Why you should vote for Trump

[pood]

HRC didn't run a great campaign no doubt. She won the vote. Lost the election due to the EC.

She knew the EC was there. It didn’t cause her loss. Her hubris and that of the mainstream Dem Party caused it.
Her misplaced characterizations caused her loss. Instead of calling tens of millions of deplorable people deplorable, she should have gone for the throat and called Trump what he was - a well known racist mobster rapist …
But no, that would have been too unseemly - she wouldn’t even call him out for gooning over her on the debate stage, or press the “no puppet” matter that was panicking Trump. She was so sure she didn’t need any deplorable votes… no need to go so low as to tell the ugly truth.
Hillary caused Hillary to lose.

I agree she did not run a good campaign. But still, there is something pathological, monstrous, and deeply scary about a nation that would elect an evil goon like Donald Trump president over her.

 

[Politesse]

It’s about so-called “progressive” voters who flirt with third-party candidates having enough goddamn common sense to notice what is really at stake. You didn’t like Hillary, you either didn’t vote or voted for a third-party candidate who had no chance of winning. Great. Now you don’t have abortion rights anymore. How’d that work out for you?

An illogical blame game. Progressive voters were not the reason our country elected Donald J. Trump. They just weren't. Even if all 8 million third party voters had voted for a mainline candidate, unless you are supposing that every Gary Johnson voter is a "progressive" voter who had Hillary as their second choice, forcing every voter into two camps would only have advantaged Trump. Yes, there were an unusually large number of third party votes, reflective of an atmosphere of voter enthusiasm and engagement noticeably similar to that which we now face, but almost none of them were for progressive candidates. The only progressive even running for the office was Gloria de la Riva, who went home with 74,000 votes, less than half a percent. She got less votes than Bernie, and he wasn't even running.

It’s not just about third-party votes. It’s about people who stayed home and didn’t vote at all, because Hillary didn’t measure up to their concept of the “perfect” candidate, or because they thought she would win and didn’t need to get off their lazy asses and cast a vote for her, or because they were fundamentally sexist, or because they just didn’t give a shit about who won. After Trump’s demented reign that cost untold numbers of lives in the Covid pandemic and took away abortion rights, maybe they’ll give a shit now. But I’m not betting on it, when I hear caterwauling about “Genocide Joe.”

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known? People who may or may not have been likely voters if things were different, and who may or may not have chosen to vote for Hillary as opposed to Trump if they had indeed voted, despite the clear and substantial advantage we see for right-leaning candidates among the undecided voters who did vote? You know that the vast majority of third party voters who did vote went for Trump lite, but assume that if every registered voter had voted, a majority of the undecided or disgruntled voters who lived in swing states but didn't vote would have voted for Hillary if they had?

 

[pood]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Of course they can be known and largely are known. There are, for example, the “Bernie Bros” who were saying months before the election — I well remember reading this analysis in the NY Times — that if Bernie couldn’t get the nomination, their second choice was Donald Trump. And sure enough, a bunch of them voted for Trump in November. There is a lot of info about people who didn’t vote as well, and why they didn’t vote. There’s nothing mysterious about it.

 

[Elixir]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Well yeah. At the end of the day, we take whatever information and misinformation we’ve got, and go with our gut.
I assume you haven’t made a decision yet for pretty much that reason. Or is there something specific you hope to accomplish with your vote, and you are tactically delaying your decision in the hope of making it more effective?

 

[Politesse]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Well yeah. At the end of the day, we take whatever information and misinformation we’ve got, and go with our gut.
I assume you haven’t made a decision yet for pretty much that reason. Or is there something specific you hope to accomplish with your vote, and you are tactically delaying your decision in the hope of making it more effective?

There are several months to go. I don't like making a decision that important based on hypotheticals.

I don't expect my vote to be "effective" at doing anything in particular. Either I back my state on the Biden thing, or I don't, it does not change the outcome. But it matters to me.

 

[pood]

Why people didn’t vote for president in 2016 — Pew Research Center.

 

[Elixir]

There are several months to go. I don't like making a decision that important based on hypotheticals

Fair enough. I have made a decision based on the hypothesis that the two major Party nominees will be Biden and Trump.
If that turns out not to be the case ... I'll still vote for the democrat whoever it is, because the Republican Party belongs to Putin and I am also a subscriber to the hypothesis that that isn't going to change between now and November. That doesn't mean that if that all changes, and I get somehow convinced that Trump is right, Dems are a threat to democracy and Putin is fighting Nazis, I won't change my mind ...

 

[Politesse]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Of course they can be known and largely are known. There are, for example, the “Bernie Bros” who were saying months before the election — I well remember reading this analysis in the NY Times — that if Bernie couldn’t get the nomination, their second choice was Donald Trump. And sure enough, a bunch of them voted for Trump in November. There is a lot of info about people who didn’t vote as well, and why they didn’t vote. There’s nothing mysterious about it.

And yet, the data that does exist does not in any way support your claims. Around 1 in 10 of the folks who voted for Bernie in the primary turned around and voted for Trump in the general, and they were over-whelmingly white male Republicans. Likely Trump voters, in short. There was never any possiblity that they were all going to vote for Hillary if Bernie hadn't been there, yet that's what would have had to be true for that tiny sliver of the voting public to have won every swing state that Hillary lost.

Want to try another Dartboard Demographic? There are plenty to choose from. Have you tried Native Americans yet? Those disloyal scoundrels! Or drag queens. You know how many of them voted for Trump? Probably not 0, the fools!

 

[pood]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Of course they can be known and largely are known. There are, for example, the “Bernie Bros” who were saying months before the election — I well remember reading this analysis in the NY Times — that if Bernie couldn’t get the nomination, their second choice was Donald Trump. And sure enough, a bunch of them voted for Trump in November. There is a lot of info about people who didn’t vote as well, and why they didn’t vote. There’s nothing mysterious about it.

And yet, the data that does exist does not in any way support your claims. Around 1 in 10 of the folks who voted for Bernie in the primary turned around and voted for Trump in the general, and they were over-whelmingly white male Republicans. Likely Trump voters, in short. There was never any possiblity that they were all going to vote for Hillary if Bernie hadn't been there, yet that's what would have had to be true for that tiny sliver of the voting public to have won every swing state that Hillary lost.

Want to try another Dartboard Demographic? There are plenty to choose from. Have you tried Native Americans yet? Those disloyal scoundrels! Or drag queens. You know how many of them voted for Trump? Probably not 0, the fools!

12 percent of Bernie supporters in the Democratic primaries voted for Trump in the general, and you don’t think that made a difference?

As to the rest, please stop with the tendentious drivel about “disloyal scoundrels” and drag queens. None of that has anythig to do with what I’m saying. It’s just your cutesy way of poisoning the well, which you do for reasons known only to you.

 

[Politesse]

Why people didn’t vote for president in 2016 — Pew Research Center.

So you link to some data that does not support what you are claiming, and then offer no other commentary than the link itself? I'll take that as conceding the point. According to that survey, fully 75% of registered voters who did not vote cited structural or personal reasons, not ideological reasons. Of those who did have ideological reservations, the survey did not disaggregate between those who would have been likely to vote for Trump, as opposed to Hillary.

 

[Politesse]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Of course they can be known and largely are known. There are, for example, the “Bernie Bros” who were saying months before the election — I well remember reading this analysis in the NY Times — that if Bernie couldn’t get the nomination, their second choice was Donald Trump. And sure enough, a bunch of them voted for Trump in November. There is a lot of info about people who didn’t vote as well, and why they didn’t vote. There’s nothing mysterious about it.

And yet, the data that does exist does not in any way support your claims. Around 1 in 10 of the folks who voted for Bernie in the primary turned around and voted for Trump in the general, and they were over-whelmingly white male Republicans. Likely Trump voters, in short. There was never any possiblity that they were all going to vote for Hillary if Bernie hadn't been there, yet that's what would have had to be true for that tiny sliver of the voting public to have won every swing state that Hillary lost.

Want to try another Dartboard Demographic? There are plenty to choose from. Have you tried Native Americans yet? Those disloyal scoundrels! Or drag queens. You know how many of them voted for Trump? Probably not 0, the fools!

12 percent of Bernie supporters in the Democratic primaries voted for Trump in the general, and you don’t think that made a difference?

No, I don't. There's no evidence that any of them ever intended to vote nor ever would have voted for Clinton, let alone all of them, which is what it would have taken for this to be a significant factor in any of those states. The reason Sanders was such a threat to Clinton in the first place was that so many people were willing to cross party lines to vote for him. But being willing to vote against party for a single charismatic individual who is good at reaching across the aisle does not mean you are a habitual Democratic voter who is just as likely to vote for Clinton as Sanders. You know how I know, more than any other reason? Because they didn't vote for Clinton.

 

[Elixir]

There's no evidence that any of them ever intended to voter nor ever would have voted for Hillary, let alone all of them.

I caucused for Bernie. At the caucus meeting, all the Bernie voters seemed to agree that "anything but Trump" was the working mantra.

 

[Politesse]

There's no evidence that any of them ever intended to voter nor ever would have voted for Hillary, let alone all of them.

I caucused for Bernie. At the caucus meeting, all the Bernie voters seemed to agree that "anything but Trump" was the working mantra.

I find that very plausible, considering that 87% of Bernie's primary voters went for Clinton in the general.

 

[TomC]

There's no evidence that any of them ever intended to voter nor ever would have voted for Hillary, let alone all of them.

I caucused for Bernie. At the caucus meeting, all the Bernie voters seemed to agree that "anything but Trump" was the working mantra.

Clearly not all Sanderistas were there.

Clinton lost a few key states by tiny margins. In Wisconsin it was a fraction of a percent.

Maybe my view was skewed by reading Daily Kos nearly every day. But the percentage of posters insisting that they couldn't vote for her because she wasn't really a liberal was enormous. And they succeeded in sabotaging her election, therefore Trump.

Like it or not that's what happened.

I think that a huge problem is that there's a huge number of voters on "the Left" who are every bit as ill informed, and ideologically pure, as the bottom of the Teaparty barrel. Enough to get Trump in office in 2016 and quite possibly again in 2024.

Rather like the Michigan Arab Americans willing to help Trump return to office because they don't like what Biden has done.
Tom

 

[southernhybrid]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Of course they can be known and largely are known. There are, for example, the “Bernie Bros” who were saying months before the election — I well remember reading this analysis in the NY Times — that if Bernie couldn’t get the nomination, their second choice was Donald Trump. And sure enough, a bunch of them voted for Trump in November. There is a lot of info about people who didn’t vote as well, and why they didn’t vote. There’s nothing mysterious about it.

I recall some celebrities who said that we needed to let Trump win to help make the Democratic Party more progressive, because that would teach the rest of the Dems a lesson. When I watched that, all I could think was that those people are fucking nuts. But, sure enough they got their way. I wonder if they learned their lesson from their stupidity.

I also knew some people who never voted for a variety of stupid reasons, and they would have voted for Clinton, if they had voted. My neighbor even helped register one middle aged woman who had never voted in her life, but then she didn't vote. I've talked to young people who didn't even know we had three full weeks of voting in Georgia, so they used the excuse the they had to work on Election Day. I blame Trump on the third party voters, the Trump voters and the apathetic or defiant who refused to vote. Again, maybe if we had a law like the Aussies do, and got rid of the idiotic electoral college, which isn't going to happen in my life time or probably not any of yours, we'd never have another Trump like president.

I voted for Clinton, despite not being a fan. I wanted someone new, but I realized that Clinton was very experienced and reasonable, compared to the alternatives. Another reason she lost was because she was a woman. This fucking country is still too sexist to have a female president. Biden was quite brave to choose a female VP and a lot of people are using that as an excuse not to want to vote for Biden. OMG. What if something happens to him and we end up with Harris? Seriously. You're telling me that a well qualified woman would be worse than a psychopathic white male named Trump!

I know we all agree on getting rid of the electoral college, but the Republicans love it, so it's not going to happen unless enough Republicans die off or change parties. Considering that young Republicans seem to be on the rise, I'm not too optimistic.

Btw, have any of you seen the ad with Bernie and Biden side by side and Bernie giving his full support to Biden? If Bernie can do that, why can't those who don't agree with Biden's support of Israel realize that you don't judge a person based on one thing that you don't like? If Biden wasn't president, the situation in Israel would likely be much worse.

 

[Politesse]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Of course they can be known and largely are known. There are, for example, the “Bernie Bros” who were saying months before the election — I well remember reading this analysis in the NY Times — that if Bernie couldn’t get the nomination, their second choice was Donald Trump. And sure enough, a bunch of them voted for Trump in November. There is a lot of info about people who didn’t vote as well, and why they didn’t vote. There’s nothing mysterious about it.

I recall some celebrities who said that we needed to let Trump win to help make the Democratic Party more progressive, because that would teach the rest of the Dems a lesson. When I watched that, all I could think was that those people are fucking nuts. But, sure enough they got their way. I wonder if they learned their lesson from their stupidity.

I also knew some people who never voted for a variety of stupid reasons, and they would have voted for Clinton, if they had voted. My neighbor even helped register one middle aged woman who had never voted in her life, but then she didn't vote. I've talked to young people who didn't even know we had three full weeks of voting in Georgia, so they used the excuse the they had to work on Election Day. I blame Trump on the third party voters, the Trump voters and the apathetic or defiant who refused to vote. Again, maybe if we had a law like the Aussies do, and got rid of the idiotic electoral college, which isn't going to happen in my life time or probably not any of yours, we'd never have another Trump like president.

I voted for Clinton, despite not being a fan. I wanted someone new, but I realized that Clinton was very experienced and reasonable, compared to the alternatives. Another reason she lost was because she was a woman. This fucking country is still too sexist to have a female president. Biden was quite brave to choose a female VP and a lot of people are using that as an excuse not to want to vote for Biden. OMG. What if something happens to him and we end up with Harris? Seriously. You're telling me that a well qualified woman would be worse than a psychopathic white male named Trump!

I know we all agree on getting rid of the electoral college, but the Republicans love it, so it's not going to happen unless enough Republicans die off or change parties. Considering that young Republicans seem to be on the rise, I'm not too optimistic.

Btw, have any of you seen the ad with Bernie and Biden side by side and Bernie giving his full support to Biden? If Bernie can do that, why can't those who don't agree with Biden's support of Israel realize that you don't judge a person based on one thing that you don't like? If Biden wasn't president, the situation in Israel would likely be much worse.

Did you ever lose a family member to murder? It punches one hell of a hole in a community.

 

[Elixir]

Clinton lost a few key states by tiny margins. In Wisconsin it was a fraction of a percent.

That ^
Unless the sitters at home and the Bernie/Trumpers were staying at home and voting for Trump in those very few States, it probably doesn’t matter. 20-20 hindsight etc. But I expect similar margins this year. By any rational logical reckoning, the Putin/deTorquemada Party should lose, hook line and sinker all the way down the ballot. But alas

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Trump hailed as "destroyer of America" on Russian state TV

Russian analysts also warned that if Democrats manage to "pin him [Trump] down," the 2024 presidential election could end in a Biden victory.

www.newsweek.com

Vote for Trump so he can destroy America!

They really must be sure of their control of the MAGA crowd to say the quiet part out loud like this.

 

[southernhybrid]

So your argument is only rational if we assume that you are correct in assessing the sympathies and motivations of a mysterious group of non-voters about whom nothing concrete is known or can be known?

Of course they can be known and largely are known. There are, for example, the “Bernie Bros” who were saying months before the election — I well remember reading this analysis in the NY Times — that if Bernie couldn’t get the nomination, their second choice was Donald Trump. And sure enough, a bunch of them voted for Trump in November. There is a lot of info about people who didn’t vote as well, and why they didn’t vote. There’s nothing mysterious about it.

I recall some celebrities who said that we needed to let Trump win to help make the Democratic Party more progressive, because that would teach the rest of the Dems a lesson. When I watched that, all I could think was that those people are fucking nuts. But, sure enough they got their way. I wonder if they learned their lesson from their stupidity.

I also knew some people who never voted for a variety of stupid reasons, and they would have voted for Clinton, if they had voted. My neighbor even helped register one middle aged woman who had never voted in her life, but then she didn't vote. I've talked to young people who didn't even know we had three full weeks of voting in Georgia, so they used the excuse the they had to work on Election Day. I blame Trump on the third party voters, the Trump voters and the apathetic or defiant who refused to vote. Again, maybe if we had a law like the Aussies do, and got rid of the idiotic electoral college, which isn't going to happen in my life time or probably not any of yours, we'd never have another Trump like president.

I voted for Clinton, despite not being a fan. I wanted someone new, but I realized that Clinton was very experienced and reasonable, compared to the alternatives. Another reason she lost was because she was a woman. This fucking country is still too sexist to have a female president. Biden was quite brave to choose a female VP and a lot of people are using that as an excuse not to want to vote for Biden. OMG. What if something happens to him and we end up with Harris? Seriously. You're telling me that a well qualified woman would be worse than a psychopathic white male named Trump!

I know we all agree on getting rid of the electoral college, but the Republicans love it, so it's not going to happen unless enough Republicans die off or change parties. Considering that young Republicans seem to be on the rise, I'm not too optimistic.

Btw, have any of you seen the ad with Bernie and Biden side by side and Bernie giving his full support to Biden? If Bernie can do that, why can't those who don't agree with Biden's support of Israel realize that you don't judge a person based on one thing that you don't like? If Biden wasn't president, the situation in Israel would likely be much worse.

Did you ever lose a family member to murder? It punches one hell of a hole in a community.

No, I haven't personally lost a family member to murder but I don't agree that a murder usually punches a hole in an entire community. For example, in 2023, 1232 people were killed by police in the US, and 18,874 Americans were killed by gun violence and 36, 357 were injured by guns violence and that doesn't include suicides. ( Yes. I looked up the numbers. Do your own DD. I'm too lazy to add all the links. )

Some of these murders happened in my own little city, yet the community doesn't seem to be acting like it's had a hell of a hole punched in it. I think the people who are so upset over Gaza to the point that they will help Trump win are wrong. America is our community for better or worse, yet we don't seem to care enough about our own people to do anything about gun control, and you seem a bit obsessed over Gaza, when similar things are happening right here.

Humans are a violent species who often over react to things, like for example murders due to road rage. At least there was a good reason for Israel to react the way it did after Hamas killed, harmed and took some innocent civilians hostage, probably in hopes of causing chaos.

Now Bibi is going too far, imo, but isn't this what often or usually happens when a country or group is violently attacked? You of all people should understand this! I've just viewed it through the lens of the many wars that occurred during the course of my life and the horrible gang violence, etc. Although I embrace the values of secular humanism, I realize they are very idealistic and unrealistic.

While I despise what's happening to innocent civilians and while I don't think that you or I are prone to violence personally, why aren't the same people who are so upset about Israel, not very upset about Hamas? Why are some chanting the phrase "from the river to the sea", which is commonly meant to wipe out Israel. Then they make excuses for that.

Israel has been the only democracy in the area, even if it's now showing signs of declining, as are many other democracies. Are we to abandon them? Then what? This is why I see Biden in an extremely difficult situation and now Iran is attacking Israel. Do we side with Iran? /s When a country or person is attacked in such a violent way as the innocent Israeli citizens and tourists were on October 7th, over reacting isn't uncommon. So, on the one hand, I have empathy for the people in Gaza who are innocent, but I can also understand why Israel is over reacting, even if I think it's wrong. Your point of view, imo, seems a bit simplistic. Life is far more complicated and sometimes we have to compromise our values in order to prevent something worse happening.

I'm not too worried about what we're saying here turning anyone against Biden supporters. This is a small discussion board, and some of us have known each other for over 20 years. This is more like a group of friends discussing something that some of us have different opinions on.

 

[ZiprHead]

The Arab Americans in Michigan are in a completely different position. The last two elections were decided by tiny numbers of voters. That's why their waffling could be so destructive to Palestinian interests. Just like all those people too good to vote for Clinton had just as much influence over the ending of RvW as the most solidly Trump supporting Baptist anti-abortion voters.

Disliking the reality doesn't change it. If Michigan goes red again, and Trump squeaks into the White House, the disastrous effects on Gaza will be just as real as the disastrous effects on abortion rights when he got in 2016.

Frankly as a Michigander, I think our Arab population will come around to vote for Biden. I've run into many of them. They are not stupid people. Frankly them and Indians (from India) are the kindest people I've ever run across. They will certainly not vote for the Muslim ban guy.