Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

[Sajara]

Joedad,
I'm saying that there are plenty of reasons why less educated people tend to be religious, but that it isn't tied to just the single fact that they are less educated.

Certainly education helps in that it makes people (hopefully) learn to think on their own. That is not always the case.

As for why people feel better about believing in God? I don't think it is because they are afraid to give up on something they don't think exists, but rather they are truly comforted by the idea that there exists a purpose in life, or that someone is watching over them, or that they will see their loved ones who have passed on. It is a crutch and one they don't care to give up.

As for believing all the other hogwash that comes with their religion, usually the intellectual dissidance rears its ugly head at that point. Do they believe it? Yes/No.

 

[doubtingt]

Because to the reasonable person belief in God by itself is harmless.

There is no such thing as belief in God "by itself". All beliefs have causal impact upon other beliefs, plus upon the cognitions, decision-making, emotions, and actions that have conceptual relationships to the concept that is believed.

The actual concept of God that theists believe in holds a central place in their worldview with logical implications for what to think, feel, and do about oneself and others. There are few concepts every conceived that would be more central and impactful when truly believed in. For people who appear to be unaffected by their theism, it is almost always because they do not actually believe in God, and "I believe in God" are just a mindless utterless with little meaning to the person.

If you are suggesting that reasonable people do not let their beliefs impact their lives and actions, that is certainly wrong. It is quite irrational not to think and act based on what you believe to be true. It is arguably psychologically impossible to not act upon one's beliefs at least much of the time. Acting contrary to beliefs takes very deliberate and conscious effort. The fundamentalists who act on their theism in their daily lives and seek to root society in those beliefs are not being unreasonable for doing so. They are only unreasonable in what they believe. It is the "moderate" theist who acts no different than a non-believer that is either being unreasonable in ignoring their beliefs or (more likely), is acting on their beliefs but they are just lying to themselves and others about what they believe.

Reasonable people? We're not calculating machines, we're primates governed by Darwinian psychological mechanisms that have worked in the past for survival. Which brings ego defenses, sucking up to deities and other hierarchies, being wary of things that go "Pop!" instead of quieter and frequently greater dangers, and so on.

This explains why all people occassionally deviate from the norms of reasoned thought to pursue beliefs for the kinds of motives you mention. But it doesn't explain belief in God in particular, why most people are willing to engage in such obvious and effortful irrationality about it even when it is clearly destructive, or why it is in fact the case that "reasonable people" are less likely to believe in God. People believe in God much less today because of the impact of Enlightenment reasoning, and continue to believe in God at high levels in places less touched by the Enlightenment. People within the same culture are less likely to believe in God, the more they are years they are trained in reasoned thought in terms of formal education, and especially the more that training centers upon evidence-based reasoning (the sciences). People with greater general abilities in reasoning are less likely to believe, and people who hold more reasonable beliefs about other topics are less likely to believe.
Thus, the OP question is a reasonable one when given more context. Given that reason goes so clearly and strongly against theism, t the conceptual centrality of theism requires its every vigilant defense against reason, that more reasonable people are much more likely to reject theism, and non-theism is often a viable option socially, then what is it that leads generally reasonable people to maintain their theism while others do not? Beyond differences in social pressure from one's immediate circles, I would contend that the various psychological self-serving motives I described in my prior post are major determinants. For some people these motives are much stronger and they override any motive to be either accurate in one's beliefs or to abide by the principles of reasoning that they otherwise claim commitment to (and that on some level know they are violating by their theism). It is not much different that why a mother of a killer believes her son innocent when all the world clearly sees he is guilty. It is her strong emotional desire to believe it that others don't share which blinds her to reality. The key to understanding theism is to understand what are the features of God and what are the related strong emotional desires served by believing in it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Joedad,
I'm saying that there are plenty of reasons why less educated people tend to be religious, but that it isn't tied to just the single fact that they are less educated.

Certainly education helps in that it makes people (hopefully) learn to think on their own. That is not always the case.

As for why people feel better about believing in God? I don't think it is because they are afraid to give up on something they don't think exists, but rather they are truly comforted by the idea that there exists a purpose in life, or that someone is watching over them, or that they will see their loved ones who have passed on. It is a crutch and one they don't care to give up.

As for believing all the other hogwash that comes with their religion, usually the intellectual dissidance rears its ugly head at that point. Do they believe it? Yes/No.

To me you're describing a tension that exists in all of us to some degree and tending toward one of two extremes, those being intellect and emotion. We all live somewhere along that continuum whether we're always aware of it or not, and that position is constantly shifting and being influenced. I don't know if that's good or bad. It's just the way it is.

In my case I work and live in an environment today that doesn't matter whether you're religious or not. There is absolutely no stigma associated with being atheist, with saying, "I know gods aren't real." That's becoming more and more the norm, which is a good thing because it allows and encourages people to be better observers, not only of their surroundings but also of themselves, which is the very heart of being educated.

 

[Rhea]

I don't buy the lack of education bit.

Certainly, those who are less educated are more likely to buy into religion...but there are certainly plenty of intelligent, well-educated people who are religious. My brother is one of them. He is a Professor in Engineering. From our talks, his belief comes down to...it makes him feel good to believe in God.
.

There's an interesting correlation in well educated people of the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) variety. Religiosity seems to cluster in the engineers and be sparse among the scientists.

My husband and I often talk about this when we encounter truly intelligent highly educated yet very religious people at work. Right now, our theory is that engineering draws the kind of curiosity to "make things work" while science tends to draw those curious about "why things work."

So when encountering religion, the ones who wonder "why" are more likely, we posit, to examine whether the god(dess)(es) exist and conclude that they don't. Whereas those who engage mostly in how to make things operate reliably only need to examine the human reaction to gods, which clearly does exist and no more is really needed. Because functionally, they have found what they seek.

Even among engineers religiosity is less common that in the uneducated, but there is a very definite and strong cluster there that may get at DrZ's question.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

I don't buy the lack of education bit.

Certainly, those who are less educated are more likely to buy into religion...but there are certainly plenty of intelligent, well-educated people who are religious. My brother is one of them. He is a Professor in Engineering. From our talks, his belief comes down to...it makes him feel good to believe in God.
.

There's an interesting correlation in well educated people of the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) variety. Religiosity seems to cluster in the engineers and be sparse among the scientists.

My husband and I often talk about this when we encounter truly intelligent highly educated yet very religious people at work. Right now, our theory is that engineering draws the kind of curiosity to "make things work" while science tends to draw those curious about "why things work."

So when encountering religion, the ones who wonder "why" are more likely, we posit, to examine whether the god(dess)(es) exist and conclude that they don't. Whereas those who engage mostly in how to make things operate reliably only need to examine the human reaction to gods, which clearly does exist and no more is really needed. Because functionally, they have found what they seek.

Even among engineers religiosity is less common that in the uneducated, but there is a very definite and strong cluster there that may get at DrZ's question.

That's why there are so many Jewish Nobel Prize winners in Physics, Chemistry and Medicine. You can't lump all theists together just like you can't lump all atheists together. Also, religions differ in the way their adherents are required to accept dogma to remain part of the group.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's why there are so many Jewish Nobel Prize winners in Physics, Chemistry and Medicine. You can't lump all theists together just like you can't lump all atheists together.

But you just did.

Also, religions differ in the way their adherents are required to accept dogma to remain part of the group.

Not really. All religions require some level of obedience and logical blindness.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

My husband and I often talk about this when we encounter truly intelligent highly educated yet very religious people at work. Right now, our theory is that engineering draws the kind of curiosity to "make things work" while science tends to draw those curious about "why things work."

I have that same curiosity. One of my engineer coworkers is highly religious and gushes about whether I've been to the creation museum. My answer has consistently been, "Do you really think people and dinosaurs lived together?" And he's never answered the question. He is a quality engineer, admittedly, not a real engineer.

Both he and another coworker attended a religious college that offers geology courses. So I've asked how their geology curriculum works if they hold the earth is only a few thousand years old, how they account for strata and fossils and tectonics, etc. Again I got no answer, just equivocation. The response is typically long the lines of, "We just teach the facts."

 

[fromderinside]

My answer has consistently been, "Do you really think people and dinosaurs lived together?" And he's never answered the question. He is a quality engineer, admittedly, not a real engineer.

:devil-smiley-029::devil-smiley-029: .... "not a real engineer." Really?

I wonder how that aerospace engineer gets along using distributed supercomputer numerical algorithm airflow and temperature simulations on those wings then. No quality engineer, no reliable simulation. 'tis a fact. If you're working for Boeing I wonder how you explain how they got re-orders for C-17s after their drawing fiasco in '90 (yes it MD then, but the same people were wrong on it when they got quality awards in 98,99,01 for implementing a really good continuous process improvement program and distributed maintenance and repair. complete.

Religion comes in so many forms as do prejudices which, to me, are strongly related. See above. 'nuf sed.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Isn't aerospace engineering just chemical engineering with the hard parts taken out?

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's why there are so many Jewish Nobel Prize winners in Physics, Chemistry and Medicine. You can't lump all theists together just like you can't lump all atheists together. Also, religions differ in the way their adherents are required to accept dogma to remain part of the group.

Now you're just confusing Judaism with Christianity. They are radically different types of religion. Christianity focuses on belief. It's what you believe that makes you a Christian. Judaism focuses on ritual. It's what you do that makes you Jewish. They don't really care what you believe as long as you do your Jewish thing. Judaism is part of the Pagan tradition of god worship.

You can be a practising religious Jew and an atheist. There is zero conflict in that. Also, a non-religious Jew is still a Jew. We use the same word for both things. Which is annoying and confusing. But a persons Jewishness tells you very little about what they believe.

There is no ethnic group with such a large proportion as atheists as Jews.

Actually most religions focus more on ritual than belief. There's really only two religions who go on an on about what you actually believe. That is Christianity and Islam. It's what you believe rather than what you do that will get you into heaven.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Good thing geotechnical engineers don't do aerospace. Nothing would roll on the ground, forget about being able to fly!

 

[HaRaAYaH]

But you just did.

No I didn't I pointed out that despite what was posted previously many Jews excel in the science field and not just engineering.

Also, religions differ in the way their adherents are required to accept dogma to remain part of the group.

Not really. All religions require some level of obedience and logical blindness.

No they don't. Judaism does not have a creed. There are many Jews who are atheist. With Judaism it's all about your behavior in this world.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

That's why there are so many Jewish Nobel Prize winners in Physics, Chemistry and Medicine. You can't lump all theists together just like you can't lump all atheists together. Also, religions differ in the way their adherents are required to accept dogma to remain part of the group.

Now you're just confusing Judaism with Christianity. They are radically different types of religion. Christianity focuses on belief. It's what you believe that makes you a Christian. Judaism focuses on ritual. It's what you do that makes you Jewish. They don't really care what you believe as long as you do your Jewish thing. Judaism is part of the Pagan tradition of god worship.

You can be a practising religious Jew and an atheist. There is zero conflict in that. Also, a non-religious Jew is still a Jew. We use the same word for both things. Which is annoying and confusing. But a persons Jewishness tells you very little about what they believe.

There is no ethnic group with such a large proportion as atheists as Jews.

Actually most religions focus more on ritual than belief. There's really only two religions who go on an on about what you actually believe. That is Christianity and Islam. It's what you believe rather than what you do that will get you into heaven.

Correct, Judaism is a this word religion. While Judaism does postulate an afterlife, we have no information about it. It's up to us to do good in this world. Better one hour of repentance and good deeds in this world than all the time in the world to come says the Talmud

 

[GenesisNemesis]

There is no such thing as belief in God "by itself".

What I mean is if people believe in God without any intention to force their beliefs upon others. That is completely harmless and it is unreasonable to claim otherwise.

 

[DBT]

There is no such thing as belief in God "by itself".

What I mean is if people believe in God without any intention to force their beliefs upon others. That is completely harmless and it is unreasonable to claim otherwise.

It's harmless if it's nothing more than a belief if God. But if there's a whole lot of other baggage as a part of 'believing in God,' like giving away one's material possessions, denying family, and so on, then it becomes harmful.

 

[Dutch_labrat]

Doesn't it all depend on how well people can separate their beliefs from their science? Some are very, very good at it. It is amazing how people can compartmentalize and keep different modes of though apart.

Evangelical Christians are notoriously bad at this but many Christians are not.

It also depends on where (or if) their beliefs and daily practice clash. A believer in homeopathy could still be a great aeronautical engineer* and I don't care if my doctor prays to the gravity fairy.

And this is why more moderate religious beliefs with its vagueness and undefined gods how irrational it may be does not need to clash with a rational scientific mode of thinking. You can call that irrational, Lieutenant Commander Data certainly would, but it is not abnormal human behavior.

(*Just don't let them design the fuel mixture system. Homeopathic plane fuel would be hyper-diluted mercury)

 

[Tigers!]

Similarities in fact to another recent thread talking about rape IIRC. The first thing I must do is not be abusive myself.

You are a rapist? Or a child abuser?
If that is true, then we should talk about avenues to get you help. Especially with child abuse; intervention, education and support can go a long long way in freeing you of that behavior. I'm serious in this. If you are worried that your actions may be causing harm to children, there ARE resources you can seek to help educate and rehabilitate yourself to learn new reactions that can change everything.

I am neither. There is no need to fear otherwise.
Rhea
You were on a previous thread that was talking about what could a male do to prevent rape. Ee agreed that the first thing a male could do was to keep his genitals to himself. Then work outwards to others. Same applies to child abuse.

 

[Tigers!]

Not being abusive yourself doesn't seem like a huge effort.

But it is a necessary 1st step.

For the rest, can't God do at least some of the work? Surely He knows your limits, and steps in where more is needed, right?

So child abuse simply cannot occur. Not with God helping you out. Surely?

We are getting close to the free will discussion.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You are a rapist? Or a child abuser?
If that is true, then we should talk about avenues to get you help. Especially with child abuse; intervention, education and support can go a long long way in freeing you of that behavior. I'm serious in this. If you are worried that your actions may be causing harm to children, there ARE resources you can seek to help educate and rehabilitate yourself to learn new reactions that can change everything.

I am neither. There is no need to fear otherwise.
Rhea
You were on a previous thread that was talking about what could a male do to prevent rape. Ee agreed that the first thing a male could do was to keep his genitals to himself. Then work outwards to others. Same applies to child abuse.

But you do acknowledge there is a danger about praying about it? It can give the illusion that you're doing something to help matters, when you're in fact not. There's this apt quote:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke

I understand that if a person is lazy, and isn't willing to actually help others, but want to have a feeling that they've have helped, praying is great for them. If the goal is to feel good about oneself. So it's easy to see how prayers (for helping others) can be encouraged and spread by a culture. But this form of prayer is inherently destructive IMHO. I think it's important, for the good of society, to crush any ideas of that prayers can help anyone else.

Those praying for causes are in fact helping evil to spread.

edit: Keep in mind that I'm only willing to entertain that God is pure illusion. A psychological tool we're using. I do think that theists at some point, deep down, must be aware that God doesn't exist. I mean, nobody is that fucking stupid. At least I hope they're not. And it's an illusion that is maintained because it serves a purpose.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No I didn't I pointed out that despite what was posted previously many Jews excel in the science field and not just engineering.

Also, religions differ in the way their adherents are required to accept dogma to remain part of the group.

Not really. All religions require some level of obedience and logical blindness.

No they don't. Judaism does not have a creed. There are many Jews who are atheist.

If they are atheists, they aren't theists.