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Your Silence is Deafening

Who do you think I am, Superman? Are you Superman? Because - If you told people they could not have sex after drinking, they’d punch you in the nose.
Like all the conservatives in this thread, he wants us to be more concerned about a "scary" hypothetical he insists liberals want (though he cannot of course demonstrate that anyone has argued for such a law) than about the real, tangible, and immediate harm faced eveyr year by the women of this country.
No, I want you to come up with a better law than NY already has. And you can not do it.

Because at the end of the day this woman will have no legal case because she was drunk and had sex. You don't like it and want to call it rape. Fine, then come up with a better law that works with everyone else.

Because the law has to work with everyone else and not just you and the feminists.
 
Because at the end of the day this woman will have no legal case because she was drunk and had sex.

Your complete lack of nuance just doesn't align with the actual facts of this case.

To test your logic, let's construct a scenario under NY state law. Suppose you and your wife go out on the town and get drunk. She agrees to have sex, and she consents to taking some ketamine--but you give her far more than she asked for. Afterward, you broadcast a text to the entire neighborhood: "Free pussy in my bedroom. Come and get it, boys!"

The first neighbor arrives and has sex with her while she is severely impaired. The second neighbor gets violent, striking her multiple times while she is barely conscious. A third arrives, and even though she physically tries to swat him away, he proceeds anyway. A fourth guy shows up and takes advantage as well.

Under your "she was drunk and had sex" logic, every single one of those men--and you as the facilitator--would be completely absolved of sexual assault, battery, and accomplice liability. I would certainly hope you'd recognize the illegality and gross violation in that scenario without declaring that doing so makes you a "feminist."

Does it really take mapping this out on a personal level for someone you care about to see why temporary, limited consent isn't a single blanket permission slip for all future events? Or have you simply relied on a one-sided narrative without actually examining the facts of this case?
 
She seems to have changed her tune about it being consensual once it spread around campus and Chi Phi withdrew their invitation to their Halloween party. But as I said earlier, this whole thing is a massive clusterfuck. Its going to take some time to unravel.
Explain to me how you can obtain consent from someone full of booze and ketamine. Are you going to defend Bill Cosby next?
You can't. But in Bill Cosby's case the substance abuse itself was done without consent and that makes what he did predatory and completely different. Do you think the law should also forbid people from sex if someone is clearly under the influence of alcohol or other substances? That sounds excessive to me but I have a feeling that most people on this board would favor that kind of law.

If you told people they could not have sex after drinking that would surely put nearly all the bars out of business in short order.
Pressing an already intoxicated person to consume another drug is not within the bounds of consent.
 
She seems to have changed her tune about it being consensual once it spread around campus and Chi Phi withdrew their invitation to their Halloween party. But as I said earlier, this whole thing is a massive clusterfuck. Its going to take some time to unravel.
Explain to me how you can obtain consent from someone full of booze and ketamine. Are you going to defend Bill Cosby next?
You can't. But in Bill Cosby's case the substance abuse itself was done without consent and that makes what he did predatory and completely different. Do you think the law should also forbid people from sex if someone is clearly under the influence of alcohol or other substances? That sounds excessive to me but I have a feeling that most people on this board would favor that kind of law.

If you told people they could not have sex after drinking that would surely put nearly all the bars out of business in short order.
Pressing an already intoxicated person to consume another drug is not within the bounds of consent.
Considering who RVonse voted for in the last 3 elections, there's a non zero chance that's what he finds so objectionable.
 
She seems to have changed her tune about it being consensual once it spread around campus and Chi Phi withdrew their invitation to their Halloween party. But as I said earlier, this whole thing is a massive clusterfuck. Its going to take some time to unravel.
Explain to me how you can obtain consent from someone full of booze and ketamine. Are you going to defend Bill Cosby next?
You can't. But in Bill Cosby's case the substance abuse itself was done without consent and that makes what he did predatory and completely different. Do you think the law should also forbid people from sex if someone is clearly under the influence of alcohol or other substances? That sounds excessive to me but I have a feeling that most people on this board would favor that kind of law.

If you told people they could not have sex after drinking that would surely put nearly all the bars out of business in short order.
Pressing an already intoxicated person to consume another drug is not within the bounds of consent.
Not certain why this is a hard concept to grasp. If the intent is to incapacitate a person, that should be a crime!
 
No, I want you to come up with a better law than NY already has. And you can not do it.
What new laws? All I'm asking for the enforcement of the law as it stands. It is not, in fact, legal to commit rape.
Ah. And your argument is that if someone consumes alcohol willingly, it should then be legal for you to rape her? Not morally right, of course not, but legal?
 
Who do you think I am, Superman? Are you Superman? Because - If you told people they could not have sex after drinking, they’d punch you in the nose.
Like all the conservatives in this thread, he wants us to be more concerned about a "scary" hypothetical he insists liberals want (though he cannot of course demonstrate that anyone has argued for such a law) than about the real, tangible, and immediate harm faced eveyr year by the women of this country.
No, I want you to come up with a better law than NY already has. And you can not do it.

Because at the end of the day this woman will have no legal case because she was drunk and had sex.
And the ketamine they gave her while the sex was on-going?

Why they give her that? Why not just a general anesthetic? That might be harder to get. I suppose it was better than chloroform though.

Also, why did they tell other people to show up and fuck her like this was a porno?

Did they tell the people they bragged to about it the following day that they drugged her while doing it?
 
No, I want you to come up with a better law than NY already has. And you can not do it.
What new laws? All I'm asking for the enforcement of the law as it stands. It is not, in fact, legal to commit rape.
Ah. And your argument is that if someone consumes alcohol willingly, it should then be legal for you to rape her? Not morally right, of course not, but legal?
NY law did complicate the situation. If she willfully consumes drugs (alcohol, ketamine), then consent is a mess in court. I want to know the timeline for distribution of drugs at the place and why they gave her the drugs.
 
I'd argue the customary interpretation of NY law is more the question. But yes, IF the law really does state in clear terms that it is acceptable to rape anyone who has legally consumed alcohol, then that law should be amended, I would agree with that.
 
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The law doesn't state this precisely. This is because the law and courts do not hinge on a uni-dimensional aspect of a case. Cases are evaluated by the totality of the circumstances versus the totality of the laws.

There are multiple statutes, sections, subsections, precedents, and definitions in law. In considering that there is one single legal disadvantage that survivors of sexual assault have, all of the other definitions and subsections of statutes are not being considered at all. They are being ignored.

The hypothetical I gave of RVonse and his wife illustrate the complexity of scenarios and each of the aspects in that hypothetical map to different aspects of law that go way beyond this single disadvantage being focused upon. I don't know why RVonse is ignoring this.

Here are just a few of the considerations:
  • voluntary intoxication: it is questionable the degree of intoxication that was voluntary to begin with, before we even discuss the loophole of intoxication in the first place. She says she did not assent to the amount of ketamine she received.
  • forcible compulsion: it is irrelevant if someone is intoxicated or drugged, if they are physically beaten or forced. She says she was punched and has evidence of bruises.
  • revocation of consent: it is irrelevant if someone is intoxicated or drugged, if they revoke consent. She was swatting someone away.
  • lack of consent: it is irrelevant if someone is intoxicated or drugged, if they never gave consent to sex with strangers outside the room to begin with.
  • physical helplessness: it is irrelevant if someone voluntarily mentally incapacitated themselves, if they are asleep or similarly unable to move. It is unknown if she became physically helpless, but it was clear she had given up after physically resisting. If she were physically helpless that would also be rape, regardless of voluntary intoxication level.

There are also other potential crimes besides the direct sexual assaults: physical assault, distribution of a narcotic, conspiracy, criminal facilitation, assault in the second degree (by giving way more ketamine than assented to) and reckless endangerment.

Besides the various criminal cases, yet another dimension is the civil case. There is no such "loophole" being discussed at the federal level for Title IX, meaning the university can be sued here.
 
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A good article on how right wingers reflexively go with the "never trust women" mantra;


Similarly, conservative commentator Megyn Kelly took the opportunity to go after the victim—specifically her appearance.

“I’m just going to be honest, she’s not the most attractive gal,” Kelly said. “She’s extremely beefy in her arms and her legs. She has a whole video online talking about her cankles.”
*snip*
Speaking out in defense of Trump in 2016, right-wing radio host Rush Limbaugh lamented the existence of what he called “the rape police,” who he felt were unjustly criticizing Trump.
 
Many if not most American men have an immediate and pressing personal reason to believe that certain acts are "technically" or "not technically" rape, and they are going to struggle to consider evidence or be objective about the matter.
 
I'd argue the customary interpretation of NY law is more the question. But yes, IF the law really does state in clear terms that it is acceptable to rape anyone who has legally consumed alcohol, then that law should be amended, I would agree with that.
The problem is she "consented". The issue is consent to me (and I would presume the law), isn't a blank check. So I'm uncertain why it was treated that way by the County. I get there was going to be a difficult battle. She said, he said he said he said he said he said he said he said, but isn't this why you investigate things. Get an honest timeline of actions of all parties and go from there.
 
I'd argue the customary interpretation of NY law is more the question. But yes, IF the law really does state in clear terms that it is acceptable to rape anyone who has legally consumed alcohol, then that law should be amended, I would agree with that.
The problem is she "consented". The issue is consent to me (and I would presume the law), isn't a blank check. So I'm uncertain why it was treated that way by the County. I get there was going to be a difficult battle. She said, he said he said he said he said he said he said he said, but isn't this why you investigate things. Get an honest timeline of actions of all parties and go from there.
The school, by effectively making themselves the unofficial principal investigators, then playing the court, may have made the gathering of testimony much more difficult than it might have been had the investigation been accomplished well and quickly. I know it is not the most popular opinion on "the left", but there are some deep problems with Title IX. Not really the law itself, but the way schools have taken advantage of its implementation to achieve goals the law was never intended to cater to.
 
I'd argue the customary interpretation of NY law is more the question. But yes, IF the law really does state in clear terms that it is acceptable to rape anyone who has legally consumed alcohol, then that law should be amended, I would agree with that.
The problem is she "consented". The issue is consent to me (and I would presume the law), isn't a blank check. So I'm uncertain why it was treated that way by the County. I get there was going to be a difficult battle. She said, he said he said he said he said he said he said he said, but isn't this why you investigate things. Get an honest timeline of actions of all parties and go from there.
The school, by effectively making themselves the unofficial principal investigators, then playing the court, may have made the gathering of testimony much more difficult than it might have been had the investigation been accomplished well and quickly. I know it is not the most popular opinion on "the left", but there are some deep problems with Title IX. Not really the law itself, but the way schools have taken advantage of its implementation to achieve goals the law was never intended to cater to.
I don’t disagree. But here is where I think it is difficult to draw lines: student A who lives on campus is raped by another student B on campus. The rapist B ( I’m not using alleged because in my hypothetical but all too much like reality, the person A was actually raped by B) lives in the same dormitory and is in at least one other class and study group as A.

It is unreasonable for A to have to be continually exposed to or be confronted by B or B’s supporters/friends in the place where they live and in their classes. It is unreasonable that their GPA, any scholarships or financial aid or tuition paid —or rom and board be compromised because A was the victim of a sexual assault and is continually being exposed to reminders and gossip, retaliation, etc. all of this is additional trauma.

But even an arrest can take some time and there is usually bail and a conviction can take months or longer.

How should the university behave towards B who also faces impact on their GPA, financial aid, scholarship, tuition, etc.? Is the professor who assigned study groups to be made privy to the allegations and separate the two in class and study groups?

It is of course possible that B is innocent and ( though my hypothetical is that they are guilty) that A is either mistaken as to their rapist’s identity or dishonest. It is more likely, in my experience, that B did not consider what happened to be rape but what happened may well have met the legal definition of rape and A was raped. . I don’t think much has changed since my campus days when to a certain kind of person, drunk did not remove ability to consent—drunk removed need for consent.

Or, given the relative young ages of most college students, A was unwilling and in the situation, froze instead of fighting back and B took silence as consent, not recognizing that enthusiasm and active participation should generally be part of the experience for both/all participants.

Both A and B will carry an extremely heavy burden, regardless of whether the case proceeds to arrest and trial or not. Regardless of the verdict.

That is, of course, assuming the DA decides to bring charges. DAs only bring charges if they feel confident of a victory. Substance abuse, prior relationship, etc. can make it more difficult to convince a jury. This is outside of the hands of the university. And it should be.

I would argue that being the victim of rape or sexual assault is a far greater burden than being accused of it. But being accused is no picnic.

What should the university do? What is the university obligated to do?
 
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