Women's teams want equal pay

[Jolly_Penguin]

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/07/07/sp...ump/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

The US Women's National Team sealed the deal with its fourth stunning victory Sunday at the World Cup, but the players are still fighting another battle back home.

The soccer team's 2-0 victory against the Netherlands proved that the US women are still at the top of the game -- and, the athletes say, that they should be paid as equal to men.

If they want to be paid the same as the men, they should try out for the same teams that the men do and compete with the men. If they are discriminated against by gender and not allowed to try out for those teams, changing that that should be the issue.

And also, why in articles like this do we so rarely get stats on viewership, ticket sales, etc? If men's sports (or just "sports" if women are allowed to play with the men) sells more than "women's sports" then there SHOULD be a pay difference.

 

[RVonse]

I agree with you Jolly. Sometimes (in fact a lot of times) doing the same job does not equate to equal pay in the free market capitalistic system.

Taken to the extreme. A male porno star makes far far less than his companion female porn star even though they work the same hours and do exactly the same amount of work. And it is because their is more scarcity of female workers and more people wanting to view them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It sounds so progressive for you to say 'women should just play on the men's team to make the same money'.

Regardless, onto the money part... (for those that actually want to discuss facts)

Men's World Cup in Russia was about $6.1 billion.

According to FIFA financial documents reviewed by The New York Times, the 2018 World Cup that kicks off Thursday in Moscow is set to generate $6.1 billion in revenue — 10 percent more than FIFA had estimated for the tournament and $1.3 billion more than the last World Cup produced in 2014 in Brazil.

This Women's World Cup around $0.13 billion.

Meanwhile, the Women's World Cup is expected to earn $131 million for the full four-year cycle 2019-22 and dole out $30 million to the participating teams.

So more than a magnitude difference! The men's teams are awarded more money than the Women's World Cup generates in revenue, maybe three times more.

The Forbes article I cite notes as progressive savior Jolly Penguin almost says exactly, "The pay disparity is justified."

While one can certainly justify a pay disparity based on the enormous gulf between the revenues from the Men's and Women's World Cups, one must wonder if the magnitude of the gap in the disparity between the award is "justified". Yes, women get a larger slice of the revenue pie than the men do. Of course, Men's soccer has a rich history dating back to 19th Century and is about as established as can be... Women's soccer does not have this history to fall back on, especially for development (both domestically in nations with women's soccer and in emerging markets). And seeing the boatload of cash FIFA has to be enjoying, there is room to use the Men's World Cup to help bolster the Women's World Cup, if for no other reason... as an investment to make more money in the Women's World Cup.

 

[Playball40]

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/07/07/sp...ump/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

The US Women's National Team sealed the deal with its fourth stunning victory Sunday at the World Cup, but the players are still fighting another battle back home.

The soccer team's 2-0 victory against the Netherlands proved that the US women are still at the top of the game -- and, the athletes say, that they should be paid as equal to men.

If they want to be paid the same as the men, they should try out for the same teams that the men do and compete with the men. If they are discriminated against by gender and not allowed to try out for those teams, changing that that should be the issue.

And also, why in articles like this do we so rarely get stats on viewership, ticket sales, etc? If men's sports (or just "sports" if women are allowed to play with the men) sells more than "women's sports" then there SHOULD be a pay difference.

What a crock of shit. Why should they have to PLAY with men? They are playing the same game and playing it BETTER.

 

[cycomiko]

The first thought is just dumb and probably should've just been left off and you know it. Of course they won't try out for the same teams.

The second part is what's worth discussing. I completely agree that if one product brings in more revenue than the other (men's vs women's soccer) the pay gap is justified. However, the products must start from a level baseline to really make the comparison. If the US markets the women's team as much as it did the men's team that revenue difference between the two would begin to shrink even quicker than it already is. The 2015 Women's World Cup Final was the most watched soccer match, regardless of gender, in US history. Nike has announced that the women's jersey has become it's top selling soccer jersey of all time. There is probably more of a market for the women's team in the US than there is for the men's team because women's team actually wins tournaments.

The biggest issue I see when it comes to truly equal pay is that the women's game is just now starting to build momentum elsewhere in the world. Forever, it's been the USA vs everyone else and that's difficult for FIFA to market outside of the US and that explains why the World Cup prize pool is so small for the women's tournament. For instance, the men's team was awarded over $5mil for losing in the knockout round in 2015 but the women's team was given $1.7mil for winning the whole thing in 2015. Now that teams like England, Holland, Sweden, Norway, Germany, Japan, etc are starting to catch up in terms of quality and enthusiasm I expect the pay gap will continue to decrease until, eventually, the women in the US actually make more than the men. Unless, of course, the men start winning World Cups but that won't happen in my lifetime due to "pay to play" issues in our system but that's a separate topic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I agree with you Jolly. Sometimes (in fact a lot of times) doing the same job does not equate to equal pay in the free market capitalistic system.

Taken to the extreme. A male porno star makes far far less than his companion female porn star even though they work the same hours and do exactly the same amount of work. And it is because their is more scarcity of female workers and more people wanting to view them.

 

[ruby sparks]

For instance, the men's team was awarded over $5mil for losing in the knockout round in 2015 but the women's team was given $1.7mil for winning the whole thing in 2015.

I feel sure that at that time, many threads were started on this forum by men complaining about the blatant disparity.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Of course they won't try out for the same teams.

Tell that to Manon Rheaume, who played on male hockey teams, including in the NHL.

Why shouldn't women and men play on the same teams? I understand if it is a combat sport like boxing or MMA, or a sport with heavy direct physical contact like football, but for sports like baseball, golf, and to a large extent soccer, why shouldn't the men and women play on the same teams?

The second part is what's worth discussing. I completely agree that if one product brings in more revenue than the other (men's vs women's soccer) the pay gap is justified. However, the products must start from a level baseline to really make the comparison. If the US markets the women's team as much as it did the men's team that revenue difference between the two would begin to shrink even quicker than it already is. The 2015 Women's World Cup Final was the most watched soccer match, regardless of gender, in US history. Nike has announced that the women's jersey has become it's top selling soccer jersey of all time. There is probably more of a market for the women's team in the US than there is for the men's team because women's team actually wins tournaments.

These are fair points. Same goes for when Rhonda Rousey was top of MMA popularity. I don't know if she was paid as much or more than the men, but she should have been. Same goes for WWE, and even moreso maybe becuase that's not actually about physical competition, but about performance art. If Asuka and Becky Lynch are drawing in more audience, selling more merch and tickets etc, they should be paid not just as much as but more than men who sell less. In these combat sports, I do understand the division of men from women, and that brings up the transexual men-to-women who enter MMA and beat up women.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

I agree with you Jolly. Sometimes (in fact a lot of times) doing the same job does not equate to equal pay in the free market capitalistic system.

Taken to the extreme. A male porno star makes far far less than his companion female porn star even though they work the same hours and do exactly the same amount of work. And it is because their is more scarcity of female workers and more people wanting to view them.

Misogyny. It's not just a river in Alabama.

aa

 

[Toni]

I’m not certain how comparing the men’s vs the women’s World Cup total monies generated is pertinent. Pro soccer players are not paid the same from country to country, from team to team or even within teams.h The women are not asking to be paid what British Premiere league players are paid. They are asking to be paid what male MLS players are paid. They generate more income for the US soccer organization than the US men do and seriously out play and out win them. They certainly are generating a great deal more excitement for the sport among men and women in the US and are generating and inspiring a new pool of players and fans among young girls and women.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I agree with you Jolly. Sometimes (in fact a lot of times) doing the same job does not equate to equal pay in the free market capitalistic system.

It isn't the same job. If it was in the same league it would be the same job. Male and female porn stars are definitely not doing the same job either. They are taking different roles in entertainment. One is the main star and the other (the male) is basically used as a prop. Now, how about if a man transitions to a woman and has the surgery... and plays the female role in porn? Then it would be doing the same job.

 

[cycomiko]

Of course they won't try out for the same teams.

Tell that to Manon Rheaume, who played on male hockey teams, including in the NHL.

Why shouldn't women and men play on the same teams? I understand if it is a combat sport like boxing or MMA, or a sport with heavy direct physical contact like football, but for sports like baseball, golf, and to a large extent soccer, why shouldn't the men and women play on the same teams?

The second part is what's worth discussing. I completely agree that if one product brings in more revenue than the other (men's vs women's soccer) the pay gap is justified. However, the products must start from a level baseline to really make the comparison. If the US markets the women's team as much as it did the men's team that revenue difference between the two would begin to shrink even quicker than it already is. The 2015 Women's World Cup Final was the most watched soccer match, regardless of gender, in US history. Nike has announced that the women's jersey has become it's top selling soccer jersey of all time. There is probably more of a market for the women's team in the US than there is for the men's team because women's team actually wins tournaments.

These are fair points. Same goes for when Rhonda Rousey was top of MMA popularity. I don't know if she was paid as much or more than the men, but she should have been. Same goes for WWE, and even moreso maybe becuase that's not actually about physical competition, but about performance art. If Asuka and Becky Lynch are drawing in more audience, selling more merch and tickets etc, they should be paid not just as much as but more than men who sell less. In these combat sports, I do understand the division of men from women, and that brings up the transexual men-to-women who enter MMA and beat up women.

you're obviously not a soccer player. soccer is absolutely a contact sport and is far more violent than many people realize. if a woman can hang with the men physically then they should totally be allowed to at least try out. i've been playing soccer for 35 years now and i've had women play on my men's teams before and never had any issues. however, to say that women must play on the men's team in order to make the same amount of money is the dumb part of that statement. i think you know that and you were being obtuse to attempt to make a point but it's still silly.

i also struggle with the trans athlete topic in sports but that's beside the current point.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

you're obviously not a soccer player.

Correct. I am not a soccer player.

Soccer is absolutely a contact sport and is far more violent than many people realize.

But you can't body check against the boards like in hockey, right? Can't tackle the opponents like in football? I get that there is probably more direct physical contact than in say Gof, but then Golf also usually has women divided out. Why? Or has that changed now? I don't follow Golf hardly at all.

If a woman can hang with the men physically then they should totally be allowed to at least try out.

Absolutely. Is there a rule against it? Have any women tried it at the highest levels of competition?

I also struggle with the trans athlete topic in sports but that's beside the current point.

I have no problem with trans athletes in sports. It only becomes a problem when there is extreme physical contact (like in fighting sports) or arbitrary divisions of gendered teams. If a male-to-female transexual person wanted to play on the women's soccer team, would you oppose that? How about a team of mostly male-to-female transexual people to play in the women's division?

I also don't agree that trans in sports isn't on point to gendered teams. I think it is illustrative of problems with gendered teams. Also, what of non-gendered or gender binary or all those other genders the SJWs usually speak up for? Do they all cease to exist when it comes to gendered sports?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I’m not certain how comparing the men’s vs the women’s World Cup total monies generated is pertinent.

It is pertinent because an organization shouldn't be rewarding more money than they take in. Of course, this does come with an asterisk which I raise in my email. Now, I was talking about FIFA. If we are talking about the USSF, then things can be different... especially seeing the US Men's team didn't even qualify for the last World Cup!

According to this article, USSF makes about the same from men and women's soccer. Which, according to the most progressive people here, like Jolly Penguin, the women should be paid that same, if not more, by the USSF.

This article gives a few more details on the domestic leagues in the US. It should be noted that the MLS is a pyramid scheme. The NWSL struggles to survive as well.

 

[Toni]

I agree with you Jolly. Sometimes (in fact a lot of times) doing the same job does not equate to equal pay in the free market capitalistic system.

It isn't the same job. If it was in the same league it would be the same job. Male and female porn stars are definitely not doing the same job either. They are taking different roles in entertainment. One is the main star and the other (the male) is basically used as a prop. Now, how about if a man transitions to a woman and has the surgery... and plays the female role in porn? Then it would be doing the same job.

Actors typically command different pay for appearing in the same film, based on their ‘star power! —and gender. Typically men earn a great deal more then their female counterparts. There’s a lot of gender discrimination at work in all aspects of that industry. It’s telling that it was necessary to bring up porn in order to find an example of women being paid more than men ‘for the same job.’ Also telling that women as porn stars is brought into this discussion. Some people do really see women in only one role.

 

[Toni]

I’m not certain how comparing the men’s vs the women’s World Cup total monies generated is pertinent.

It is pertinent because an organization shouldn't be rewarding more money than they take in. Of course, this does come with an asterisk which I raise in my email. Now, I was talking about FIFA. If we are talking about the USSF, then things can be different... especially seeing the US Men's team didn't even qualify for the last World Cup!

According to this article, USSF makes about the same from men and women's soccer. Which, according to the most progressive people here, like Jolly Penguin, the women should be paid that same, if not more, by the USSF.

This article gives a few more details on the domestic leagues in the US. It should be noted that the MLS is a pyramid scheme. The NWSL struggles to survive as well.

Thank you. I hadn’t had time to link articles yet.

 

[cycomiko]

I’m not certain how comparing the men’s vs the women’s World Cup total monies generated is pertinent. Pro soccer players are not paid the same from country to country, from team to team or even within teams.h The women are not asking to be paid what British Premiere league players are paid. They are asking to be paid what male MLS players are paid. They generate more income for the US soccer organization than the US men do and seriously out play and out win them. They certainly are generating a great deal more excitement for the sport among men and women in the US and are generating and inspiring a new pool of players and fans among young girls and women.

If I recall correctly, the women actually take home a higher percentage of the prize money at big tournaments than the men do. I'd have to find those stats again to back that up but i'm fairly certain that's still the case. The issue is that the prize pool is much smaller for FIFA women's tournaments than those that the men play in. When the rest of the world catches up to the US, I believe it will be more profitable and therefore support much higher prize pools.

I think the current law suit by the USWNT is only regarding the national team pay and not NWSL vs MLS. I don't think NWSL and MLS are comparable. I view NWSL more in line with USL when it comes to money making ability. If my NWSL (Reign) team could fill the same stadium at the same price point as my MLS team (Sounders) then, hell yes, pay those ladies the same and fill Century Link. I just don't think the market is there even though I, personally, pay nearly equal attention to both leagues. Outside of the Pacific Northwest the soccer culture just doesn't seem as strong. If you ever get a chance to go to a Timbers vs Reign match, do it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I’m not certain how comparing the men’s vs the women’s World Cup total monies generated is pertinent. Pro soccer players are not paid the same from country to country, from team to team or even within teams.h The women are not asking to be paid what British Premiere league players are paid. They are asking to be paid what male MLS players are paid. They generate more income for the US soccer organization than the US men do and seriously out play and out win them. They certainly are generating a great deal more excitement for the sport among men and women in the US and are generating and inspiring a new pool of players and fans among young girls and women.

If I recall correctly, the women actually take home a higher percentage of the prize money at big tournaments than the men do. I'd have to find those stats again to back that up but i'm fairly certain that's still the case. The issue is that the prize pool is much smaller for FIFA women's tournaments than those that the men play in. When the rest of the world catches up to the US, I believe it will be more profitable and therefore support much higher prize pools.

I think the current law suit by the USWNT is only regarding the national team pay and not NWSL vs MLS. I don't think NWSL and MLS are comparable. I view NWSL more in line with USL when it comes to money making ability. If my NWSL (Reign) team could fill the same stadium at the same price point as my MLS team (Sounders) then, hell yes, pay those ladies the same and fill Century Link. I just don't think the market is there even though I, personally, pay nearly equal attention to both leagues. Outside of the Pacific Northwest the soccer culture just doesn't seem as strong. If you ever get a chance to go to a Timbers vs Reign match, do it.

Based on what I've read, the comparisons are tricky. More money is taken in through sponsorship than tournaments. But the WNT definitely are competitive nationally with the MNT when it comes to domestic bucks. The domestic leagues, though, women aren't paid much because the leagues haven't had much success. The MLS has survived based on a pyramid scheme of continually adding new franchises at higher and higher rates to balance the books. Decades in, the MLS has still not won a CONCACAF Champions League.

 

[Gun Nut]

I agree with you Jolly. Sometimes (in fact a lot of times) doing the same job does not equate to equal pay in the free market capitalistic system.

It isn't the same job. If it was in the same league it would be the same job. Male and female porn stars are definitely not doing the same job either. They are taking different roles in entertainment. One is the main star and the other (the male) is basically used as a prop. Now, how about if a man transitions to a woman and has the surgery... and plays the female role in porn? Then it would be doing the same job.

Actors typically command different pay for appearing in the same film, based on their ‘star power! —and gender. Typically men earn a great deal more then their female counterparts. There’s a lot of gender discrimination at work in all aspects of that industry. It’s telling that it was necessary to bring up porn in order to find an example of women being paid more than men ‘for the same job.’ Also telling that women as porn stars is brought into this discussion. Some people do really see women in only one role.

sports / movies... it's all revenue-based upon viewership. Women get the same proportion of potential box office sales as men do... in Hollywood, porn, and athletics.
You are blaming the corporation when you should be blaming the customers for not being willing to pay more for what they view as less.

 

[cycomiko]

I’m not certain how comparing the men’s vs the women’s World Cup total monies generated is pertinent. Pro soccer players are not paid the same from country to country, from team to team or even within teams.h The women are not asking to be paid what British Premiere league players are paid. They are asking to be paid what male MLS players are paid. They generate more income for the US soccer organization than the US men do and seriously out play and out win them. They certainly are generating a great deal more excitement for the sport among men and women in the US and are generating and inspiring a new pool of players and fans among young girls and women.

If I recall correctly, the women actually take home a higher percentage of the prize money at big tournaments than the men do. I'd have to find those stats again to back that up but i'm fairly certain that's still the case. The issue is that the prize pool is much smaller for FIFA women's tournaments than those that the men play in. When the rest of the world catches up to the US, I believe it will be more profitable and therefore support much higher prize pools.

I think the current law suit by the USWNT is only regarding the national team pay and not NWSL vs MLS. I don't think NWSL and MLS are comparable. I view NWSL more in line with USL when it comes to money making ability. If my NWSL (Reign) team could fill the same stadium at the same price point as my MLS team (Sounders) then, hell yes, pay those ladies the same and fill Century Link. I just don't think the market is there even though I, personally, pay nearly equal attention to both leagues. Outside of the Pacific Northwest the soccer culture just doesn't seem as strong. If you ever get a chance to go to a Timbers vs Reign match, do it.

Based on what I've read, the comparisons are tricky. More money is taken in through sponsorship than tournaments. But the WNT definitely are competitive nationally with the MNT when it comes to domestic bucks. The domestic leagues, though, women aren't paid much because the leagues haven't had much success. The MLS has survived based on a pyramid scheme of continually adding new franchises at higher and higher rates to balance the books. Decades in, the MLS has still not won a CONCACAF Champions League.

Good points. It really is difficult to compare but within the USSF I think the women should be equally paid if not paid more. Tournament winnings and bonuses for making the final 23 player squad aren't so easy until the world catches up to us in enthusiasm for the women's game. They're getting there.

MLS has some odd rules that seem to hold it back. Revenue sharing, TAM/GAM, salary caps, etc. It works in some ways but not in others. Luckily the sport has grown in popularity in recent years. I just wish more American fans could stomach a system of relegation/promotion and we could do away with the playoff system. I'd much rather mirror the system used in Europe and put more effort into winning a CCL each year now that we're getting closer to Liga MX in terms of quality. NWSL is a long way off but I really hope it can continue to grow as well.