers the OP in that even without the god actually existing, the rituals bring peace and strength. Like meditation, hobbies and community involvement.

It is not the act of a god fulfilling the prayer, it is the act of praying. Which I believe is indeed true. Often self-reflection, relaxation techniques and meditation will bring these feelings. Some people maybe "need" the god-shortcut to believe their meditation will work?

 

[HaRaAYaH]

Only if you are depressed.... Nice Try.... Point missed

If you made a less woolly point, it would be an easier target.

But then, you know that.

WTF is a soul; how does it become arid, and why would it matter if it did? Solving imaginary problems is a waste of effort.

A broken heart is just a common phrase meaning extreme sadness or sense of loss. Zoloft to the rescue!

Motivation rebuilds weakened wills, without needing recourse to prayer; If you find prayer motivational, then good on you - but there is no need to imagine that its motivating power is caused by a supernatural being, nor that others would find it motivating.

First, it's cheaper than Zoloft and it has less side effects. Also a prescription is not required. Also, if you don't understand metaphor and use of language to make a point, well that's your loss.

My point was not every theist views prayer the same way. In Judaism,there are very few individual prayers, not none, but very few. Most prayers are in the plural. It's not heal me, it's heal us. Prayers for rain are only added in the rainy season. Vain prayer is not permitted. If your wife tells you she is pregnant, you are not permitted to pray for a boy as that has already been determined. A prayer is man's way to question God, an act not only approved but almost expected in Judaism:

“Why do you pray?" he asked me, after a moment.

Why did I pray? A strange question. Why did I live? Why did I breathe?

"I don't know why," I said, even more disturbed and ill at ease. "I don't know why."

After that day I saw him often. He explained to me with great insistence that every question possessed a power that did not lie in the answer. "Man raises himself toward God by the questions he asks Him," he was fond of repeating. "That is the true dialogue. Man questions God and God answers. But we don't understand His answers. We can't understand them. Because they come from the depths of the soul, and they stay there until death. You will find the true answers, Eliezer, only within yourself!"

"And why do you pray, Moshe?" I asked him. "I pray to the God within me that He will give me the strength to ask Him the right questions.”

Elie Wisel in Night.

 

[dx713]

That's a good point.
We often focus on the "football prayer" we see fundies perform in public, or other form of ritualistic, person oriented, prayer ("so help me god" anyone?), but those aren't necessarily the majority of prayers.
I have heard Catholic priests advice "do not pray to ask god to do something for you, pray to ask god what you can do for him".

In this point of view, whether "god" is a supernatural entity or a part of yourself becomes irrelevant.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Prayer invites the Eternal Presence to suffuse or spirits and let God's will prevail in our lives.
Prayer cannot

bring water to parched fields,
or mend a broken bridge,
or rebuild a ruined city;​

but prayer can

water an arid soul,
mend a broken heart,
and rebuild a weakened will.​

A placebo can cure one of symptoms from a disease.

 

[dx713]

So there's nothing irrational or shameful about helping oneself with a dose of placebo, as long as you don't force it down others' throats.