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Woke is white arrogance

untermensche

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You want the employer to be able to force people to not kneel quietly during the national anthem.

You want employees treated as slaves.

Again, if a person has a problem with Kaepernick quietly kneeling they have a serious problem.

When you're on the clock you do what the boss tells you to do unless it's dangerous or illegal.

He is paid to be a QB.

He is not paid to worship the flag of a nation with serious problems.

You simply don't care about those problems.

I know what people who get bent out of shape about uppity black men are.
 

Don2 (Don1 Revised)

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They are not actors but sports is entertainment.

All entertainment is not acting.

Right........

which is why I wrote that football players are not actors.

Sorry I didn't read your mind.

My post said what was on my mind. Trausti wrote that athletes are actors following a script. He likely wrote this because of Kaepernick. Generally speaking, athletes are NOT actors following a script. One could argue this applies often to pro wrestlers, but certainly not football players. That's all what I wrote. I agree with you that sports is entertainment to audiences and it follows that athletes are entertainers, but Trausti's response to you was over the top and clearly false to any unbiased observer.
 

untermensche

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Sorry I didn't read your mind.

My post said what was on my mind. Trausti wrote that athletes are actors following a script. He likely wrote this because of Kaepernick. Generally speaking, athletes are NOT actors following a script. One could argue this applies often to pro wrestlers, but certainly not football players. That's all what I wrote. I agree with you that sports is entertainment to audiences and it follows that athletes are entertainers, but Trausti's response to you was over the top and clearly false to any unbiased observer.

He tried to be clever.

But of course sports is not scripted. The outcome is not known.

Nobody is acting. Except those god damn European soccer players and their stupid acting to draw penalties. It cheapens the game.
 

Politesse

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Really, even the thread title is pretty damn ironic. The OP author wishes to accuse liberal-minded whites of arrogance in their dealings with non-whites (I guess?). But by defining the concept of wokeness as "white arrogance", he implicitly excludes African-Americans from the conversation over a phrase and aesthetic that originated in the work of people of color. Why does this person feel so comfortable treating Black poets, writers, and musicians as irrelevant to the discussion of a trend that began with their creativity? How is this anything other than an example of what results from carefully taught "white arrogance"?
 

untermensche

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Really, even the thread title is pretty damn ironic. The OP author wishes to accuse liberal-minded whites of arrogance in their dealings with non-whites (I guess?). But by defining the concept of wokeness as "white arrogance", he implicitly excludes African-Americans from the conversation over a phrase and aesthetic that originated in the work of people of color. Why does this person feel so comfortable treating Black poets, writers, and musicians as irrelevant to the discussion of a trend that began with their creativity? How is this anything other than an example of what results from carefully taught "white arrogance"?

The phrase means nothing.

It is a Pavlov trigger to get some dogs barking.
 

Trausti

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Sorry I didn't read your mind.

My post said what was on my mind. Trausti wrote that athletes are actors following a script. He likely wrote this because of Kaepernick. Generally speaking, athletes are NOT actors following a script. One could argue this applies often to pro wrestlers, but certainly not football players. That's all what I wrote. I agree with you that sports is entertainment to audiences and it follows that athletes are entertainers, but Trausti's response to you was over the top and clearly false to any unbiased observer.

FFS, you don’t know what a metaphor is?
 

Don2 (Don1 Revised)

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Sorry I didn't read your mind.

My post said what was on my mind. Trausti wrote that athletes are actors following a script. He likely wrote this because of Kaepernick. Generally speaking, athletes are NOT actors following a script. One could argue this applies often to pro wrestlers, but certainly not football players. That's all what I wrote. I agree with you that sports is entertainment to audiences and it follows that athletes are entertainers, but Trausti's response to you was over the top and clearly false to any unbiased observer.

FFS, you don’t know what a metaphor is?

FFS, the over the top metaphor doesn't help your case at all. It's not a good metaphor to make your point. You should be so ashamed of the post by now you shouldn't be trying to double down on it. Don't do a Trump. Just move on.
 

untermensche

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Sorry I didn't read your mind.

My post said what was on my mind. Trausti wrote that athletes are actors following a script. He likely wrote this because of Kaepernick. Generally speaking, athletes are NOT actors following a script. One could argue this applies often to pro wrestlers, but certainly not football players. That's all what I wrote. I agree with you that sports is entertainment to audiences and it follows that athletes are entertainers, but Trausti's response to you was over the top and clearly false to any unbiased observer.

FFS, you don’t know what a metaphor is?

You don't know what a QB's job is.

It has nothing to with displays of ignorant patriotism.
 

Arctish

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You don't know what a QB's job is.

It has nothing to with displays of ignorant patriotism.

Speaking of displays of patriotism, does anyone here think there would have been this much outcry if Kaepernick had gone down on one knee to draw attention to the need to support our wounded veterans, or to support the rights of bakers to refuse to decorate cakes for gay couples, or whatever cause du jour Fox News was touting? Do you think he would have been criticized for kneeling during the anthem to express his faith in God and Country?

I think all this talk about employees in uniform not being allowed to kneel is just a convenient post hoc excuse for people who were upset he was openly supporting #BLM.
 

untermensche

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The land of the free.

Except for black QB's wanting to silently kneel during jingoistic nonsense.
 

Gospel

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The land of the free.

Except for black QB's wanting to silently kneel during jingoistic nonsense.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the anthem before a sports game is jingoism but I do notice the irony when someone cries "you shouldn't disrespect soldiers that died for your freedom to protest by protesting!"
 

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The land of the free.

Except for black QB's wanting to silently kneel during jingoistic nonsense.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the anthem before a sports game is jingoism but I do notice the irony when someone cries "you shouldn't disrespect soldiers that died for your freedom to protest by protesting!"

Kaep got the idea of kneeling from a veteran.
 

laughing dog

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You don't know what a QB's job is.

It has nothing to with displays of ignorant patriotism.

Speaking of displays of patriotism, does anyone here think there would have been this much outcry if Kaepernick had gone down on one knee to draw attention to the need to support our wounded veterans, or to support the rights of bakers to refuse to decorate cakes for gay couples, or whatever cause du jour Fox News was touting? Do you think he would have been criticized for kneeling during the anthem to express his faith in God and Country?
Certainly not by Fox commentators or our human shitstain of a POTUS. Hell, if he had been protesting "fake news", he'd have been lauded.
I think all this talk about employees in uniform not being allowed to kneel is just a convenient post hoc excuse for people who were upset he was openly supporting #BLM.
I think there is substantial truth to that.
 

untermensche

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The land of the free.

Except for black QB's wanting to silently kneel during jingoistic nonsense.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the anthem before a sports game is jingoism but I do notice the irony when someone cries "you shouldn't disrespect soldiers that died for your freedom to protest by protesting!"

It is jingoism.

It is patriotic propaganda. Football has nothing to do with the national anthem.

I was at the Super Bowl this year.

As the national anthem finished three military planes flew overhead.

I like to talk about going to the Super Bowl. I live in the Tampa area and am a bucs fan. I went because I work in a hospital and had my second vaccine before January 19th.
 

KeepTalking

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I am not a conservative and I am not wrong.

Whatever you say, Derec.

It was definitely an obscure term. You may have heard it used in the radical lefty circles you move in, but it was not in widespread, and certainly not in mainstream, use until Ferguson rioters and activists popularized it.

I said it was in use for decades in my experience, and then proved you wrong with verifiable evidence. Sorry, you are too conservative to ever be wrong, but the evidence is upthread. For the record, when I first heard it used in this context, no one would ever have used it in association with myself, as I was a Reagan Republican at the time.

gradually gaining more and more use as a compliment until the right-wing (I mean the totally not right-wing like Derec) noticed and had to turn it into a pejorative.

Those opposed to the left wing (not all of those are right-wing!) only started using it as a pejorative after it came into common usage via Ferguson insurrectionists. And there was nothing gradual about it either.

I gave you verifiable evidence of the time frame I initially referenced for it having been in use. You have nothing. Admit it, you were wrong.
 

KeepTalking

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The woke have canceled Roy ‘Chubby’ Brown;

Roy 'Chubby' Brown fans have branded those who called for the Sheffield gig to be cancelled as "snowflakes".

North Yorkshire comedian Roy 'Chubby' Brown's show in the city was axed after thousands signed a petition calling for it to be cancelled. Sheffield City Hall then decided his comedy was not suited to the venue and scrapped the show.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/sheffields-fury-woke-decision-axe-21464729

This statement pretty much captures the putrid essence of woke;

Councillor Terry Fox, leader of Sheffield City Council, added: “The council wholeheartedly supports Sheffield City Trust’s decision to remove the booking for Roy Chubby Brown’s January show. Sheffield is a City of Sanctuary, with diverse communities and the content of this show is unlikely to reflect Sheffield’s inclusive values.”

What a trumpet.

Isn't the lack of ticket sales all the petitions you need? If you need to make a petition to stop a guy from performing at a paid gig you've already lost the popular appeal. It's an activity intended to prevent something enough people are cool with, but this dick wants to use local government power, to stop it anyway. The fact that anybody has bought any tickets means that they should back off and let him perform. What a bunch of assholes.

BTW, I've seen one of his shows. I sat the whole time in shocked disbelief at the things that guy was saying. Not a progressive guy. I turned it off. I think this guy is a racist. I still think he should be allowed to perform. I'm completely cool about people not agreeing with me and my values.

This was probably the best thing that ever happened to Roy 'Chubby' Brown. I certainly had never heard of him before this.
 

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The land of the free.

Except for black QB's wanting to silently kneel during jingoistic nonsense.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the anthem before a sports game is jingoism but I do notice the irony when someone cries "you shouldn't disrespect soldiers that died for your freedom to protest by protesting!"

Hmmm... USA is a special country. It's a country held together by an ideal, rather than the territory gathered up by some bloated maffioso placing a bunch of peasants in a ruthless and extortative relationship. As far as nation building USA truly is a gem for lots of reasons unrelated to jingoism. You can sing the American anthem without loading it with any of the implications that come from any of the European anthems (except the French). All European anthems have problematic lines (except the French).

I don't think the Star-Spangled banner is necessarily jingoistic. As far as anthems go, it's one of the least problematic... by far.

I also love that it's one of the few anthems that isn't looking back to some long lost glorious past. It includes references to cutting edge technological fancy thingamagigs. It unashamedly looks forward toward a bright and glorious future. It's fun and engaging like any excellent musicals.

It's also fun singing songs together. That's true for any anthem. You don't need to add any symbolism to it other than that it's nice to have at least one single song everybody can get behind.

Me personally I believe that the world will not truly be free until the last king has been strangled by the entrails of the last priest. But even I enjoy singing the Swedish anthem. Also the Danish, even though I am not Danish. By heritage, the Danes are my sworn enemies. Their anthem is supposed to be the font of all evil for a Swede. I don't care. It's fun to sing together.

If you have a problem with the American anthem, this planet is not for you.
 

KeepTalking

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The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?
Quilette Opinion Piece said:
Long before the woke Left was imagining systemic oppression everywhere, the anti-sex movement (an alliance of the religious Right and radical feminists) was identifying a deeply serious—yet strangely hard to quantify—problem: our fourth trend, sex trafficking.

If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.
 

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The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?
Quilette Opinion Piece said:
Long before the woke Left was imagining systemic oppression everywhere, the anti-sex movement (an alliance of the religious Right and radical feminists) was identifying a deeply serious—yet strangely hard to quantify—problem: our fourth trend, sex trafficking.

If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.
 

Politesse

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Hearing someone complain about the peril of witch hunts while more or less inventing an enemy out of whole cloth and claiming to find them everywhere is an additional layer of irony for this thread.
 

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If my memory is correct, Mr. Kaepernick's protest caused a larger furor than Tommy Smith and John Carlos's did in 1968.

It seems we haven't come as far in race relations as many people believe.

Surely the larger the protest the more the belief is mainstream? If Kaepernick's protest led to more protest doesn't it mean that race relations have improved? The intensity of the protest means that the sense of threat is greater. I'm pretty sure that in 1968 racists and white supremacists didn't feel particularly threatened. They had less reasons to show their anger. Fury is more a result of somebody feeling pushed into a corner rather than them feeling secure in their power. Not to mention Kaepernick had a greater fan club than Smith and Carlos did. The beatniks and hippies were a tiny tiny part of society. The wokes are the dominant power player in current politics.

No?
I lived through that period. White racists and supremacists felt very threatened during the 1960s - that was the period when civil rights were being restored to people of color. There were riots in big cities. Blacks were still being violently attacked in the South.

Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones' protest was seen worldwide while they were representing the USA (not some cities's professional sports team). It was a real big deal both in its audacity, simplicity and innovation.

While I agree that today's bigots, racists and white supremacists feel threatened, I think you really misunderstand US history.
 

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If you have a problem with the American anthem, this planet is not for you.
What an utterly ridiculous and ignorant thing to say. Francis Scott Key shoved a dictionary and a lot of punctuation into a terribly sick pig, and then gathered up what was blown out the rear end of said pig to tell the story of our getting our butts whooped in the War of 1812 and put it to an impossible to sing acoustic harmony of a drinking song. The thing has several verses that no one knows. It is awful! It is so bad, the only good thing about it was it inspired this moment.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxHnXajIex4[/YOUTUBE]

American the Beautiful is sweet, to the point, easy to sing, and gets us from the beginning to the end without needing a water break.
God Bless America is self-serving, but checks most of the boxes. The Flyers' had Kate Smith perform God Bless America, not the Star Spangled Banner... and it is an icon moment for Philadelphia Flyers' history.
 

KeepTalking

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The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?


If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke.

Of course it does. Woke is about being aware of things like systemic oppression. If they were not systemically oppressed here in the US, blacks would not need to be woke to that fact.

Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

I never said it was. I only mentioned that it is fucking stupid to say "the woke Left was imagining systemic oppression everywhere", because there is actually systemic oppression somewhere, so they are not necessarily imagining it.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

The left does not think that woke is inseparable from being left, it is conservatives who have painted it that way. Please review the responses from myself and other self-identified leftists in this thread and others who do not identify as being woke.

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

You are wrong on all accounts. Why are you so willing to swallow the conservative line on this?

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

It absolutely is not, but what does that have to do with the opinion piece to which you linked? I really want to know how you think that it shows anything about the left, or the woke. The only thing I see even remotely relating to the topic are the imaginations of the author. Every single topic he mentions in that screed he directly relates to things that conservatives have done and are doing, no evidence is provided about leftists or "wokes" doing anything tangential to the topic, yet somehow it is all the fault of the woke boogeyman. There is not even enough reasoning there to call it "shoddy", and I really want to know what you found so compelling about it.
 

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The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

Interesting side note here. I hang with a black womanist group on a regular basis. Somewhere around 75% or higher of them view BLM, CRT, and the entirety of "woke" ideology to be shallow performances put on by predominantly white folks, so those white folks feel like they're gaining virtue points instead of actually having to do something real. They almost universally oppose defunding the police, and think that's a horrible idea and borders on misogynistic, because they already can't get enough support from local law enforcement when it comes to the abhorrent levels of domestic abuse and rape that they face (much higher rates than among white women).
 

Emily Lake

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Hearing someone complain about the peril of witch hunts while more or less inventing an enemy out of whole cloth and claiming to find them everywhere is an additional layer of irony for this thread.

How about noting that the underlying dogmatic views involved in current progressive views on social justice bear an uncanny similarly to the kind of zealous adherence to authoritarian religiosity so prevalent in Torquemada and his followers... and is highly likely to lead to a modern-day inquisition?
 

Toni

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The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?


If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

So the fact that there is systematic oppression does not justify....being aware of such systematic oppression (It's racism, btw. We can just say it's racism.) and acknowledging that systemic oppression (AKA systemic racism) exists? We're supposed to stick our heads in the sand and call our dark skinned friends the N word and act like it's all cool....

It's wrong to be 'wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism?' So, we're supposed to just be cool with racism and sexism, if it's not too egregious? If it doesn't offend our sensibilities? Because it doesn't matter to cool dudes such as yourself that racism and sexism harms real live people?

Because....conservatives might be offended?

It's ok to offend and harm people negatively affected by sexism and racism but it's not OK to offend....conservatives?


You mean: conservatives such as yourself, right?
 

Toni

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The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

Interesting side note here. I hang with a black womanist group on a regular basis. Somewhere around 75% or higher of them view BLM, CRT, and the entirety of "woke" ideology to be shallow performances put on by predominantly white folks, so those white folks feel like they're gaining virtue points instead of actually having to do something real. They almost universally oppose defunding the police, and think that's a horrible idea and borders on misogynistic, because they already can't get enough support from local law enforcement when it comes to the abhorrent levels of domestic abuse and rape that they face (much higher rates than among white women).

I'm sure that a lot of white people do have fairly shallow views of systemic racism, given that they themselves are not victims and can only see it from the outside, not experience it from within.

I agree with the whole misdirected energy directed at 'defund the police' and actually feel quite certain that the phrase was deliberately coined in order to create division and opposition to much needed reforms to policing in this country.
 

TSwizzle

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How about noting that the underlying dogmatic views involved in current progressive views on social justice bear an uncanny similarly to the kind of zealous adherence to authoritarian religiosity so prevalent in Torquemada and his followers... and is highly likely to lead to a modern-day inquisition?

It is already happening;

The “flame purification” ceremony, first reported by Radio Canada, was held in 2019 by the Conseil scolaire catholique Providence, which oversees elementary and secondary schools in southwestern Ontario. Some 30 books, the national broadcaster reported, were burned for “educational purposes” and then the ashes were used as fertilizer to plant a tree. “We bury the ashes of racism, discrimination and stereotypes in the hope that we will grow up in an inclusive country where all can live in prosperity and security,” says a video prepared for students about the book burning, Radio Canada reported. In total, more than 4,700 books were removed from library shelves at 30 schools across the school board, and they have since been destroyed or are in the process of being recycled, Radio Canada reported.

Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.
 

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The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?


If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

So the fact that there is systematic oppression does not justify....being aware of such systematic oppression (It's racism, btw. We can just say it's racism.) and acknowledging that systemic oppression (AKA systemic racism) exists? We're supposed to stick our heads in the sand and call our dark skinned friends the N word and act like it's all cool....

It's wrong to be 'wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism?' So, we're supposed to just be cool with racism and sexism, if it's not too egregious? If it doesn't offend our sensibilities? Because it doesn't matter to cool dudes such as yourself that racism and sexism harms real live people?

Because....conservatives might be offended?

It's ok to offend and harm people negatively affected by sexism and racism but it's not OK to offend....conservatives?


You mean: conservatives such as yourself, right?

All very valid points.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Interesting side note here. I hang with a black womanist group on a regular basis. Somewhere around 75% or higher of them view BLM, CRT, and the entirety of "woke" ideology to be shallow performances put on by predominantly white folks, so those white folks feel like they're gaining virtue points instead of actually having to do something real. They almost universally oppose defunding the police, and think that's a horrible idea and borders on misogynistic, because they already can't get enough support from local law enforcement when it comes to the abhorrent levels of domestic abuse and rape that they face (much higher rates than among white women).

No surprise. There's an awful lot of virtue signaling from both sides.
 

KeepTalking

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How about noting that the underlying dogmatic views involved in current progressive views on social justice bear an uncanny similarly to the kind of zealous adherence to authoritarian religiosity so prevalent in Torquemada and his followers... and is highly likely to lead to a modern-day inquisition?

It is already happening;

The “flame purification” ceremony, first reported by Radio Canada, was held in 2019 by the Conseil scolaire catholique Providence, which oversees elementary and secondary schools in southwestern Ontario. Some 30 books, the national broadcaster reported, were burned for “educational purposes” and then the ashes were used as fertilizer to plant a tree. “We bury the ashes of racism, discrimination and stereotypes in the hope that we will grow up in an inclusive country where all can live in prosperity and security,” says a video prepared for students about the book burning, Radio Canada reported. In total, more than 4,700 books were removed from library shelves at 30 schools across the school board, and they have since been destroyed or are in the process of being recycled, Radio Canada reported.

Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.

While the above seems absolutely indefensible to me, and I in no way endorse it, inquisition it aint...
 

Jarhyn

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It is already happening;



Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.

While the above seems absolutely indefensible to me, and I in no way endorse it, inquisition it aint...

Yeah, it's not an inquisition. And yah, it's absolutely indefensible.

Granted I would see a lot of those books relegated to storage, or the high shelves labeled "old racist shit". Or some other place of shame amongst the stacks.

We can afford to hoard information, even the shitty shit. It just pays to well classify it as such, too.
 

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Hearing someone complain about the peril of witch hunts while more or less inventing an enemy out of whole cloth and claiming to find them everywhere is an additional layer of irony for this thread.

Let's have an eye rolling competition to see who can out-roll the other one because we think the other person can't see the irony of their statement.
 

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If you have a problem with the American anthem, this planet is not for you.
What an utterly ridiculous and ignorant thing to say. Francis Scott Key shoved a dictionary and a lot of punctuation into a terribly sick pig, and then gathered up what was blown out the rear end of said pig to tell the story of our getting our butts whooped in the War of 1812 and put it to an impossible to sing acoustic harmony of a drinking song. The thing has several verses that no one knows. It is awful! It is so bad, the only good thing about it was it inspired this moment.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxHnXajIex4[/YOUTUBE]

American the Beautiful is sweet, to the point, easy to sing, and gets us from the beginning to the end without needing a water break.
God Bless America is self-serving, but checks most of the boxes. The Flyers' had Kate Smith perform God Bless America, not the Star Spangled Banner... and it is an icon moment for Philadelphia Flyers' history.

I didn't say it's perfect. The last line of my post sums up my reply. All the other national anthems are worse.

National anthems are problematic. It just seems to be a thing. By comparison the American one is the least tainted IMHO
 

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So the fact that there is systematic oppression does not justify....being aware of such systematic oppression (It's racism, btw. We can just say it's racism.) and acknowledging that systemic oppression (AKA systemic racism) exists? We're supposed to stick our heads in the sand and call our dark skinned friends the N word and act like it's all cool....

It's wrong to be 'wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism?' So, we're supposed to just be cool with racism and sexism, if it's not too egregious? If it doesn't offend our sensibilities? Because it doesn't matter to cool dudes such as yourself that racism and sexism harms real live people?

Because....conservatives might be offended?

It's ok to offend and harm people negatively affected by sexism and racism but it's not OK to offend....conservatives?


You mean: conservatives such as yourself, right?

All very valid points.

Thanks for reminding me why I put Toni on ignore.

Here she clearly creates a dichotomy where the only two options are to be woke or to be FOR racism. As if there are no other positions.

I think conservatives should be offended as much as possible. I think conservatives are silly, have a ridiculously simplistic view of the world, their might makes right view of things is destructive. I believe a society should be judged on it's ability to take care of its weakest members.

I think Marx was right about most things. His analysis of structural oppression is right on the money. And is a much smarter model for understanding structural oppression than CRT in spite of predating it with over a hundred years. Any marker of poverty, or lack of power, will single you out as somebody those with influence and wealth, are less likely to invest in. ANY. And it's self reinforcing.

Policy's intended on lifting up marginalized groups are great. But only if the policy actually fits the job they're intended to fix.

I think wokes doesn't really want to fix racism and sexism. I think it's just something they say to get popularity points. It's activism reduced to 100% theatre. It's like they feel that slapping each other on the back for tear jerker statements is doing something useful. They want to look like being good people, rather than actually being good people. They've completely confused those two positions IMHO.

I have Toni on ignore because I rarely feels she takes the time to understand what I'm saying. I think she has a black and white way of seeing the world, and looks for non-PC trigger words rather than trying to understand the meaning. She often ends up putting me in boxes, (like this time) that I don't fit into and too often expects me to defend positions I have never held.

I am a left liberal. I'm against woke because I think it damages the liberal progressive march and will lead to a conservative backlash and a less liberal future. I think woke will lead to more racism and sexism. Nobody is ever served by simplifying a complicated problem to the point where acting on it according to that simplified view will make the problem worse.
 

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It is already happening;

Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.

While the above seems absolutely indefensible to me, and I in no way endorse it, inquisition it aint...
"Where they burn books, they will in the end also burn people." - Heinrich Heine

You guys sound 'woke'. I'm seeing some definition 1 and definition 10 in your posts. Maybe a bit of 11, too.

woke

/wōk/

1. aware of, and concerned about, social issues such as racism and social justice

2. smugly arrogant, fatuous, and overbearing, especially when expounding on the topic of social justice

3. people who call out people who are too lazy to even try to remember correct names and terms aka Miss Manners wannabes

4. white arrogance

5. a cynical power tactic for gaining status.

6. members of a group engaged in public shaming and mob violence

7. a dog whistle term used to disparage liberals protesting racism

8. moralism

9. witch hunts

10. virtue signaling

11. political theatre
 

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Tarrantino on woke

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-XevURCBpw&t=241s[/YOUTUBE]

Here's an other perspective on woke, which I thought was interesting.

It's Quentin Tarrantino talking about political correctness and cinema.

To paraphrase he's saying that the 80'ies were more woke than it is now. Which I agree with. I was young then. But I remember the relentless, shameless and often embarrassingly over the top virtue signaling that was going on. Often by rich people clearly having become wealthy by rising through the ranks of the old system. White performers making statements about the need to stop racism and then whenever they got onto a stage, they'd shamelessly nudge all the blacks into the background and take centre stage. It was all talk. The age of tokenism. Grandmother guilted us when we didn't eat up by telling us to think about the children in Africa.

The 80'ies PC culture was also a result of a similar movement as the current woke culture. It was based on Foucault, Derrida and deconstructionism. Words used by a lot of people who didn't know what any of it meant, but they knew that by saying them, they would show the world they were good people.

The 80'ies PC culture ended in a very good way. It gave rise to the cynicism of the 90'ies. Decadence became the ideal. Youth, beauty and wealth became ideals in a way that were completely unrealistic. Fantasy became the ideal. It was the age of supermodels. People were so sick of trying to be authentic and to understand structural oppression that they instead wanted the fake. Kids ate MDMA and ran around in hedonistic techno temples. Being straight was boring. Being bisexual was much cooler. It became a catalyst for new art and new philosophy. We stopped caring who got offended. Or rather, it was a new kind of punk, where we tried to offend. This was the world of the rise of Pride and the LGBT movement. This was the time when Hollywood stopped just talking about having more blacks in movies, (80'ies) and instead gave them leading roles.

I was very much a part of the 90'ies youth culture.

Anyway... so perhaps the inevitable reaction to woke isn't neo-conservatism. Perhaps we'll get a new 90'ies, ie neo-punk. Come to think of it, the original punk movement, wasn't that a reaction to all the naive wide-eyed love-the-world hippie nonsense?

It's a nice thought, and perhaps a reminder not to think that my apocalyptic vision of the world is the only, or even more likely outcome. The Zeitgeist can often progress in unpredictable ways.

Woke still fucking sucks. I hope it dies soon.
 

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Yes, you prove that this nothingness called "woke" is just the latest Pavlov bell that has replaced "political correctness".

I love Tarrantino and find external limitations on artists like him repulsive. The left respects artistic integrity, not the right.

This is just a tiny minority of nutty people doing it.

As opposed to the widespread insanity of the well trained dogs barking about "wokeness" on command.
 

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Awe look, it's another take on history from a white person's point of view. Don't yall have enough of that already? Gosh.

Edit: Removed Curse :D

Well... the interview isn't about woke or PC in general. It's about Tarantino and his work in particular. He is white. So sure. What other perspective should he have? This is also an excerpt from a longer interview. I'm sure they also talked about other stuff as well.

I'm not seeing Tarantino as a hero of the downtrodden. It's more like he spearheaded an inevitable reaction to the 80'ies woke movement. But if it hadn't been him, it'd been somebody else. A lot of people were so sick of PC back then. Me included. I didn't understand I was. But my values I had then, was a result of that. PC culture was suffocating. It killed every ability to show an authentic feeling. So we didn't even try. We instead tried being as fake as possible. Pushed PC beyond a point where it became a surrealist joke.

That said, one of my teenage heroes, Spike Lee. He's super politically correct and super woke. Has been all the time. His rise to fame was because of the PC culture of the 80'ies. The PC culture, in all it's suffocating fakery, served him well. The 80'ies gave him a voice and a platform he wouldn't otherwise have had.

This just shows structural racism in action. To put it simply, if you are black and you want to rise in Hollywood, you have to play the PC/woke game or you won't stand a chance. While non-woke directors are effectively blocked from any platform.

PC/Woke blacks are safe and harmless. Because we know what they will say. They will say the current acceptable inflammatory PC things against the current approved targets. White people pretend to care. We get to feel good about ourselves. Nothing changes.

Do we have famous non-woke directors?

If the blacks we allow to speak are in a neutered PC prison, we have done them no favours. The world is just a racist. Until blacks can say and do things that make progressive white people squirm uncomfortably in their seats and the blacks get to keep their jobs, we have have had little progress.

We have put Spike Lee in a Catch-22 position. He's successful and famous because he's PC. If he wasn't PC he wouldn't have gotten anywhere. He's not free to voice any opinion. Woke is fake freedom and superficial black empowerment. I still think Spike Lee is awesome. But we will only let him speak if he keeps to the party line.

I would love to hear black voices speaking freely on this. But I don't think our culture (not just USA) would allow them.

Or to put it another way, no way in hell a black director could have done Reservoir Dogs in 1991. Because of structural racism.

That's what I think.
 

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I was Born in the U.S.A. but live elsewhere now, and am out-of-touch. I'm not sure what "Wokism" is, or why it's so dreadful. It would be nice to see some real-world examples of Wokism from opinion-makers. Just so I know what we're talking about.

I heard that I saw it on Mulberry Street is now out-of-print, and that saddened me a bit. But surely there are better examples if Wokism is really such a problem.

I read through the first 100 posts in this thread, hoping to find an example. Here are the closest the thread came to specific examples:
The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.
One reason "Indians" has fallen into disfavor is because that term is often used to describe people from ... (did you guess?) ... India. I will file this example under pointless and silly.

You remind me of feminists who has the answer "it's the patriarchy" to whatever they don't like.

Their noisy, smug, self righteousness is sometimes insufferable. While I recognize that not all Wokesters are like that, enough are to give me a tendency to use Woke as a derogatory.
...
If empathetic and civilized behavior was all there was to Woke, I'd be all about it. But it isn't. Not in my long experience.
Tom
Many Americans are obnoxious, one way or another. It's fair to say that many anti-Wokesters are noisy, smug, self righteousness, sometimes insufferably so.

We had pride here in Copenhagen last week. The city was covered in rainbow flags.
I clicked on Facebook's "rainbowize your profile picture" after both my sisters did. Am I Woke?

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.
These have also been called luxury beliefs, as material items no longer distinguish the rich from the poor.
In addition to what you just said, these beliefs are also heavily taught in liberal institutions. And today there are far too many over educated people competing for too few good paying jobs. These people really can't brag about their money or their penis size (which they really don't have that much of anyway) so they brag to each other about what they learned in school.
Woke means bragging about one's education?

You've characterised woke as entirely pretentious and insincere and concerned solely with improving one's own esteem, but that is definitely not the impression I get from reading Politesse's posts. I see the opposite: Politesse's posts indicate he's a academic who takes his subject matter seriously and has genuine interest in understanding people. You yourself advocate for the tolerance of ignorance, but it should be obvious that this is totally incompatible with the pursuit of knowledge. I certainly would not expect a serious academic to be willing to let ignorant statements about society and human nature go unchallenged.

I've seen a few conservatives boast online that they are the ones feeding and clothing the homeless, but at the same time, those same people oppose more ambitious projects that would actually put people in houses and buy food for themselves. Those more ambitious projects are typically characterised as left-wing policies, because government assumes the community's responsibility to look after the poor. Do these conservatives feel like they are being robbed of an opportunity to be charitable? Do they disagree with who exactly government is helping? I don't really understand the attitude.

I think you'll find that progressives do practical things to help as well, but you're probably looking in the wrong places. Progressives are more likely to make practical help their full time occupation. For an example specific to homelessness, there are social workers whose full time job is to find vulnerable people a place to live and a job, and they work within a network of other people whose full time job is providing for people's wellbeing and future. Mind you, you might not meet these people if your social calendar finds you mixing with pretentious wankers at art exhibitions.
So, many of the Woke are sincere and caring.

The first 100 posts include the same request from me that I'm repeating now:
Within Islamism and Wokism leadership is mostly just about parroting popular slogans while having policies utterly devoid of any substance. It's leaders are more concerned about just staying in power for its own sake rather than doing anything worthwhile with that power. They must surely know everything out of their mouth is disingenuous. At this point it's all utter fantasy.

Examples please. Are there Americans spouting "wokism" disingenuously to stay in power? Who are they, and what are examples of their wokist nonsense?

My post got only one response:
Examples please. Are there Americans spouting "wokism" disingenuously to stay in power? Who are they, and what are examples of their wokist nonsense?

"Them". They are the ones doing it. For fuck's sake, haven't you been paying attention in this thread? "They" are being too "woke" and are evil because of reasons. It's so fucking simple I'm almost embarrassed for you that you don't get it.

I believe "Wokism" is probably real, but I want to wrap my head around it with important and useful examples. But until I see some better examples, I will assume that all the prattle about "Wokism" is just more nonsense from the Hannity-Carlson Bullshit Machine.
 

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Or in other words, "any white person who applies the term to any other person is arrogant", to the extent that a westerner calling themselves a medicine man in front of First Peoples deserves the slap, social or physical, they are about to receive.
 

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Awe look, it's another take on history from a white person's point of view. Don't yall have enough of that already? Gosh.

Edit: Removed Curse :D

Well... the interview isn't about woke or PC in general. It's about Tarantino and his work in particular. He is white. So sure. What other perspective should he have? This is also an excerpt from a longer interview. I'm sure they also talked about other stuff as well.

I'm not seeing Tarantino as a hero of the downtrodden. It's more like he spearheaded an inevitable reaction to the 80'ies woke movement. But if it hadn't been him, it'd been somebody else. A lot of people were so sick of PC back then. Me included. I didn't understand I was. But my values I had then, was a result of that. PC culture was suffocating. It killed every ability to show an authentic feeling. So we didn't even try. We instead tried being as fake as possible. Pushed PC beyond a point where it became a surrealist joke.

That said, one of my teenage heroes, Spike Lee. He's super politically correct and super woke. Has been all the time. His rise to fame was because of the PC culture of the 80'ies. The PC culture, in all it's suffocating fakery, served him well. The 80'ies gave him a voice and a platform he wouldn't otherwise have had.

This just shows structural racism in action. To put it simply, if you are black and you want to rise in Hollywood, you have to play the PC/woke game or you won't stand a chance. While non-woke directors are effectively blocked from any platform.

PC/Woke blacks are safe and harmless. Because we know what they will say. They will say the current acceptable inflammatory PC things against the current approved targets. White people pretend to care. We get to feel good about ourselves. Nothing changes.

Do we have famous non-woke directors?

If the blacks we allow to speak are in a neutered PC prison, we have done them no favours. The world is just a racist. Until blacks can say and do things that make progressive white people squirm uncomfortably in their seats and the blacks get to keep their jobs, we have have had little progress.

We have put Spike Lee in a Catch-22 position. He's successful and famous because he's PC. If he wasn't PC he wouldn't have gotten anywhere. He's not free to voice any opinion. Woke is fake freedom and superficial black empowerment. I still think Spike Lee is awesome. But we will only let him speak if he keeps to the party line.

I would love to hear black voices speaking freely on this. But I don't think our culture (not just USA) would allow them.

Or to put it another way, no way in hell a black director could have done Reservoir Dogs in 1991. Because of structural racism.

That's what I think.

Can you tell me what the definition of PC is to you so that I may re-read what you wrote with that in mind?
 

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This style of mocking and holier-than-thou antipathy towards the idea of being “woke” to the needs, concerns and pain of others is interesting to behold. It is a repeated poke-poke-poke to agitate and keep agitated to make sure that those who care about justice and the well being of others know that they are mocked and disdained by a few dominance-fetishers who think care is a weakness. It’s the equivalent of the schoolyard bully who constantly bumps and pushes those they deem “weaker” and calls them “fag” or “pussy.”

It manifests here on TFT as this constant barrage of posts by a very small number of posters repeating the same shallow insults over and over. “Wokester.” “Virtue Signaling.” It used to include “PC” as an insult. See how I disdain your care for others. See how weak I think you are. See how I can knock your schoolbooks out of your hand onto the hallway floor and you won’t do it back to me? That means I’m powerful. That means I’m alpha. In my head, anyway.


When a discussion in one of these threads directs towards why compassion is valuable, and why being aware and supportive of the lived experiences of others is not something people are ashamed of, the schoolyard-style bullies keep name-calling for a while, then drop it, and go start another thread with their current mocking words; they run to another student and knock over their books and stand around with their chest out thinking everyone admires their “strength” and dominance.


So - yeah yeah yeah. Wokester. Virtue Signalling. PC run amok.


I am **GLAD** to be awake to the realities of others. I was insulated for so long not realizing what my world was like for others.
I am **GLAD** to signal to others what virtues I find important; among them care, concern, justice
I am **GLAD** to know what language hurts, and avoid it in favor of lannguage that doesn’t hurt. Hooray for Politically Correct norms.

And I’ll keep thinking this next week, when I watch the bullies again posture and preen with their displays of mocking and disdain, their acts of dominance-seeking where they try to knock others down so they can feel strong and worthwhile. And I’ll keep thinking, “how sad is that. They have to work so hard to feel worthwhile. They never feel content and loved. Gotta shove people to the ground so they can feel tall. No one taught them how to build to feel big, they only learned how to destroy others. And they don’t even realize that no one looks at that display and thinks they are powerful. Or - maybe they do know that, but they only know one way to feel powerful and they just have to keep using it, even while they know it doesn’t work.”


I know this and other posts will continue to sprout up. Mock the caring, disdain cooperative aspirations. Try to sell dominance as the only virtue. Beat the chest. Howl the monkey howls.

The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on.
 

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I was Born in the U.S.A. but live elsewhere now, and am out-of-touch. I'm not sure what "Wokism" is, or why it's so dreadful. It would be nice to see some real-world examples of Wokism from opinion-makers. Just so I know what we're talking about.

The problem is that the word is vague.

The first two meanings in post 439 are both accurate. And it's hard to draw any lines in there.

In a way, it's like the label "Christian". There's no clear meaning. Anybody can call themselves that. But those who don't self identify as Christian are less likely to know the majority of perfectly nice Christian people. Mostly they hear about the assholish ones who are really noisy and self centered. The kind who will scream about gay marriage destroying the family, while they're working on their third divorce.
Tom
 
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