Why YEC can seem plausible

[James Brown]

See also post #426. I went from being a YEC to an atheist.

I'm glad to hear it. So what's your purpose for this thread? You keep coming up with 'explanations' for problems with YEC that I presume you don't find remotely plausible.

I'm not sure that's how "playing devil's advocate" works.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Good points.... I assume there is no way for just the ocean floor fossils to just remain without the fish....? Or maybe the fish swam away during the relatively slow burial? (if that makes sense)

Relatively slow burial? Burial in what?

YECs might say sediment - sediment that the fish could swim through rather than being buried alive....

Buried in sediment? What sediment?

This is why YEC is such a failure. All it does is try to address the immediate question, like above. Sediment.

I'd like to visit a geologic site that is a deposit of these sediments.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

YECs might say sediment - sediment that the fish could swim through rather than being buried alive....

STILL doesn't explain why the plants all escaped when the fish did...

Well there are some things that YECs have no counter-argument for but my attempt would be that the plants might not have had hard parts that could be preserved....

Except in an actual flood event, plants can get covered up and fossilized.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Well there are some things that YECs have no counter-argument for but my attempt would be that the plants might not have had hard parts that could be preserved....

Except in an actual flood event, plants can get covered up and fossilized.

It's an actual magical flood where anything I feel can happen can actually happen.

 

[Keith&Co.]

All it does is try to address the immediate question, like above.

And in isolation.
For one problem, the solution is rapid deposits of sediment, instant death and quick burial.
For a different question, the answer is slow deposits, so the fish can swim away. Contradictions between the two answers are not a problem because all horses are the same color.

I learned this test technique a million years ago, in tenth grade.

For the hypothesis that all horses are the same color, you create three groups. The untested group, which currently has all the horses in the world; the tested group, which is currently empty; and the testING group, which is empty as we haven't started.

You move the first horse into the testing group. For example, a white horse. Ask, "Are all the horses under test the same color?" The answer is yes. Only one horse is under consideration right now, it's an easy answer.

That horse, having been tested, is moved to the testED group.
A new horse is added to the testing group. Say, a black one.
Are all horses in the testing group the same color? Well, yes. Only one horse is under consideration right now, it's an easy answer.
The black horse is tested, now, and moved to the appropriate group.
So far, two horses have been tested, and the test result shows that they're all the same color.

A third horse, maybe chestnut, is moved to the testing group. Conduct the test, sort the results.

Eventually, all horses will be moved to the testing group, prove to be the same color, and move to the tested group.

This is the exact technique creationists use to solve any quibbles with their theory. "I (or someone) has already proven that this is not an issue." Somewhere. Somehow. That one fact, fixed in isolation from any other problem...

 

[Bronzeage]

Is there anyone in this discussion who actually believes in Young Earth Creation, or some variation of the Genesis story, or are we all projecting what we think a YEC proponent believes?

 

[James Brown]

Learner and LionIRC were defending YEC and/or Noah's Deluge as true believers for a time, but they've been silent for a while.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Is there anyone in this discussion who actually believes in Young Earth Creation, or some variation of the Genesis story, or are we all projecting what we think a YEC proponent believes?

Aren't we all Veterans of the Atheist v YEC'er wars between 2000-2006? I think at times, atheists are more knowledgeable about YEC beliefs than YEC'ers.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Is there anyone in this discussion who actually believes in Young Earth Creation, or some variation of the Genesis story, or are we all projecting what we think a YEC proponent believes?

Aren't we all Veterans of the Atheist v YEC'er wars between 2000-2006? I think at times, atheists are more knowledgeable about YEC beliefs than YEC'ers.

We certainly paid more attention.

 

[excreationist]

See also post #426. I went from being a YEC to an atheist.

I'm glad to hear it. So what's your purpose for this thread? You keep coming up with 'explanations' for problems with YEC that I presume you don't find remotely plausible.

I'm not sure that's how "playing devil's advocate" works.

Actually I find some of their teachings to seem plausible in isolation... and sometimes they involve teaching some scientific concepts or at least are loosely based on science...

e.g.
How Adam and Eve could lead to different races:
https://answersingenesis.org/tower-of-babel/how-many-races-did-god-create/

I learnt about the problem with accumulating mutations from YEC. They explain why incest was originally not a problem but now it is.... (I think it makes sense to believe that the creation originally had no mutations)

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2009.864

There are counter-arguments to these things of course.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Just for the sake of discussion, knowing that we don't have mutation free magic parents, is it biologically possible for a female clone to arise from a male host? In the book of young Earth Magic anything happens, I know, but is it biologically possible in reality?

 

[excreationist]

Just for the sake of discussion, knowing that we don't have mutation free magic parents,

If God was going to create a human from scratch why must he include problematic mutations? Also if there were mutations for the start then incest would also be a problem from the start... but the YEC explanation explains why incest wasn't originally a problem and became a problem when it was outlawed in the laws given to Moses....

is it biologically possible for a female clone to arise from a male host? In the book of young Earth Magic anything happens, I know, but is it biologically possible in reality?

I originally thought the YEC belief was that the XX female was created from an XY male, but here is an article from AiG saying that Eve wasn't a clone:
https://answersingenesis.org/adam-and-eve/shouldnt-eve-have-been-a-clone-of-adam/

 

[DrZoidberg]

See also post #426. I went from being a YEC to an atheist.

I'm glad to hear it. So what's your purpose for this thread? You keep coming up with 'explanations' for problems with YEC that I presume you don't find remotely plausible.

I'm not sure that's how "playing devil's advocate" works.

Actually I find some of their teachings to seem plausible in isolation... and sometimes they involve teaching some scientific concepts or at least are loosely based on science...

e.g.
How Adam and Eve could lead to different races:
https://answersingenesis.org/tower-of-babel/how-many-races-did-god-create/

I learnt about the problem with accumulating mutations from YEC. They explain why incest was originally not a problem but now it is.... (I think it makes sense to believe that the creation originally had no mutations)

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2009.864

There are counter-arguments to these things of course.

Who do you think Cain married and had kids with (Enoch)?

BTW, Enoch founded a city. Who did he marry? A person living alone in a hut does not a city make. How many people do you need in order to call it a city?

 

[bilby]

Actually I find some of their teachings to seem plausible in isolation... and sometimes they involve teaching some scientific concepts or at least are loosely based on science...

e.g.
How Adam and Eve could lead to different races:
https://answersingenesis.org/tower-of-babel/how-many-races-did-god-create/

I learnt about the problem with accumulating mutations from YEC. They explain why incest was originally not a problem but now it is.... (I think it makes sense to believe that the creation originally had no mutations)

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2009.864

There are counter-arguments to these things of course.

Who do you think Cain married and had kids with (Enoch)?

BTW, Enoch founded a city. Who did he marry? A person living alone in a hut does not a city make. How many people do you need in order to call it a city?

Just one.

But he has to be a bishop.

A city is the location of a cathedral. A cathedral is a church which contains a bishop's throne.

The smallest city in the UK today is St Davids, in Pembrokeshire, Wales. It has a population of about 1,600 people. Which makes it almost twice the population of the world's smallest city, which is Vatican City, population 825.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If God was going to create a human from scratch why must he include problematic mutations?

This IS the God who flooded the entire world because humans were created inherently wicked, right?
Who created a reproductive system that generates about 40 mutations per baby?
Why assume perfection?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Just for the sake of discussion, knowing that we don't have mutation free magic parents,

If God was going to create a human from scratch why must he include problematic mutations?

This is what is known as fan fiction resolution. The reality doesn't fit the narrative, where specific punishments are applied to man, woman, and the serpent for the fruit eating incident. This did not include genetic issues caused by entropy. As a reminder, the principle of increasing entropy is a major characteristic of the universe.

So the people that want to believe this is a literal story need to impart a lot of say-so truths that aren't mentioned in the story because it wasn't part of the story. Such as God's magic entropy off switch for genetic mutations (in just humans?), to resolve the inherent problems of YEC and theistic assumptions.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Actually I find some of their teachings to seem plausible in isolation... and sometimes they involve teaching some scientific concepts or at least are loosely based on science...

e.g.
How Adam and Eve could lead to different races:
https://answersingenesis.org/tower-of-babel/how-many-races-did-god-create/

I learnt about the problem with accumulating mutations from YEC. They explain why incest was originally not a problem but now it is.... (I think it makes sense to believe that the creation originally had no mutations)

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2009.864

There are counter-arguments to these things of course.

Who do you think Cain married and had kids with (Enoch)?

BTW, Enoch founded a city. Who did he marry? A person living alone in a hut does not a city make. How many people do you need in order to call it a city?

Just one.

But he has to be a bishop.

A city is the location of a cathedral. A cathedral is a church which contains a bishop's throne.

The smallest city in the UK today is St Davids, in Pembrokeshire, Wales. It has a population of about 1,600 people. Which makes it almost twice the population of the world's smallest city, which is Vatican City, population 825.

Another funny detail from Biblical exageration, the temple of Solomon was nothing but the most basic mud brick hut (the most impressive building we've found archeological evidence for dating to 950 BC) in Caanan. When the great walls of the glorious city of Jericho fell about 1600 BC Jericho didn't have any walls. It was just a tiny village. The expansion of David in the 1000 BC is described as very dramatic in the Bible. The truth is that these expansions were initially into abandoned settlements, that had been abandoned following the bronze age collapse. Since the Jews at this point were sheep herders high up in the remote mountains they were less impacted by the bronze age collapse. And could therefore take advantage of the tremendous mess in the previous centuries. It's easy to win wars if there's no opposition.

They use the terms kingdom, empire, city, war etc very loosely in the Bible.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Actually I find some of their teachings to seem plausible in isolation... and sometimes they involve teaching some scientific concepts or at least are loosely based on science...

e.g.
How Adam and Eve could lead to different races:
https://answersingenesis.org/tower-of-babel/how-many-races-did-god-create/

There are counter-arguments to these things of course.

Didn't the Leakeys show that Lucy's clan could have given rise to the southern Mediterranean homo sapiens in one generation, with the ingestion of the soy chai latte? If I remember my college biol. 101, the soy chai with extra foam gave rise to the Germanic tribes, and with extra foam and whipped cream, to the Scandinavians.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

See also post #426. I went from being a YEC to an atheist.

I'm glad to hear it. So what's your purpose for this thread? You keep coming up with 'explanations' for problems with YEC that I presume you don't find remotely plausible.

I'm not sure that's how "playing devil's advocate" works.

Actually I find some of their teachings to seem plausible in isolation... and sometimes they involve teaching some scientific concepts or at least are loosely based on science...

What does that even mean?

Yeah... this crap sandwich is pretty good if I don't think about the taste.

 

[excreationist]

....Who do you think Cain married and had kids with (Enoch)?

A YEC explanation:
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/cain/who-was-cains-wife/

BTW, Enoch founded a city. Who did he marry? A person living alone in a hut does not a city make. How many people do you need in order to call it a city?

See the previous link....

Though some YECs believe there were other people around when Adam and Eve were created - maybe "Nephilim".