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Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

I waste everyone's time by running my mouth in the first place.

Isn't that kinda the point?
Tom
Haha---I suppose so. But Bilby took the time and effort to write a thoughtful response about something I didn't give a damn about in the first place.
That too is the point.

We are all here for our own entertainment; You didn't make me do it*, and if I didn't want to, I wouldn't.




*Though obviously you inspired me to do it, which is rather different.
 
I guess I'm a shade of agnostic because I'm not willing to absolutely say there's no such thing as god, life after death, etc. because it's unknown.

Other than that, I find no compelling reason to believe in a god or any version of such an entity.

At this point I believe the simulation hypothesis is better/less lame than all the god stuff. Given advances in technology and foreseeable advances, it's not totally implausible. It's a horrible program and were it possible I'd like to slap the nerd who wrote it upside his dorky little face, but alas, I'm just a bunch of 1's and 0's... or something.
The belief in something more is more reliable than the reverse.

" ... Other than that, I find no compelling reason to believe in a god or any version of such an entity."

The issue then becomes "I find no ...". We are part of a larger more complex system than us. The connectivity of everything is kind of a no brainer. The feed back loops are kind of right in front of our faces.

But in the end, I guess it tastes like chicken
 
Allright. I'll start with the easiest one. Your claim that Hinduism is equally focused on heresy as Christianity (and Islam).
I never made that claim. This is a strawman.

But yes, Hindus, in general, tend to be less focused on rigidly following, or even studying the Hindu texts than your typical Muslim or Christian. That has been my observation. But religiosity and conformation with religious traditions vary widely across the globe and even within communities in the Hindu faith, as well as amongst Muslims and Christians.

In the particion between India and Pakistan the Hindus problem with the Muslims were based on what the Muslims were doing, for historical grievances and for tribal reasons. Not because the Muslims had the wrong thoughts on theological matters and dared express them. This conflict was on a completely different level.
Hindus and Muslims killed each other, and tens of millions of people were forced to flee their homelands as refugees because of their religious identification. While there are other factors that drove the events of the partition, the primary reason was friction between the Hindu and Muslim communities across the nation, a culmination of centuries of conflicts and mistrusts between people of the two faiths starting with the first Mughal invasion. And no, the partition was not regional or tribal, it effected the northern half of the subcontinent. Both sets of my grandparents and my father lived through the partition, when they relocated from what is now Bangladesh to what is now India with little more than the clothes on their backs. I have heard first hand accounts of the events in addition to reading history books.

The Brittish colonial rulers had done their darndest to play out Muslims and Hindus against eachother. What a surprise this all blew up with the Brits handed over power to the natives. Hindus might have super strong opinions on what's religiously right or wrong, but they're not going to stab you over it.
Some will. Read up on your Indian history if we care not clear on this point.

Yes, I've read all Hindu religious texts. Many times. When growing up I even had the Bhagavad Gita as a comic book. Many. I've seen the inside of hundreds of Hindu temples, all over India and in Europe. I've been to hundreds of Pujas. Come to think of it... probably thousands. Most memorable was a Kali puja in Hampi where we were being watched by litteral actual live and wild cobras. I've had several gurus. And wasn't molested by any of them. Not even once. Together with a monk I once took care of an elephant, high up in the Welsh mountains. The elephant had been a gift to this temple from the Indian government. Over a lifetime I have spent a lot more time meditating than masturbating.
You spent all this time studying, meditating, and hanging out in ashrams, but you never learned the fundamental theological beliefs of the Hindu faith. I would say your time was largely wasted, if learning about Hinduism had been your goal.

Good luck, trying to outrank me.
This is not a competition.

Not to tell you what you think or believe, but you come across someone who grew up culturally Christian and then converted later in life. And now you're trying to fit Hinduism into a Christianity shaped box. A problem since Christianity is a smaller box than Hinduism.
Would you please fucking listen when I tell you that I was born into a Hindu family and have lived my life as a atheist Hindu? I am NOT a Christian, I have NEVER been a Christian. My observations about Hinduism are based on my reading, my travel and interactions with other Hindus, and 55 years of my life living as a Hindu, as I have told you before. How hard can it be to pay attention?

I'm not a Hindu today. But I do have the highest respect for it.
If you had respect for it, you would have made the effort to learn the foundational theology of the faith, which you clearly don't seem to know.

A word of advice - do your homework before posting. In another thread you had made the claim that a murder trial should be held in the US Supreme Court, without the faintest idea that the Supreme Court, or any higher court of appeal in the US does NOT conduct trials. And you insisted on repeating this opinion even after the facts had been pointed out to you. Set your ego aside and spend more time learning, and you will be a better person for it.
 
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Is anyone here an agnostic on the question of whether this discussion thread exists? After all, it is possible that you are just hallucinating it. So, if you are an agnostic on that question, then the issue here isn't whether you are a theist or an atheist. It is whether you enjoy engaging in the logic-chopping sophistry that goes into debates over the existence of God or gods. I can confidently claim that God does not exist on the basis of what I know about the nature of reality--that minds depend on physical brain activity in order to exist and that brains evolve naturally in animals on planet earth. It is certainly possible to imagine that there exists a disembodied unimaginably knowledgeable and intelligent mind that can create and manipulate the physical reality we live in, but there needs to be some reason to believe that beyond pure imagination. I don't need to rely just on imagination to think that this discussion thread exists. That belief is justified by experience. Belief in God is not. Hence the need for elaborate brainwashing exercises such as repetitious prayer, sacrifice, and social rituals to maintain faith in God's existence over a lifetime. That is what overrides the need for a more rational justification in the minds of believers. If you lack a good reason to maintain belief, then you need to find ways to suppress doubt.
 
I don't need to rely just on imagination to think that this discussion thread exists. That belief is justified by experience. Belief in God is not. Hence the need for elaborate brainwashing exercises such as repetitious prayer, sacrifice, and social rituals to maintain faith in God's existence over a lifetime. That is what overrides the need for a more rational justification in the minds of believers. If you lack a good reason to maintain belief, then you need to find ways to suppress doubt.
You are dancing around the term "reasonable doubt" which is in fact a good point of discussion. Agnosticism seems to require reasonable doubt about the existence of a god while simultaneously requiring reasonable doubt about the non-existence of a god. How does that work? As you indicate, agnosticism fundamentally is a position of doubt about reality itself, where gods become nothing more than cultural sidebar discussions. And I should add that those questions about reality aren't scientifically grounded, they're more just imaginative.
 
I don't need to rely just on imagination to think that this discussion thread exists. That belief is justified by experience. Belief in God is not. Hence the need for elaborate brainwashing exercises such as repetitious prayer, sacrifice, and social rituals to maintain faith in God's existence over a lifetime. That is what overrides the need for a more rational justification in the minds of believers. If you lack a good reason to maintain belief, then you need to find ways to suppress doubt.
You are dancing around the term "reasonable doubt" which is in fact a good point of discussion. Agnosticism seems to require reasonable doubt about the existence of a god while simultaneously requiring reasonable doubt about the non-existence of a god. How does that work? As you indicate, agnosticism fundamentally is a position of doubt about reality itself, where gods become nothing more than cultural sidebar discussions. And I should add that those questions about reality aren't scientifically grounded, they're more just imaginative.

And you are engaging in scientism with your last remark, but science is not the answer to every existential question. I didn't dance around the expression "reasonable doubt", because I didn't even use the term. Agnosticism, as I have said in the past, is an ambiguous term. In one sense, it suggests reasonable doubt. In another, it does not.
 
And you are engaging in scientism with your last remark, but science is not the answer to every existential question.
How exactly is it not the answer to such questions?

If a claim is not testable, then it is impervious to scientific investigation. However, it is not impervious reason or logic. There are ways of evaluating the truth of claims that have more to do with philosophical investigation rather than science. If you want to have a debate about what can be known, then you need to study epistemology, not physics. Scientism is about exaggerating the usefulness of science in all areas of investigation rather than limiting it to just those that are amenable to scientific investigation.
 
And you are engaging in scientism with your last remark, but science is not the answer to every existential question.
How exactly is it not the answer to such questions?

If a claim is not testable, then it is impervious to scientific investigation. However, it is not impervious reason or logic. There are ways of evaluating the truth of claims that have more to do with philosophical investigation rather than science. If you want to have a debate about what can be known, then you need to study epistemology, not physics. Scientism is about exaggerating the usefulness of science in all areas of investigation rather than limiting it to just those that are amenable to scientific investigation.
Please understand and accept that I am not trying to be snarky. What I am attempting to do with your responses is drill down to what I perceive to be the essential argument or claim and examine it as you and I would any claim. So please understand that I'm just having a discussion from which I hope to gain insight.

With that thought in mind could you tell me what would constitute a claim that is not "testable." Recently in the thread you used "reason" and "rational justification" to defend your position. I would use the same words to defend mine. According to wiki anyway, scientism is the opinion that science and the scientific method are the best or only way to render truth about the world and reality. I am guessing you disagree with that opinion and am curious about how you relate it to "testability." I'm also curious, is it possible that you have a negative opinion of scientism and if so could you tell me why?

Of course you don't have to respond if you don't wish. We've been together a long time here and it's been very productive and satisfying for me wrt our exchanges on many subjects. So thanks.
 
Please understand and accept that I am not trying to be snarky. What I am attempting to do with your responses is drill down to what I perceive to be the essential argument or claim and examine it as you and I would any claim. So please understand that I'm just having a discussion from which I hope to gain insight.

With that thought in mind could you tell me what would constitute a claim that is not "testable." Recently in the thread you used "reason" and "rational justification" to defend your position. I would use the same words to defend mine. According to wiki anyway, scientism is the opinion that science and the scientific method are the best or only way to render truth about the world and reality. I am guessing you disagree with that opinion and am curious about how you relate it to "testability." I'm also curious, is it possible that you have a negative opinion of scientism and if so could you tell me why?

I certainly wasn't seeing your posts as snarky, so I'm not dismissing your points out of hand. However, when it comes to arguments about the existence of God, you have to look beyond what can be empirically validated. For example, the classic example of sophistry--how many angels can dance on the head of a pin--is not subject to empirical validation. Angels can be defined as having zero mass, so, on that basis, one can take the position that the number is infinite. Whether or not angels actually exist is not the question, and there is no way to test whether or not they exist. (Logically, of course, one needs to ignore the question of how one could describe their behavior as "dancing". :) ) The same is true of the disembodied entities that people typically take gods to be. To the extent that gods and angels are defined to be undetectable, the claim that either type of being exists is indefeasible. They cannot be ruled out by any experimental means. Science per se merely assumes materialism from a methodological perspective rather than a philosophical perspective. Scientists do not have to be materialists. They just have to behave as if they were in order to do their jobs. They can still believe in miracles and do research that rules out miracles on a methodological basis. That does not entitle them to rule out logic and reason.
 
To the extent that gods and angels are defined to be undetectable, the claim that either type of being exists is indefeasible.
...and also meaningless.

A god that doesn't interact with the universe is not one we need care about, certainly not one worthy of worship, nor able to answer prayers, punish sins, or provide a basis for morality, rules for life, or a list of foods we mustn't eat.

A god that does interact with the universe is, by its actions, detectable.

If those actions obey fixed rules, then "god" is just a pointless, baggage laden, synonym for "physics".

If they don't, then we can use scientific tools to examine the god's interactions with the universe, by noting the events which don't fit our scientific models.

An undetectable god is indistinguishable from a non-existent god. (And is also nothing like any of the gods described by any of the religions in history, so would be equally an argument against subscribing to any of those religions).
 
To the extent that gods and angels are defined to be undetectable, the claim that either type of being exists is indefeasible.
...and also meaningless.

A god that doesn't interact with the universe is not one we need care about, certainly not one worthy of worship, nor able to answer prayers, punish sins, or provide a basis for morality, rules for life, or a list of foods we mustn't eat.

A god that does interact with the universe is, by its actions, detectable.

If those actions obey fixed rules, then "god" is just a pointless, baggage laden, synonym for "physics".

If they don't, then we can use scientific tools to examine the god's interactions with the universe, by noting the events which don't fit our scientific models.

An undetectable god is indistinguishable from a non-existent god. (And is also nothing like any of the gods described by any of the religions in history, so would be equally an argument against subscribing to any of those religions).

The reason why arguments like this carry little weight with most theists is that gods are fully capable of interacting with the physical universe and erasing any knowledge of their interventions in the minds of those they wish not to become aware of their existence. They can render themselves invisible and even erase videos on the internet before they become viral. Even lesser beings such as aliens and wizards can do this in works of fiction. You give people far less credit than they deserve in the imagination department.

I'm not arguing with you that such defenses of religious claptrap have merit. They don't. The problem is that people can't make sense out of a lot of their experiences and there are some truths that they would rather not think about (for example, their mortality or impending environmental disasters). So they train themselves to hold inconsistent and contradictory beliefs about the nature of reality. It is possible to believe that physical brains cause thoughts, emotions, and intentions while simultaneously believing that brains are unnecessary for thoughts, emotions, and intentions to occur. There is no scientific reason to support the conviction that the mind can exist independently of brain activity, and there is overwhelming evidence that brain activity creates mental activity. You don't even have to be a scientist to know that. Human beings have observed the effects of head injuries throughout history. Nevertheless, the belief in disembodied spirits is ubiquitous human societies.
 
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I just had to point out to a vocal evolution denying godder that they now put lightning rods on churches.
 
I just had to point out to a vocal evolution denying godder that they now put lightning rods on churches.

God isn't going to help stupid people who won't help themselves. He is more protective of those who see electricity as a gift to humanity that comes with certain responsibilities. Anyone with half a brain can see that. :thinking:
 
The reason why arguments like this carry little weight with most theists is
...unimportant. Most theists don't have a reason to disregard evidence, they just do. I'm not interested in trying to change the minds of such people, because I recognise the utter futility of that effort.

The question is what weight the argument carries with those who are undecided about their theism, and in particular with those who prop up theism, by suggesting to the undecided that there might be something worthwhile in the whole shitty pointless mess that is believing things there's no reason to believe, and good reason to disbelieve.

Well, there isn't, and we can demonstrate that there isn't. We shouldn't resile from that just because theists have thin skins and a propensity to viciousness when questioned.
 
I just had to point out to a vocal evolution denying godder that they now put lightning rods on churches.

God isn't going to help stupid people who won't help themselves. He is more protective of those who see electricity as a gift to humanity that comes with certain responsibilities. Anyone with half a brain can see that. :thinking:
Lulz! I expected that, but I think he went away. Probably praying for a snappy comeback like that.
 
The reason why arguments like this carry little weight with most theists is
...unimportant. Most theists don't have a reason to disregard evidence, they just do. I'm not interested in trying to change the minds of such people, because I recognise the utter futility of that effort.

The question is what weight the argument carries with those who are undecided about their theism, and in particular with those who prop up theism, by suggesting to the undecided that there might be something worthwhile in the whole shitty pointless mess that is believing things there's no reason to believe, and good reason to disbelieve.

Well, there isn't, and we can demonstrate that there isn't. We shouldn't resile from that just because theists have thin skins and a propensity to viciousness when questioned.

In my experience, most theists experience crises of faith and cope with them in a way that allows them to get on with their lives. I don't agree with the generalization that theists generally have thin skins and a propensity for viciousness when questioned. Just as many atheists have the same thin skins and propensity, especially when they feel their deeply held convictions are under attack.
 
The reason why arguments like this carry little weight with most theists is
...unimportant. Most theists don't have a reason to disregard evidence, they just do. I'm not interested in trying to change the minds of such people, because I recognise the utter futility of that effort.

The question is what weight the argument carries with those who are undecided about their theism, and in particular with those who prop up theism, by suggesting to the undecided that there might be something worthwhile in the whole shitty pointless mess that is believing things there's no reason to believe, and good reason to disbelieve.

Well, there isn't, and we can demonstrate that there isn't. We shouldn't resile from that just because theists have thin skins and a propensity to viciousness when questioned.

In my experience, most theists experience crises of faith and cope with them in a way that allows them to get on with their lives. I don't agree with the generalization that theists generally have thin skins and a propensity for viciousness when questioned. Just as many atheists have the same thin skins and propensity, especially when they feel their deeply held convictions are under attack.
Humans generally do. Theists aren't exceptional in this regard. Nor are atheists - but then, atheists don't usually claim to have all the answers, so they tend to be less upset when questioning reveals that they clearly don't.
 
The reason why arguments like this carry little weight with most theists is
...unimportant. Most theists don't have a reason to disregard evidence, they just do. I'm not interested in trying to change the minds of such people, because I recognise the utter futility of that effort.

The question is what weight the argument carries with those who are undecided about their theism, and in particular with those who prop up theism, by suggesting to the undecided that there might be something worthwhile in the whole shitty pointless mess that is believing things there's no reason to believe, and good reason to disbelieve.

Well, there isn't, and we can demonstrate that there isn't. We shouldn't resile from that just because theists have thin skins and a propensity to viciousness when questioned.

In my experience, most theists experience crises of faith and cope with them in a way that allows them to get on with their lives. I don't agree with the generalization that theists generally have thin skins and a propensity for viciousness when questioned. Just as many atheists have the same thin skins and propensity, especially when they feel their deeply held convictions are under attack.
Humans generally do. Theists aren't exceptional in this regard. Nor are atheists - but then, atheists don't usually claim to have all the answers, so they tend to be less upset when questioning reveals that they clearly don't.
I've yet to meet a theist who claims they have or know all the answers. You are indeed fortunate to have met at least one.
 

With that thought in mind could you tell me what would constitute a claim that is not "testable." Recently in the thread you used "reason" and "rational justification" to defend your position. I would use the same words to defend mine. According to wiki anyway, scientism is the opinion that science and the scientific method are the best or only way to render truth about the world and reality. I am guessing you disagree with that opinion and am curious about how you relate it to "testability." I'm also curious, is it possible that you have a negative opinion of scientism and if so could you tell me why?
I have often wondered whether scientism can answer or test a certain class of question.
For example science can tell me that if I hit the little old lady over the head with a cricket bat a certain way it will kill her.
But can science tell me "is it the correct/proper/right/kind to hit her on the head and kill her"?
We can always find people who will say no and others who will say yes.
Can science tell us should we kill her?

Note there is no dispute about the consequence of hitting the old lady. She will die. Science is clear on that.
 
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