Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

[DrZoidberg]

The Germanic peoples have spent 2000 years misunderstanding Judaism, and are only now coming to the intellectual/spiritual level that Judaism attained many thousands of years ago.

I agree that Christianity (and Islam) was an intellectual step backward. But it wasn't just Judaism. Ancient Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism had all figured out the same stuff. Christianity is just the odd one out. It just happened to be the Western heritage. And it's not 2000 years. It's only 1500 years. The fall of Constantiople re-introduced these ideas into western thought and gave rise to the Renaissance. A ball impossible to stop rolling and which eventually led to the Enlightenment and the scientific revolution. And come 18'th century all eastern works were being translated and eastern philosophy was assimilated into western philosophy, and today passed off as western philosophic thought. But these ideas never went away from the east.

Not that you ever said it, but I challenge the idea that the ancient Jews somehow had figured out everything we did in modern philosophy today. And we're just rediscovering it now. No, they hadn't figured it all out. The post-Enlightenment combination of eastern and western thought I think is a sum greater than it's parts.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The Germanic peoples have spent 2000 years misunderstanding Judaism, and are only now coming to the intellectual/spiritual level that Judaism attained many thousands of years ago.

Ya, but they're been wrong about so many other things over that period that it's somewhat unfair to diss them about only now becoming wrong about this other thing.

 

[No Robots]

Not that you ever said it, but I challenge the idea that the ancient Jews somehow had figured out everything we did in modern philosophy today. And we're just rediscovering it now. No, they hadn't figured it all out. The post-Enlightenment combination of eastern and western thought I think is a sum greater than it's parts.

The essentials of what we call philosophy were well understood not only by the Jews, but by all the other great civilizations as well. The Germanic peoples started to cotton on about 500 years ago. But they are still mired in superstitious materialism. Science itself would have stalled without the active work of Jews, especially Spinoza.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Not that you ever said it, but I challenge the idea that the ancient Jews somehow had figured out everything we did in modern philosophy today. And we're just rediscovering it now. No, they hadn't figured it all out. The post-Enlightenment combination of eastern and western thought I think is a sum greater than it's parts.

The essentials of what we call philosophy were well understood not only by the Jews, but by all the other great civilizations as well. The Germanic peoples started to cotton on about 500 years ago. But they are still mired in superstitious materialism. Science itself would have stalled without the active work of Jews, especially Spinoza.

Hmmm... I think you're simplifying matters a wee bit here. All people's in all ages have been mired in superstitious materialism. We still are. So were most people surrounding Spinoza. The question is whether or not Spinoza was publicly expressing something which Jews had known all the time and kept alive. Kept secret if you will. I don't buy it. I think his Jewishness as a minority in a Christian post-Cartesian country gave him more intellectual building blocks than most others. I think his work was largely creative and unique, and above all... new.

 

[No Robots]

There has always been a war within Judaism between materialists on one side and the spiritual/intellectual types on the other. This division exists within all civilizations. It was just brought to its highest pitch within Judaism. This is primarily because the spiritual/intellectual side in Judaism is relatively stronger than it is in other civilizations.

 

[DBT]

Whatever the intellectual development of Judaism may be ( or any religion), it still has no justification for its very foundation: the existence of its God.

 

[Juma]

There has always been a war within Judaism between materialists on one side and the spiritual/intellectual types on the other. This division exists within all civilizations. It was just brought to its highest pitch within Judaism. This is primarily because the spiritual/intellectual side in Judaism is relatively stronger than it is in other civilizations.

Why do you side Intellectual with spiritual? I would rather say that the intellectuals in judaism is non spiritual.

 

[angelo]

Whatever. Methinks it's unreasonable to believe in magic, because that's what one believes in by believing in a deity.

 

[Tigers!]

But you do acknowledge there is a danger about praying about it? It can give the illusion that you're doing something to help matters, when you're in fact not. There's this apt quote:

Only if you treat praying- action as "either-or". It is in fact both

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke

A well known (and ignored) quote. Funny that a theist said it.

I understand that if a person is lazy, and isn't willing to actually help others, but want to have a feeling that they've have helped, praying is great for them. If the goal is to feel good about oneself. So it's easy to see how prayers (for helping others) can be encouraged and spread by a culture. But this form of prayer is inherently destructive IMHO.

Of course that is a possibility.

I think it's important, for the good of society, to crush any ideas of that prayers can help anyone else.

Hmmm. No

Those praying for causes are in fact helping evil to spread.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

edit: Keep in mind that I'm only willing to entertain that God is pure illusion. A psychological tool we're using. I do think that theists at some point, deep down, must be aware that God doesn't exist. I mean, nobody is that fucking stupid. At least I hope they're not. And it's an illusion that is maintained because it serves a purpose.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

 

[angelo]

Are people so stupid that at some point they must doubt the existence of god? Places such as Lourdes in France are testament that they are.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Only if you treat praying- action as "either-or". It is in fact both

I'm not sure everybody understands that. In early medicine when Egyptians were for the first time writing down and systematising how their doctors treated people, they had a bunch of elaborate magical rituals to carry out. As well as stuff we today would recognise as proper medicine, stuff like setting bones. In these instructions it is mentioned that in a pinch, if they're stressed, (after a battle for instance) they can skip everything but the magical spells. That is an example of the combination of magic and practical application backfiring.

 

[No Robots]

Why do you side Intellectual with spiritual? I would rather say that the intellectuals in judaism is non spiritual.

Judaism divides mankind into three types: the hylic, the psychic and the pneumatic. The first is materialist, the second is rationalist (ie. intellectual) and the third is spiritual. It is true that the rationalists do usually side with the materialists. As the Tao te Ching expresses it:

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.​

- - - Updated - - -

Whatever the intellectual development of Judaism may be ( or any religion), it still has no justification for its very foundation: the existence of its God.

As I hope I've made clear, Judaism is in essence nothing other than spiritual atheism, ie. Jahve is not a god, but is the essence of Being itself.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The current Ebola outbreak is a great example of religious practices backfiring. Ebola is not particularly contagious. It's blood borne. It's contagiousness is comparable to Hepatitis B. The problem is West African burial practices. The bodies of the dead are highly contagious and are according to tradition handled by the family in various ways. Modern medicine hasn't quite penetrated inland. At best witch doctors operate in parallel with modern medicine. Governments are hopelessly corrupt. Any governmental initiative (for anything) will be distrusted. In times of uncertainty people cling all the more to religion and religious practices, further spreading the disease. There are countless examples from Europe regarding the church acting in ways to help spread bubonic plague.

Without religion there is no way Ebola could turn into an epidemic. It is not hard to avoid catching Ebola. In Africa it is exclusively a working class disease. The Middle classes are utterly and completely untouched by this.

 

[Shadowy Man]

In any islamic country the number of atheists is negligible.

Or at least 'professed' atheists.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

In any islamic country the number of atheists is negligible.

Or at least 'professed' atheists.

Ya, after the first few conversations like:

"Are you an atheist?"
"Yes"
*BANG*

People stop answering yes to that question so much.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I've had a few friends who have worked in Islamic countries. Being an atheist is in most of them illegal. And nothing is as offensive to people.

 

[beero1000]

As I hope I've made clear, Judaism is in essence nothing other than spiritual atheism, ie. Jahve is not a god, but is the essence of Being itself.

For something that is the essence of Being itself, he sure has a lot of rules and a penchant for smiting people.

I think you've lost yourself in the thousands of years of interpretations and apologetics, all of which are an attempt by smart people to make sense of a fairly stupid belief system conjured up by a group of violent, uneducated, and superstitious desert people. That belief system is very much theistic. It was not allegorical. They very much believed they had a covenant with an all-powerful being, groveled before him, and asked him to smite their enemies.

What that has evolved into over several thousand years is something else, but at it's heart is the same theistic belief.

 

[DBT]

Judaism divides mankind into three types: the hylic, the psychic and the pneumatic. The first is materialist, the second is rationalist (ie. intellectual) and the third is spiritual. It is true that the rationalists do usually side with the materialists. As the Tao te Ching expresses it:

Whatever the intellectual development of Judaism may be ( or any religion), it still has no justification for its very foundation: the existence of its God.

As I hope I've made clear, Judaism is in essence nothing other than spiritual atheism, ie. Jahve is not a god, but is the essence of Being itself.

Is that view supported by the OT? How do you explain the numerous and quite apparently literal references to the existence of a God of Israel, the Will of God, the works of God, etc?

 

[No Robots]

I honestly do not understand how it is that people dare to comment about the OT without having so much as looked at Spinoza's treatment of the subject.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As I hope I've made clear, Judaism is in essence nothing other than spiritual atheism, ie. Jahve is not a god, but is the essence of Being itself.

For something that is the essence of Being itself, he sure has a lot of rules and a penchant for smiting people.

I think you've lost yourself in the thousands of years of interpretations and apologetics, all of which are an attempt by smart people to make sense of a fairly stupid belief system conjured up by a group of violent, uneducated, and superstitious desert people. That belief system is very much theistic. It was not allegorical. They very much believed they had a covenant with an all-powerful being, groveled before him, and asked him to smite their enemies.

What that has evolved into over several thousand years is something else, but at it's heart is the same theistic belief.

All religions have always had interpretations for smart people and interpretations for stupid people. There is no conflict between what you are saying and what No Robots are saying. The ONLY thing all Jews have always had in common are the rituals.