Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

[angelo]

Some reasonable persons is capable of switching off their brain when it comes to a belief in the supernatural. I've been trying to figure that out for decades. I've come to the conclusion that it's the way we are reared by our elders when at an impressionable age.

 

[Tigers!]

If you have stopped listening to theists arguments then you have no apparent interest in what the pay off might be.

Sorry. I was unclear. I'll rephrase that. I've stopped listening to theist arguments for god (because they'll inevitably always turn out to be shallow and stupid). But that doesn't mean theist faith is shallow or stupid. My going theory is that religion has a lot of depth and wisdom to offer us. Especially insights into the human psyche and tools to help us manage life. That's why I'm asking and what I'm trying to explore/learn. Religion is a hell of a lot more than just an exercise in finding out whether god/gods exists.

I am happy to talk to you about such things then.

 

[Tigers!]

By "you" I mean Christians in general and I conclude this based on what I see them do. Praying at football games, praying for jobs, praying for gays to not get marriage rights. And, conspicuously, NOT having big public prayers to stop child abuse and child rape. IF I were a goodhearted person (which I believe most people are) and IF I believed, truly believed! that prayer got results, I would pray to stop the horrors. I would not stop praying. Holy shit, if all I have to do is really believe it - and if I already did - and that would move mountains into the sea! I would not be able to get off my knees until abuse was stopped by prayer.

But not you, huh? What do you pray for? What is it that you truly believe will come to pass so much that you ask for it?

An end to child abuse is certainly something worthy of much sustained prayer.

So do you spend days doing it or not? If not, why on earth not? If you really think you can make a difference in something by praying about it, what makes you STOP praying when abuse still occurs?

Sadly it is a poor reflection on me that I do not do enough.

You dodged the question. What would make you do that? Hard question? Embarrassing answer?

Certainly embarrassing for me

Do you or do you not spend most of your waking hours praying about child abuse since you believe prayer makes a difference?

Both prayer and action are required. It is not enough for me just to pray. I need to be involved in stopping such abuse. Support those who have been abused, help before the abuse happens etc.
Similarities in fact to another recent thread talking about rape IIRC. The first thing I must do is not be abusive myself.

 

[bilby]

By "you" I mean Christians in general and I conclude this based on what I see them do. Praying at football games, praying for jobs, praying for gays to not get marriage rights. And, conspicuously, NOT having big public prayers to stop child abuse and child rape. IF I were a goodhearted person (which I believe most people are) and IF I believed, truly believed! that prayer got results, I would pray to stop the horrors. I would not stop praying. Holy shit, if all I have to do is really believe it - and if I already did - and that would move mountains into the sea! I would not be able to get off my knees until abuse was stopped by prayer.

But not you, huh? What do you pray for? What is it that you truly believe will come to pass so much that you ask for it?

An end to child abuse is certainly something worthy of much sustained prayer.

So do you spend days doing it or not? If not, why on earth not? If you really think you can make a difference in something by praying about it, what makes you STOP praying when abuse still occurs?

Sadly it is a poor reflection on me that I do not do enough.

You dodged the question. What would make you do that? Hard question? Embarrassing answer?

Certainly embarrassing for me

Do you or do you not spend most of your waking hours praying about child abuse since you believe prayer makes a difference?

Both prayer and action are required. It is not enough for me just to pray. I need to be involved in stopping such abuse. Support those who have been abused, help before the abuse happens etc.
Similarities in fact to another recent thread talking about rape IIRC. The first thing I must do is not be abusive myself.

Not being abusive yourself doesn't seem like a huge effort.

For the rest, can't God do at least some of the work? Surely He knows your limits, and steps in where more is needed, right?

So child abuse simply cannot occur. Not with God helping you out. Surely?

 

[Perspicuo]

Because to the reasonable person belief in God by itself is harmless.

I have some friends on Facebook who have never mentioned God. One was probably atheist or at least skeptical. Then they had their first babies. The one who was probably very skeptical turned to Buddhism, the other started to post religious-y things.

I think it's fascinating. I think it's because with kids you have a greater responsibility in life, which in turn makes you more afraid of death, ergo, weeeeeeeeee...

It's just a guess. Maybe it's just coincidence.

 

[Rhea]

Because to the reasonable person belief in God by itself is harmless.

I have some friends on Facebook who have never mentioned God. One was probably atheist or at least skeptical. Then they had their first babies. The one who was probably very skeptical turned to Buddhism, the other started to post religious-y things.

I think it's fascinating. I think it's because with kids you have a greater responsibility in life, which in turn makes you more afraid of death, ergo, weeeeeeeeee...

It's just a guess. Maybe it's just coincidence.

No, not a coincidence; I think you do have a point. When I had my first child I experienced intense feelings of fear for his care. When my husband left for work I had intense feelings of worry for his safety. When we switched and he stayed home for his paternity leave and I went off to work, I had intense feelings of worry while I drove or did anything that might leave that baby without resources and a protector. So I think parenthood may indeed seek the kind of salve that belief can bring (although, when you think it through, a god's never shown much ability to save babies on a large scale, so...)

 

[Rhea]

Do you or do you not spend most of your waking hours praying about child abuse since you believe prayer makes a difference?

Both prayer and action are required. It is not enough for me just to pray.

Really? Why? (aside from the bible saying explicitly that it is enough)
But really, you don't actually believe in the power of prayer to do anything without human action? That's kind of what we are claiming...

we say, "skip the prayer, go straight to action" and we have evidence that it works quite reliably.

 

[Rhea]

Similarities in fact to another recent thread talking about rape IIRC. The first thing I must do is not be abusive myself.

You are a rapist? Or a child abuser?
If that is true, then we should talk about avenues to get you help. Especially with child abuse; intervention, education and support can go a long long way in freeing you of that behavior. I'm serious in this. If you are worried that your actions may be causing harm to children, there ARE resources you can seek to help educate and rehabilitate yourself to learn new reactions that can change everything.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because to the reasonable person belief in God by itself is harmless.

I have some friends on Facebook who have never mentioned God. One was probably atheist or at least skeptical. Then they had their first babies. The one who was probably very skeptical turned to Buddhism, the other started to post religious-y things.

I think it's fascinating. I think it's because with kids you have a greater responsibility in life, which in turn makes you more afraid of death, ergo, weeeeeeeeee...

It's just a guess. Maybe it's just coincidence.

I don't think it's coincidence either. I've heard it explained as a little bit of you is now suddenly running around out in the world doing unpredictable things. Since the love for children is a kind of self-love it becomes a transcendent experience. It's an experience where what you feel is you, is no longer is confined by your physical body. The leap from there to supernatural belief is not particularly large. Especially if a person isn't accustomed to metaphysical (philosophical) language they might find it hard to express. Anything that seemingly defies explanation is bound to been seen as somehow magical and mystical (even though it isn't). I don't have children of my own. So this is all theoretical to me.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

No it can't.

The Placebo effect is real and measurable. Especially when curing pain. It's been thoroughly studied by now. So yeah... if your faith in something is strong enough it really can cure you. You'll get an up to 30% improvement. It's the same if you pray for something to get healed or are prayed for. The effect of course goes away if you're not aware of that other people are praying for you. So it's basically the power of positive thinking. Positive thinking alone can trigger the release of unidentified hormones in the brain that do good shit for you.

But obviously there are limits. Placebo (or prayer) has never been able to cure a broken bone. It can't even speed up recovery.

But the take-away is that the healing power of prayer can exist and be real even if God (or the supernatural) doesn't exist. So it doesn't help the theist case one bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Pain is about the only case where placebos have any effect. If that were the case, why take any medication that has side effects when you can take placebo. Why control against placebo to determine if a medication is effective. Placebo's don't work. You can't cure cancer with them or treat heart failure or diabetes.

I also didn't make the claim that prayer proved God exists. Belief in God is just that belief. I don't believe evolution is true, I know it is. If I could prove God existed, I woudn't believe, I would know.

I was trying to point out that not all theists view prayer as laundry list of requests that man makes of God.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

In my small experience the less intellect and information a person possesses the more they are religious. The pseudo knowledge that is religion is a satisfactory substitute for genuine knowledge that comes from curiosity and experience, a reasonable arrangement if basic needs are perceived and met. If not, all bets are off and people jettison religion for another religion or no religion. And lets remember that for millenia the non-religious have been murdered by the religious, so religious affiliation and loyalty has been selected for over many generations.

If we took all the young children and taught them about all the religions, their histories, founders, leaders, how they differ, how they're similar, that they might be true and might not be true, and let those children grow up in an environment where it would not matter what, if any, religion they chose to practice, I am certain religion would disappear as we know it. But the parents and the people in the robes would never let that happen, and therefore it endures as we know it.

So reasonable people continue to be religious because in the context of their lives it is the reasonable thing to do.

 

[angelo]

The fact state that it's still the less educated who are followers of some faith. Look at islam, the vast majority of its followers are illiterate, and that's just how their leaders want it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The fact state that it's still the less educated who are followers of some faith. Look at islam, the vast majority of its followers are illiterate, and that's just how their leaders want it.

Lack of education correlate to any number of things. It can correlate to being generally more troubled. Poverty leads to lack of oportunities leads to lack of education and so on. Poverty itself tends to be a self-perpetuating vicious circle trapping those inside. If religion truly is an effective tool to help people deal with emotional issues in their lives, it's obvious why poor and uneducated people would have a greater need for just such a tool. So I think that would rather prove than disprove my point, that reasonable (and intelligent) people can be religious for reasonable and intelligent reasons.

 

[angelo]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...e-religious-people-generally-less-intelligent

 

[angelo]

These people are much more likely to be religious.
http://www.technologyreview.com/vie...ericans-are-scientifically-illiterate-part-i/

 

[DrZoidberg]

These people are much more likely to be religious.
http://www.technologyreview.com/vie...ericans-are-scientifically-illiterate-part-i/

Neither of those are good counter arguments IMHO.

 

[Sajara]

I don't buy the lack of education bit.

Certainly, those who are less educated are more likely to buy into religion...but there are certainly plenty of intelligent, well-educated people who are religious. My brother is one of them. He is a Professor in Engineering. From our talks, his belief comes down to...it makes him feel good to believe in God.

That's it in a nutshell to me. People believe because it makes them feel good. It is a crutch against an uncaring, harsh reality.

 

[angelo]

But do these Professors and such, deep down, do they really believe that a man rose from the dead? Or that Mo flew on a flying horse and deny that he was a pedo?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't buy the lack of education bit.

Certainly, those who are less educated are more likely to buy into religion...but there are certainly plenty of intelligent, well-educated people who are religious. My brother is one of them. He is a Professor in Engineering. From our talks, his belief comes down to...it makes him feel good to believe in God.

That's it in a nutshell to me. People believe because it makes them feel good. It is a crutch against an uncaring, harsh reality.

That's what I'm trying to get to. In what way does it make him feel good and why?

- - - Updated - - -

But do these Professors and such, deep down, do they really believe that a man rose from the dead? Or that Mo flew on a flying horse and deny that he was a pedo?

Do you really think all religion is this fucking shallow?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't buy the lack of education bit.

Certainly, those who are less educated are more likely to buy into religion...

You are contradicting yourself. Do you see that?

but there are certainly plenty of intelligent, well-educated people who are religious. My brother is one of them. He is a Professor in Engineering. From our talks, his belief comes down to...it makes him feel good to believe in God.

And now you are qualifying your contradiction.

I also know people who are religious and educated. When they were less educated they were more religious. And those people to a person are very emotional people.

That's it in a nuttshell to me. People believe because it makes them feel good. It is a crutch against an uncaring, harsh reality.

In 100% agreement. To me they are afraid to not be religious. They are afraid to say, "I'm not religious. I don't think gods are real," or something along those lines. They know there will be a price to pay. It's extremely uncomfortable for them and so they avoid the unpleasantness. Those of us who are atheist have simply gotten past the unpleasantness if that was a problem. If you're raised in a surrounding where there is no unpleasantness associated with religious affiliation it just doesn't matter. That's why I contend that if we taught children at a young age that there's nothing special about the subject religion would disappear. The society I grew up in simply wasn't mature in that regard and so the unpleasantness of making the break was there. Remove the unpleasantness and stigmas and you remove the religion. Humans are practical enough in that regard. Presently, however, it's just more practical to be religious more often than not, at least here in the U.S., and thus religiousness endures.