Why would we *NOT* replace government fleets with electrics?

[Toni]

I am learning a lot in this thread—very exciting!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

ETA ~This is already how other countries handle transportation. In Japan, highways have a toll of about $.10/ mile. Gas costs around $10/gallon. People are free to drive personal vehicles all they want. But for distance driving, they have the option of cheap and convenient public transportation, like light rail. Most people choose that option.~

Japan is a much more compact country though. That approach would not work well for a spread-out country like ours.

There are two factors at work: There is both good mass transit and good inter-city transit. Not only is it cheaper to get there by train but you don't need a car once you do get there. Both of these are due to the high population density.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So even personally knowing and living all of those barriers, I STILL advocate for more EVs, far more than 20% of the fleet.

Of course you do. For despite all evidence to the contrary, your beliefs are religious in nature and you will continue to believe.

It’s the riight thing for the planet and it’s the right thing for the economy.

The right thing for the economy and the planet would be to do away with the USPS. It’s a terrible service subsidized by the tax payer delivering shite that I did not ask for.

And replace it with what?! There is nothing comparable. It has competition in the urban/suburban package delivery business, that's it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And there should be a solar panel on the top of every postal delivery vehicle!

Bad idea--that means hauling the panel around and a panel on the roof does very little. About the only use is maintaining the battery in a parked car and why is it sitting around enough to need that?

 

[Hermit]

In view of the facts that about 82 percent of the population of the United States lived within the boundaries of an urbanized area as of December, 2010, and that these areas occupy about 2 percent of the land area of the United States, USPS should be able to convert the vast majority of its last mile fleet from fossil fuel to electric power already without impairing the quality of its service.

This probably applies even more so to FedEx, UPS and Amazon, especially since they palm off deliveries in non-profitable areas to USPS.

 

[ZiprHead]

I wonder how much the actual availability of EV trucks suitable for mail transport plays into this. It's still a very young industry.

 

[Derec]

EV technology has come a long way since Obama was president.

2016 wasn't that long ago. Tesla models S and X had existed during Obama's presidency for example. But instead of doing anything constructive, one of Obama's last actions in office was to yank, for purely political purposes, the permit for a pipeline (DAPL) that was >90% completed already. The alternative way to move 500kbbl/d from Bakken would be oil trains, which are less safe, more expensive and use more energy (and thus have a larger carbon footprint). But I digress ...

And why no mention of Trump who was literally hostile to anything non fossil fuels? I believe your bias is showing.

It's not my bias. I did not mention Trump because of what you just wrote. He was "hostile to anything non fossil fuels". So there is no expectation for him to do something like that. Obama, on the other hand, talked a good game on climate.
Also, I voted for Obama twice. I never voted for Trump. So much for any biases.

 

[Derec]

Bad idea--that means hauling the panel around and a panel on the roof does very little.

With solar cells integrated into the roof (as opposed to off the shelf panels just tacked on) the weight penalty would be rather small.

About the only use is maintaining the battery in a parked car and why is it sitting around enough to need that?

Well, there is the lunch break.

Seriously though, the truck would stand idle for all the breaks during a shift. Furthermore, it would be exposed to the sun for the entire shift, while not covering that many miles because stopping at every mailbox means the average speed is quite low.
Depending on an part of country and time of year, you could get maybe a dozen or two of "free" miles per day that way. Worth it? Depends on the weight penalty and the cost of the system vs. cost of electricity. But I can see it as an option ordered by districts in sunnier parts of the country.

 

[Derec]

In view of the facts that about 82 percent of the population of the United States lived within the boundaries of an urbanized area as of December, 2010, and that these areas occupy about 2 percent of the land area of the United States, USPS should be able to convert the vast majority of its last mile fleet from fossil fuel to electric power already without impairing the quality of its service.

Right. Do urban areas first, suburban next, exurban after that, and by the time it's rural areas' turn it will be a decade later and technology will be better. Especially since it has already been tested in USPS usage for many vehicle-miles by then.

Same applies for taxis. No reason why taxis in NYC for example should not be electric.

 

[Derec]

Obviously, mail carrier vehicles would charge at charging stations at whatever facility they park. 182 miles is the longest route I saw mentioned but: given the decreased battery life in cold weather and the absolute truth that vehicles use much more energy if they travel over snow covered roads--as indeed would definitely happen during winters in the northern parts of the US--including falling snow, blizzard conditions, icy conditions, high winds, etc. I don't live in ND but I do live in a northern state and in my last job, I drove 100 miles round trip every day through all of this every winter and it was not great for mileage on my efficient gas powered car.

Obviously those challenging routes should be last to be electrified. There is no reason to delay electrifying mail trucks in urban and suburban areas.

I am not at all confident that current battery technology is sufficient for practical use in rural areas in cold parts of the US

Jason Fenske of Engineering Explained did a road trip in his Tesla during the wintertime. In the North.
Not the same thing as delivering mail admittedly - for example he drove up to 80 mph - but it shows that extant battery tech can deal with wintry weather.

Even the ancient 2018 model.

All y'all southerners would die at the idea of driving in these here parts come wintertime.

Are you kidding? We shut the whole city down whenever there is snow on the ground.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I did not know that. I always thought the urbanites were the most efficient.

They are.

Far more efficient to live in a dense urban place, with apartments and public transportation and walkable lives.

Tom

Note that walking actually isn't exactly carbon-friendly unless you were going to exercise in some fashion anyway. Food uses far more carbon for the energy produced than stuff like gasoline.

Cite?
Or are you pulling stuff out of your ass again?
Also, people who don't walk still eat all the same stuff (often more), so you might only look atthe differential.

 

[Jarhyn]

100% replacement would indeed create unworkable gaps.
But - given the nature of replacing the fleet - that it would never be all at once - I think we would avoid any serious issues by starting with replacing the oldest vehicles with all electric and expecting some protion of the fleet - like 10-20% to probably last another 10 years. During that time, good analysis of need could be done.

This^^^^
Especially the phase in over time part.

Nobody is advocating dumping the entire current fleet and replacing them tomorrow. But shooting high starting now. Say, 80% of new vehicle purchases, over the next 3 years, will have electric capabilities. All electric for the purposes that EVs can do. Hybrids for the purposes EVs aren't able at this time. Shift the remaining gas trucks around to uses where they are needed for some reason.

Take advantage of improvement to the technology. Rearrange routes to make them fit the vehicles, instead of buying inefficient vehicles to fit existing routes, expectations, and such.

Dare I suggest, losing a bunch of delivering? Frankly, near all of the dead tree stuff that shows up in my mailbox(6 days a week) is junk I throw away on my back to the house. The stuff I want is never particularly time sensitive. USPS could cut back from 6 deliveries a week to 2 and I'd be fine with it. And I'm the technophobic one. I realize that not everyone feels that way. But I do.
Tom

Or, reduce delivery of "nonspecific recipients" to a single day per week, or only alongside "prompt post".

And report all nonsolicited offers as nonsolicited and fine anyone sending it, on the basis of the mass mailing marks registered on the mail.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I did not know that. I always thought the urbanites were the most efficient.

They are.

Far more efficient to live in a dense urban place, with apartments and public transportation and walkable lives.

Tom

Note that walking actually isn't exactly carbon-friendly unless you were going to exercise in some fashion anyway. Food uses far more carbon for the energy produced than stuff like gasoline.

Cite?
Or are you pulling stuff out of your ass again?
Also, people who don't walk still eat all the same stuff (often more), so you might only look atthe differential.

In his defense, most Americans don't need to lose weight.

 

[Tigers!]

In view of the facts that about 82 percent of the population of the United States lived within the boundaries of an urbanized area as of December, 2010, and that these areas occupy about 2 percent of the land area of the United States, USPS should be able to convert the vast majority of its last mile fleet from fossil fuel to electric power already without impairing the quality of its service.

This probably applies even more so to FedEx, UPS and Amazon, especially since they palm off deliveries in non-profitable areas to USPS.

Australia Post is beginning such an upgrade of its postie fleet. For urban areas it makes sense. Semi-rural and rural will require a vehicle with greater range.

 

[Hermit]

In view of the facts that about 82 percent of the population of the United States lived within the boundaries of an urbanized area as of December, 2010, and that these areas occupy about 2 percent of the land area of the United States, USPS should be able to convert the vast majority of its last mile fleet from fossil fuel to electric power already without impairing the quality of its service.

This probably applies even more so to FedEx, UPS and Amazon, especially since they palm off deliveries in non-profitable areas to USPS.

Australia Post is beginning such an upgrade of its postie fleet.

You don't say!

 

[bilby]

In view of the facts that about 82 percent of the population of the United States lived within the boundaries of an urbanized area as of December, 2010, and that these areas occupy about 2 percent of the land area of the United States, USPS should be able to convert the vast majority of its last mile fleet from fossil fuel to electric power already without impairing the quality of its service.

This probably applies even more so to FedEx, UPS and Amazon, especially since they palm off deliveries in non-profitable areas to USPS.

Australia Post is beginning such an upgrade of its postie fleet.

You don't say!

There’s also an upgrade going on here in Australia, with the old postie bikes being replaced by electric tricycles.

So that’s three countries that are already on the case…

 

[Hermit]

In view of the facts that about 82 percent of the population of the United States lived within the boundaries of an urbanized area as of December, 2010, and that these areas occupy about 2 percent of the land area of the United States, USPS should be able to convert the vast majority of its last mile fleet from fossil fuel to electric power already without impairing the quality of its service.

This probably applies even more so to FedEx, UPS and Amazon, especially since they palm off deliveries in non-profitable areas to USPS.

Australia Post is beginning such an upgrade of its postie fleet.

You don't say!

There’s also an upgrade going on here in Australia, with the old postie bikes being replaced by electric tricycles.

So that’s three countries that are already on the case…

Don't forget Australia, mate. Australia Post has begun replacing its petrol powered bikes with electricity powered trikes in 2019. There'll be no postie bikes left by 2025.

So that’s four countries that are already on the case…

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Bad idea--that means hauling the panel around and a panel on the roof does very little.

With solar cells integrated into the roof (as opposed to off the shelf panels just tacked on) the weight penalty would be rather small.

About the only use is maintaining the battery in a parked car and why is it sitting around enough to need that?

Well, there is the lunch break.

Seriously though, the truck would stand idle for all the breaks during a shift. Furthermore, it would be exposed to the sun for the entire shift, while not covering that many miles because stopping at every mailbox means the average speed is quite low.
Depending on an part of country and time of year, you could get maybe a dozen or two of "free" miles per day that way. Worth it? Depends on the weight penalty and the cost of the system vs. cost of electricity. But I can see it as an option ordered by districts in sunnier parts of the country.

I already knew the answer was going to be low but when I went looking for numbers to figure it out I see someone has already done the calculations:

Solar Vehicle Roof Analysis – TeslaTap

teslatap.com

Oops, sunny city you're looking at about 2.5 miles/day, not so sunny it drops to 1.8 miles/day.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Cite?
Or are you pulling stuff out of your ass again?
Also, people who don't walk still eat all the same stuff (often more), so you might only look atthe differential.

Huh? Walking most certainly consumes calories. It's not exactly unusual for my Fitbit to estimate an additional 2,000 calories on a day I take a long hike. I do have to account for that in what I eat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Or, reduce delivery of "nonspecific recipients" to a single day per week, or only alongside "prompt post".

And report all nonsolicited offers as nonsolicited and fine anyone sending it, on the basis of the mass mailing marks registered on the mail.

Nonspecific recipients around here mostly means the weekly grocery ads. There's some junk mixed in but we consider that useful.