Women Aren't Leaders

[rousseau]

It is strange but I think women have a harder time with women leaders idea than men do.

A lot of women don't think that. So you may be making an error in your conclusion. Maybe men think that women think that?

Also, women hold grudges a lot longer, over trivial things. I've seen guys in fist fights and two days later all is forgiven. Meanwhile women can hold hatred for tens years because one didn't say hello one morning.

(Just like Trump, right? he forgives as soo.... nm)

I don't agree this, I don't think the evidence supports this as a gendered trend.

Moreover, I don't think it's wise to make sweeping generalizations about any group of people. In my post a few posts up I used words like 'people' and 'good' female leaders because both men and women are a diverse bunch.

 

[Gun Nut]

It is strange but I think women have a harder time with women leaders idea than men do.

A lot of women don't think that. So you may be making an error in your conclusion. Maybe men think that women think that?

Also, women hold grudges a lot longer, over trivial things. I've seen guys in fist fights and two days later all is forgiven. Meanwhile women can hold hatred for tens years because one didn't say hello one morning.

(Just like Trump, right? he forgives as soo.... nm)

I don't agree this, I don't think the evidence supports this as a gendered trend.

The study showed that both males and females almost unanimously depicted males as leaders.
In my personal experience, women are FAR more concerned with other women making decisions that affect them than other men making those decisions.
up until very recently, all women hated most other women far more frequently than hating any other man.. again, in my experience.
Ask your female spouse or closest friend who in their day to day lives (people they actually interact with) they hate. I wager 100% of them are females.

 

[Jokodo]

A lot of women don't think that. So you may be making an error in your conclusion. Maybe men think that women think that?



(Just like Trump, right? he forgives as soo.... nm)

I don't agree this, I don't think the evidence supports this as a gendered trend.

The study showed that both males and females almost unanimously depicted males as leaders.
In my personal experience, women are FAR more concerned with other women making decisions that affect them than other men making those decisions.
up until very recently, all women hated most other women far more frequently than hating any other man.. again, in my experience.
Ask your female spouse or closest friend who in their day to day lives (people they actually interact with) they hate. I wager 100% of them are females.

I'm almost positive Rhea has an even easier way to work out what art least some women think than asking her spouse or friend.

 

[Toni]

Maybe it is in the understanding of the word "leadership". In my family get togethers of aunts, uncles, cousins, grand parents, the uncontested "leader" of the gathering was my aunt Eloise (who had replaced one of my grandmothers after the grandmother got too feeble). I think that the "leader" of everyone's family gatherings will generally be a female matriarch. OTOH, when people think of a "leader" they generally mean the head of a group of unrelated people.

This is a good point.. one's own biases as to what the word leader means. I can see how a leader in government versus a leader in the home would be viewed totally differently.

My in-laws have an interesting dynamic where there is a matriarch except when there is one particular uncle that sort of takes over social family gatherings. It's like there is an Operational leader - a woman, and a social leader - a man.

Women are often seen as the authorities/deciders with respects to the aesthetics of a home, as well as cleanliness, organization, children and childrearing, and so on. It's less common that they are regarded as authorities/deciders on the finances of a home. Women are generally seen as proper authorities within a classroom. People get more pissy when a woman is the principal or superintendent. Or governor. Or POTUS.

 

[southernhybrid]

A lot of women don't think that. So you may be making an error in your conclusion. Maybe men think that women think that?



(Just like Trump, right? he forgives as soo.... nm)

I don't agree this, I don't think the evidence supports this as a gendered trend.

The study showed that both males and females almost unanimously depicted males as leaders.
In my personal experience, women are FAR more concerned with other women making decisions that affect them than other men making those decisions.
up until very recently, all women hated most other women far more frequently than hating any other man.. again, in my experience.
Ask your female spouse or closest friend who in their day to day lives (people they actually interact with) they hate. I wager 100% of them are females.

I have worked almost exclusively with women my entire working life, and all of my bosses were women. I've had excellent female bosses and terrible female bosses. My husband, now a retired engineer worked primarily with men his entire working life. All of his bosses and managers were males. He has had a few really good male bosses and more than a few horrible, vindictive, male bosses. One of the worst ones owned the company that brought us to Georgia. He was a hateful monster, who treated his staff as if they were his slaves.

I have worked with a few hateful nurses. They hated me because I worked much more efficiently than them, and also because I've always been open about my atheism at work. The two most hateful coworkers were fundamentalist Christians. But, they weren't my bosses and I doubt their attitude was due to their gender. It was due to their personalities. I've worked with other conservative Christian women who were very tolerant of me, knowing full well that I'm an atheist. That includes both coworkers and women in leadership positions. It has nothing to do with gender.

Men can hold grudges as easily as women. That is one reason why my ex husband is my ex. My current spouse and I decided when we married almost 40 years ago, that we would never hold a grudge and we never have. So, I strongly disagree with your assumptions about women and female leaders. Have you asked Angela Merkel if she can't do her job due to her gender? Germans sure seem to think that she's been a good leader for a long time. It is harder for women to obtain leadership positions as long as sexism is so common. As far as women not wanting to vote for a woman, I think that is partially true of women who are from the so called greatest generation. I imagine they were indoctrinated to believe that only a male could lead the US. But, even at that, I've knew quite a few women in their late 80s, who voted for Hillary in the 2016 election, so your generalizations are a bit exaggerated imo.

I don't hate any women, not a single one. In fact, I even love my one Trump supporting nurse friend. I feel sorry for her as she has numerous personal problems, but I'm able to see her for her good qualities and not dwell on the fact that she's been brainwashed by her religion. So, I find it rather disappointing that you would generalize about how women feel about each other. I always prefer the company of female friends, with the exception of my husband, of course. I have male friends who I like, but I feel more comfortable around my female friends.

I will say this. Sometimes women aren't as supportive of each other as we should be. We need to learn to be more like bonobos and less like chimps. When women unite, we can be an incredible force. So watch out!

 

[ronburgundy]

It's highly probable that some of this result is from deep-seeded centuries of sexism and subjugation of females. However, some of it may be tied to something as simple as physical size and associations of social rank with physical strength in our primal brain.

Deciding on leadership via means other than physical conflict is a relatively recent phenomena in the mammal world. I bet most kids also picture "leaders" as larger than average. You can't really determine that from the kind of drawings in the OP article b/c there is no stable reference point to judge size. But have kids pick a "leader" from a bunch of drawn people who vary in size, independent of other factors, and I bet they pick the larger people most of the time. Since men are usually larger, that would be one factor favoring men as the default "leader".

 

[ronburgundy]

Here is an relevant interesting PEW survey on how people view male and female leaders. Below is just one interesting result that contradicts Gun Nut's claim that most women have a bigger problem with women leaders.

It shows that both sexes are biased in favor of leaders of their own sex. However, the bias is even stronger among women. You can use the shown #s to calculate the % of women who think women have a superior approach is 17% (27% of 63%), but only 11% (22% of 50%) of men think men have a superior approach. Among Dems and Republicans the bias also opposite but closer in size, with 17% of Dems thinking women leaders are superior and 15% of Republicans thinking men are superior.

Granted these numbers are probably biased by the fact that it is generally more socially acceptable today to openly admit to a pro-female bias than a pro-male bias. Women are still a small % of leaders, so favoring women is favoring the underdog. So, the % of males and % of Republicans who actually have a pro-male leader bias is probably higher than these #s show, which presume honest uncensored responding.

 

[Gun Nut]

Thank you, southernhybrid... To be clear, I am not saying that women can not be leaders or are not leaders.. I am only hosting the discussion about the article and offering observations. I appreciate your contribution.

I will say this. Sometimes women aren't as supportive of each other as we should be. We need to learn to be more like bonobos and less like chimps. When women unite, we can be an incredible force. So watch out!

When men get together socially, they call each other, "Boss".. "Chief".. "Brother"... "You the MAN! NO.. YOU the MAN"

When women get together socially, they call each other, "Bitches".. "Slut"..

Maybe start with that?

 

[Gun Nut]

Here is an relevant interesting PEW survey on how people view male and female leaders. Below is just one interesting result that contradicts Gun Nut's claim that most women have a bigger problem with women leaders.

Well, I certainly wasn't doing science when I commented on and characterized my own observations on the topic. I'm just one data point.

Granted these numbers are probably biased by the fact that it is generally more socially acceptable today to openly admit to a pro-female bias than a pro-male bias. Women are still a small % of leaders, so favoring women is favoring the underdog. So, the % of males and % of Republicans who actually have a pro-male leader bias is probably higher than these #s show, which presume honest uncensored responding.

.. and it seems that maybe these are not so good data points, then...

 

[southernhybrid]

Thank you, southernhybrid... To be clear, I am not saying that women can not be leaders or are not leaders.. I am only hosting the discussion about the article and offering observations. I appreciate your contribution.

I will say this. Sometimes women aren't as supportive of each other as we should be. We need to learn to be more like bonobos and less like chimps. When women unite, we can be an incredible force. So watch out!

When men get together socially, they call each other, "Boss".. "Chief".. "Brother"... "You the MAN! NO.. YOU the MAN"

When women get together socially, they call each other, "Bitches".. "Slut"..

Maybe start with that?

Was that serious or were you joking? When southern women get together, we call each other honey, or sweetheart. And, black southern women usually refer to female friends as love or baby. I have a few black friends that have called me love or baby. I don't remember even being around women who called each other bitches or sluts. If you're not joking, is this a generational thing or a regional thing?

My husband said that when men get together, they call each other bud or by their names. ( I just asked him ) I thought Bro was urban slang term, mostly a black man thing. Or have white men appropriated the term too.

But seriously, my female friends have never referred to each other or any woman as a bitch or slut. There have been a few times when we might refer to some hateful woman as a bitch once in awhile when gossiping, but I've never heard anyone use the term slut to refer to another woman. And, to be honest, most of the women I know don't use the term bitch to describe another woman. And slut? Are you serious? That term is so old school and foreign sounding to me. Is this a regional thing, maybe?

Maybe I just have too much class to think of other women in the way you've described. Do you honestly know women who talk that way to and about each other?

Now that I think about it, it's the men who are often sluts. As a woman I promise you that is true. Otherwise, we wouldn't have to deal with getting hit on by those sluts throughout our lives. Yes. Well into old age, women get hit on by male sluts. Okay. I'm going a bit off topic. Sorry about that......

 

[Toni]

Thank you, southernhybrid... To be clear, I am not saying that women can not be leaders or are not leaders.. I am only hosting the discussion about the article and offering observations. I appreciate your contribution.

I will say this. Sometimes women aren't as supportive of each other as we should be. We need to learn to be more like bonobos and less like chimps. When women unite, we can be an incredible force. So watch out!

When men get together socially, they call each other, "Boss".. "Chief".. "Brother"... "You the MAN! NO.. YOU the MAN"

When women get together socially, they call each other, "Bitches".. "Slut"..

Maybe start with that?

Maybe watch less reality tv? Because that's not a world I've ever witnessed or been part of. Ever.

 

[ronburgundy]

Here is an relevant interesting PEW survey on how people view male and female leaders. Below is just one interesting result that contradicts Gun Nut's claim that most women have a bigger problem with women leaders.

Well, I certainly wasn't doing science when I commented on and characterized my own observations on the topic. I'm just one data point.

You didn't just describe your own observations. You predicted that "100%" of women would conform to your experience that women have a bigger problem with other women. I know your prediction wasn't based upon science or upon any rational thinking about how your own experience relates to general reality.

 

[Rhea]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN
It is strange but I think women have a harder time with women leaders idea than men do

.

A lot of women don't think that. So you may be making an error in your conclusion. Maybe men think that women think that?

The study showed that both males and females almost unanimously depicted males as leaders.

for this record, this conflicts with Oldman's claim, that men will more easily accept a female leader than women will.

In my personal experience, women are FAR more concerned with other women making decisions that affect them than other men making those decisions.
up until very recently, all women hated most other women far more frequently than hating any other man.. again, in my experience.

You're absolutely off your rocker here. It is unequivocal that women do not, in general (and certainly not "all women") have more male friends than female ones.

Ask your female spouse or closest friend who in their day to day lives (people they actually interact with) they hate. I wager 100% of them are females.

Was this intended to be funny? I mean, if so, HA HA.

If it was intended to be serious - I have a male spouse, because I'm a woman.
I have more female friends than male friends.
Also, I'm over 50 years old, so I have a good bit of anecdotal evidence.
Moreover, I'm a woman manager.
Who works for a woman.
Whose second level boss is also a woman.
We are all female engineers in a male-dominated field.
I have both men and women working for me.
I have worked for both men and women.
I'm active in the Society of Women Engineers, as well as other non-gendered professional societies.
I am active particularly in the field of career guidance to my professional peers.

So thanks for the man-splainin' to this women who REGULARLY talks to women about the workplace, this woman who wrote a paper on and held seminars for women in the workplace.
May I suggest that my sample size is a shitload bigger and more scientific than yours?
You could learn something.

 

[Rhea]

Thank you, southernhybrid... To be clear, I am not saying that women can not be leaders or are not leaders.. I am only hosting the discussion about the article and offering observations. I appreciate your contribution.

I will say this. Sometimes women aren't as supportive of each other as we should be. We need to learn to be more like bonobos and less like chimps. When women unite, we can be an incredible force. So watch out!

When men get together socially, they call each other, "Boss".. "Chief".. "Brother"... "You the MAN! NO.. YOU the MAN"

When women get together socially, they call each other, "Bitches".. "Slut"..

Maybe start with that?

What???
How often are you among women who do this? You need new friends.

 

[Toni]

Thank you, southernhybrid... To be clear, I am not saying that women can not be leaders or are not leaders.. I am only hosting the discussion about the article and offering observations. I appreciate your contribution.

I will say this. Sometimes women aren't as supportive of each other as we should be. We need to learn to be more like bonobos and less like chimps. When women unite, we can be an incredible force. So watch out!

When men get together socially, they call each other, "Boss".. "Chief".. "Brother"... "You the MAN! NO.. YOU the MAN"

When women get together socially, they call each other, "Bitches".. "Slut"..

Maybe start with that?

Was that serious or were you joking? When southern women get together, we call each other honey, or sweetheart. And, black southern women usually refer to female friends as love or baby. I have a few black friends that have called me love or baby. I don't remember even being around women who called each other bitches or sluts. If you're not joking, is this a generational thing or a regional thing?

My husband said that when men get together, they call each other bud or by their names. ( I just asked him ) I thought Bro was urban slang term, mostly a black man thing. Or have white men appropriated the term too.

But seriously, my female friends have never referred to each other or any woman as a bitch or slut. There have been a few times when we might refer to some hateful woman as a bitch once in awhile when gossiping, but I've never heard anyone use the term slut to refer to another woman. And, to be honest, most of the women I know don't use the term bitch to describe another woman. And slut? Are you serious? That term is so old school and foreign sounding to me. Is this a regional thing, maybe?

Maybe I just have too much class to think of other women in the way you've described. Do you honestly know women who talk that way to and about each other?

Now that I think about it, it's the men who are often sluts. As a woman I promise you that is true. Otherwise, we wouldn't have to deal with getting hit on by those sluts throughout our lives. Yes. Well into old age, women get hit on by male sluts. Okay. I'm going a bit off topic. Sorry about that......

nm

 

[fromderinside]

What she writes is true Toni. Acquaintance of mine back in the day of pop canning in Portland after tour in Navy, 1965, suggested we hit senior dance centers to pick up mature, very mature, ancient, women. I'll bet he, if he's still with us 55 years on, is doing so to this very day.

In fact this is such a common tendency among male sluts that because of him and my dad, 15 years older than my mom, are probably why bride and I are the same age.

 

[Gun Nut]

Thank you, southernhybrid... To be clear, I am not saying that women can not be leaders or are not leaders.. I am only hosting the discussion about the article and offering observations. I appreciate your contribution.

I will say this. Sometimes women aren't as supportive of each other as we should be. We need to learn to be more like bonobos and less like chimps. When women unite, we can be an incredible force. So watch out!

When men get together socially, they call each other, "Boss".. "Chief".. "Brother"... "You the MAN! NO.. YOU the MAN"

When women get together socially, they call each other, "Bitches".. "Slut"..

Maybe start with that?

What???
How often are you among women who do this? You need new friends.

I think it was Tina Fey that my wife and I were watching who made that observation. We thought it was hilarious... alot of people think she's hilarious... and a good comic. because random things that have no bearing on reality are so funny . Maybe it's a regional thing.

 

[Elixir]

Draw a picture of a leader

Maybe it's just my Welsh heritage, but...

 

[Toni]

What???
How often are you among women who do this? You need new friends.

I think it was Tina Fey that my wife and I were watching who made that observation. We thought it was hilarious... alot of people think she's hilarious... and a good comic. because random things that have no bearing on reality are so funny . Maybe it's a regional thing.

OMG You really think that women talk to and about each other like fictional rich high school girl characters in Mean Girls?

 

[fromderinside]

Testimonial

My daughter, a born leader, 30 years ago blew off being a Songleader when one of the members told her she should consider it an honor to be invited to a party by a football player at Taft HS in Woodland Hills CA. Only two joined her. Sometimes refusing Male Kool Aide is pretty hard. Definite born leader.

Yeah she's from the same valley where Malls actually become Totally Tubular at christmas, where the Valley Girl originated. Oh and there are earthquakes there. The Valley is poster child for calling the seasons Fire, Flood, Earthquake, and Riot. Best place in the world to raise a brilliant, talented, strong minded, loving child.