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WL Craig on God's foreknowledge

So, this famously Omniscient Creator throws the dice knowing which way they will fall...but the dice have a choice? :p

It's called compatibilism. Supposedly, we have free will, but God knows what you will freely chose to do. You could fill a small library with the journal articles and books written about compatibilism vs incompaibilism.

Thank you, I confess ignorance, I tried to read up on the topic once but I couldn't keep my eyes open.

So it is possible to do other than what God knows you will do? Interesting.
 
It fixes all events in HIS past. yes, exactly... just like our own past is fixed. The thing is, "HIS" past is our future... one that will eventually be decided by us... or in other words, has already been decided by us in the future. All I hear as a complaint about this is "what if I change my mind?" well then at that point the information will have changed... so what? When you say, "WHEN god observes..." you are falling into a linguistic trap. God does not observe in a "when".. so it is not linear like the mortal making the decisions.

disclaimer: god does not exist, omniscience does not exist, and this is kind of why it is not likely that it could... but it is fun to talk about.

So, this famously Omniscient Creator throws the dice knowing which way they will fall...but the dice have a choice? :p

I don't understand. what does the throw of dice have to do with anything we are talking about? I did mention in a different post that I personally do not believe in "random".. so the outcome of a throw of the dice would not only be determinable and / or controllable by an omniscient entity, it can be done by you and me right now, today. You just need a VERY controlled environment to be able to make the prediction / control the outcome... dice are not "magical".. they follow the laws of physics.
 
So, this famously Omniscient Creator throws the dice knowing which way they will fall...but the dice have a choice? :p

It's called compatibilism. Supposedly, we have free will, but God knows what you will freely chose to do. You could fill a small library with the journal articles and books written about compatibilism vs incompaibilism.

I don't doubt it... I just am very confused why that would be.. it seems extremely simply to me. Let's use a famous dead person as an example.. let's use John Lennon. Can we agree that John Lennon was born on October 9, 1940, died December 8, 1980? Can we also agree that John could only have made decisions while he was alive? I am assuming so. Lets say we have been following this guy around all his life, and we know every single thing he did, and every single thing he thought, etc.. we are "John Lennon Omniscient", OK? What is the problem with us making statements about what he did whaile he was alive? What is the argument one can make that, in 1969, he would marry Yoko Ono? This happened. You cannot say, "ya, but he can change his mind". No, he cannot. not only has this already happened for him, he's fucking dead now and can "change his mind" at all.

How is this any different if John were alive today? can he "change his mind" and retroactively not marry Yoko? of course not.

So what is the problem with an omniscient entity seeing John Lennon's lifeline 100,000 years ago, the same way you and I see it today? How does this affect free will, or John's choices at all... they were still free choices, even though we can look them up on Wikipedia.
 
It sounds like you are conflating "free will" with "quantum uncertainty".
No, I am simply discussing the implications of knowledge for uncertainty. The past is defined by 'what is knowable'; the idea of free will in the past seems to me to be incoherent - if you see me wearing a blue tie, I can't go back to this morning and choose a different one.

Equally if God knows I will wear a red tie on December 4th next year, I can no longer change that fact. And if I could change it, He wouldn't know.

Schroedinger's cat is just a convenient simple thought experiment about how observation fixes the past. It's familiarity saves me from having to explain the details; the quantum effects themselves are not real important in this context.
Personally, I do not believe in quantum uncertainty
It is a set of observations; it is something that exists, and does not require belief. You may choose to believe or disbelieve any of the interpretations of it that have yet to be experimentally ruled out; but saying 'I don't believe in quantum uncertainty' is like saying 'I don't believe in gravity'.
any more than I believe that anything can be "random"... and I also believe that "free will" is an illusion. The cat is not both alive and dead.. our measuring processes are simply flawed and contribute to the measurement.
I agree that "free will" is likely an illusion. But the whole point of quantum uncertainty is that our measuring processes MUST be flawed - precise measurements of certain pairs of facts are not just difficult, they are impossible.

This is the most important part of what you were saying, I think:
An event that is in the past for ANY single observer is immutable, regardless of its being in the future of all other observers; if God is a super observer with the ability to observe all events at any point in time, then when he does so, he fixes ALL events in his past - and eliminates any alternative possible events than those he observed. Only if the first observer has yet to observe the event, can the event's outcome be indeterminate.

It fixes all events in HIS past. yes, exactly... just like our own past is fixed. The thing is, "HIS" past is our future... one that will eventually be decided by us... or in other words, has already been decided by us in the future. All I hear as a complaint about this is "what if I change my mind?" well then at that point the information will have changed... so what?
Quite. If you are going to change your mind, then that change is already part of the totality of space time, so it has, from A God's perspective already occurred.
When you say, "WHEN god observes..." you are falling into a linguistic trap. God does not observe in a "when".. so it is not linear like the mortal making the decisions.
Yes - a more precise phrase might be 'given that God observed' - all events have been seen by God before any of them happen. That's what foreknowledge means.
disclaimer: god does not exist, omniscience does not exist, and this is kind of why it is not likely that it could... but it is fun to talk about.
Of course; this is purely hypothetical. IF an omnicognisant entity or entities exist, THEN choices (freely willed or otherwise) are logically impossible.

Of course, no such entities exist; but that doesn't render free will a certainty, or even very likely. Certainly human brains operate on the scale of chemical reactions, where quantum effects are not significant.

My understanding is that descision making in the brain is chaotic - like the weather, it is completely determined, but nevertheless impossible to predict.

Of course that doesn't stop the philosophers from wasting oceans of ink on the subject.

You still seem to be constraining the omniscient entity to a timeline. Your "complaint" is that you can't change your mind about the color of your tie if the omniscient entity "already knows" what the color will be. It might be better to express it from the omniscient entities point of view... "it already happened and I am just stating the obvious for all who are here in the future looking back into the past". This entity is not seeing the future... they are seeing the past.. EVERYTHING is in the past for him.

If this entity communicates with you in your past, thus changing the past, that would indeed change the future (maybe you choose a new tie color, just to be a dick :) ). But this is not what I am talking about. That situation creates a paradox. one certainly CAN write volumes of books on that... it is an impossible situation.. like paradoxes generally are.
 
It's called compatibilism. Supposedly, we have free will, but God knows what you will freely chose to do. You could fill a small library with the journal articles and books written about compatibilism vs incompaibilism.

Thank you, I confess ignorance, I tried to read up on the topic once but I couldn't keep my eyes open.

So it is possible to do other than what God knows you will do? Interesting.

No.

Part of this whole problem is varying theories of how god knows the future If the future is determinate, we have no free will. If God is omnscient and knows 80 years before that on a given day Fred will mow his yard, God who knows all and is never wrong, knows what Fred will do even before Fred is born. This seems to point to a strictly determinate future. Fred's free will is illusionary if it is predetermined Fred will on the appointed day mow his yard. Some try to slide around this with theories of God's knowledge vs God's belief.

They claim is no matter what you will freely choose to do, God will know that. The problem is, various verses in Paul's epsitles (and in the Quran) seem to indicate we have no free will. This lead Augustine to give up on free will, and following him, Luther, Calvin and others. Briefly the RCC followed Augustine and then chickened out, adopting semi-Pelagianism.
 
So, this famously Omniscient Creator throws the dice knowing which way they will fall...but the dice have a choice? :p

I don't understand. what does the throw of dice have to do with anything we are talking about? I did mention in a different post that I personally do not believe in "random".. so the outcome of a throw of the dice would not only be determinable and / or controllable by an omniscient entity, it can be done by you and me right now, today. You just need a VERY controlled environment to be able to make the prediction / control the outcome... dice are not "magical".. they follow the laws of physics.

Unfortunately, deterministic is not the same thing as predictable, as any weather forecaster can tell you.

It is not possible to predict a dice throw reliably, because no matter how good your measurements of the launch conditions, they won't be good enough for certainty about the outcome.

Heisenberg tells us that we cannot measure the starting conditions to an arbitrary degree of precision.
 
Again, anything you say about any of this depends on which model of God you choose to believe.

A god not within Time who can see all states of existence, past or future as if is now.

Or a God that has chosen to create an all encompassing plan where all happens becuse God wills it to happen. God's providence and predestination. (Calvin)

Laplace's demon
We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.
— Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities[3]


 
Again, anything you say about any of this depends on which model of God you choose to believe.

A god not within Time who can see all states of existence, past or future as if is now.

Or a God that has chosen to create an all encompassing plan where all happens becuse God wills it to happen. God's providence and predestination. (Calvin)

Laplace's demon
We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.
— Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities[3]



Heisenberg showed that he was wrong.

Laplace had the excuse that Heisenberg was in the future when he made this incorrect assertion. We no longer have that excuse.

Deterministic does NOT imply predictable or foreseeable; Laplace's demon cannot predict the future state of the universe, as the information he is defined as having is impossible to attain.
 
Again, anything you say about any of this depends on which model of God you choose to believe.

A god not within Time who can see all states of existence, past or future as if is now.

Or a God that has chosen to create an all encompassing plan where all happens becuse God wills it to happen. God's providence and predestination. (Calvin)

Laplace's demon
We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.
— Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities[3]



Heisenberg showed that he was wrong.

Laplace had the excuse that Heisenberg was in the future when he made this incorrect assertion. We no longer have that excuse.

Deterministic does NOT imply predictable or foreseeable; Laplace's demon cannot predict the future state of the universe, as the information he is defined as having is impossible to attain.

Yes, exactly. Modern quantum physics destroys Laplacian strict determination. Of course, since God is magical, many believers will ignore that.
 
Heisenberg showed that he was wrong.

Laplace had the excuse that Heisenberg was in the future when he made this incorrect assertion. We no longer have that excuse.

Deterministic does NOT imply predictable or foreseeable; Laplace's demon cannot predict the future state of the universe, as the information he is defined as having is impossible to attain.

Yes, exactly. Modern quantum physics destroys Laplacian strict determination. Of course, since God is magical, many believers will ignore that.
Listen to you guys, talking about quantum mechanics and probability, Heisenberg and Laplace's demon. Holy shit fuck! Do you really think people have decided between these things and Magic Sky King?

Believing in Magic Sky King is as easy as it gets. It doesn't require intellect. These people don't make choices.
 
I am not really interested in the lowest levels of true believers. I am more interested in the attempts by the theologians to prove their claims about God and the failure of their proofs. I want to know who is wrong or right about the whole mess.
 
Again, anything you say about any of this depends on which model of God you choose to believe.

A god not within Time who can see all states of existence, past or future as if is now.

Or a God that has chosen to create an all encompassing plan where all happens becuse God wills it to happen. God's providence and predestination. (Calvin)

Laplace's demon
We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.
— Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities[3]



I thought the discussion was about omniscience. The type of god we are talking about is an omniscient one. "God's Foreknowldege" is a misnomer. It would be closer to accurate to speak of "gods ability to recall the past, as he exists in the infinite future (and all points there before"... but that is a clumsy way of speaking for temporal entities such as yourselves.. err, ourselves.
 
Did god foreknow anything about the universe before he created it?

I mean, if time didn't exist yet, how did he foreknow how the universe would turn out?

Furthermore, if time didn't exist yet, how did he take any actions at all? How did he think thoughts without time?

William Lane Craig's crap just gets more and more absurd the more he talks about it.

The famous response to that is, "when did god have the time to create time?"
 
It's impossible to talk about God and time adequately without discussing the models of how God supposedly foreknows the future. Each model has it's own difficulties. The problem is, when naive believers talk about God and knowledge of the future, they really aren't talking about a specific God model all too often. So there isn't much of a bumper sticker answer one can hit them with. And a lot of discussions about the nature of God have this defect. In the end, it all get's brushed off with quips, "God is incomprehensible", "I believe in the Bible" and so on.
 
"What time did God create the Cosmos, and where in the world did he put it?"
 
It's impossible to talk about God and time adequately without discussing the models of how God supposedly foreknows the future. Each model has it's own difficulties. The problem is, when naive believers talk about God and knowledge of the future, they really aren't talking about a specific God model all too often. So there isn't much of a bumper sticker answer one can hit them with. And a lot of discussions about the nature of God have this defect. In the end, it all get's brushed off with quips, "God is incomprehensible", "I believe in the Bible" and so on.

You're right... I have been assuming (for no real good reason, now that I think about it more), that "god's foreknowledge" is just a component of "god's omniscience". But I guess that is not necessarily... necessary.

If an entity that has "foreknowledge", is still "within time", and not necessarily "all powerful", then it stands to reason that the universe this entity lives in must be fully pre-determined and there is no free will.. just the playing out of a sequence of inevitabilities.

If, however, this entity has additional properties, like being "separate from time", then "god's foreknowledge" is easily understood as being a simple observation of the "past".

So to get past this, I think Charlie must answer his own question (being the OP and all)...
 
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