At least 6 dead in Mass Shooting du Jour

[bilby]

If that's an excuse to stop and search, then the cops basically have the right to stop and search on a whim.

Not stop and search. Stop and ask for license and insurance, then run the license to see if the person has any warrants.
A search of the vehicle requires more than just a traffic stop.

I don't think you should be OK with the cavalier abandonment of the fourth amendment without so much as a debate.

I know you are Australian and all, but why do you think traffic stops are a violation of the 4th Amendment? Are you going "sovereign citizen" on us? "I wasn't driving, I was travelling"?

But it's your freedom. It's not my place to defend it.

True. How are they doing things in Australia? Are there traffic stops? What happens if you are stopped? Does the cop ask for license, registration and proof of insurance?

Australia is a prison colony that became a country. It's founded on the absence of freedom, and everything that's not prohibited by law is mandatory.

We resolve this by ignoring our oppressive laws (except when oppressing the indigenous population).

We make no claims nor pretence to being a free country, founded on and committed to freedom.

And despite this (or perhaps because of it), we have more freedom than Americans, and a far better grasp of the ways in which we risk losing that freedom.

I doubt that you have more freedom than Americans, based on what I’ve been told by Australians.

I doubt that you have as much freedom as Australians, based on what I have seen of America, and on what I have been told by Americans (including many on these forums).

As far as I know, you’ve never actually been to the US. I’ve never been to Australia. What I have to base my opinion on is what Australians who are either visiting or who have immigrated have told me. I will confess that Rupert Murdoch and his progeny have made me think less well of both Australia and the US.

I haven't been to the US since 1996. Doubtless it's changed a bit since then, and doubtless much of the country was very different from Los Angeles, CA, even then.

 

[Toni]

If that's an excuse to stop and search, then the cops basically have the right to stop and search on a whim.

Not stop and search. Stop and ask for license and insurance, then run the license to see if the person has any warrants.
A search of the vehicle requires more than just a traffic stop.

I don't think you should be OK with the cavalier abandonment of the fourth amendment without so much as a debate.

I know you are Australian and all, but why do you think traffic stops are a violation of the 4th Amendment? Are you going "sovereign citizen" on us? "I wasn't driving, I was travelling"?

But it's your freedom. It's not my place to defend it.

True. How are they doing things in Australia? Are there traffic stops? What happens if you are stopped? Does the cop ask for license, registration and proof of insurance?

Australia is a prison colony that became a country. It's founded on the absence of freedom, and everything that's not prohibited by law is mandatory.

We resolve this by ignoring our oppressive laws (except when oppressing the indigenous population).

We make no claims nor pretence to being a free country, founded on and committed to freedom.

And despite this (or perhaps because of it), we have more freedom than Americans, and a far better grasp of the ways in which we risk losing that freedom.

I doubt that you have more freedom than Americans, based on what I’ve been told by Australians.

I doubt that you have as much freedom as Australians, based on what I have seen of America, and on what I have been told by Americans (including many on these forums).

As far as I know, you’ve never actually been to the US. I’ve never been to Australia. What I have to base my opinion on is what Australians who are either visiting or who have immigrated have told me. I will confess that Rupert Murdoch and his progeny have made me think less well of both Australia and the US.

I haven't been to the US since 1996. Doubtless it's changed a bit since then, and doubtless much of the country was very different from Los Angeles, CA, even then.

LA is it's own kind of place, for sure.

Lots of regional differences in the US, somewhat flattened by the ubiquitous and omnipresent mass media. Even regional accents are flattening somewhat.

 

[Politesse]

Having spent some time in both countries, I think I'd describe the US and Australia as simultaneously charmingly similar (in culture and landscape), uninterestingly similar (in the structural and economic realities), and depressingly similar (in politics and mostly unacknowledged race issues). We are WAY more uptight about everything than our friends down under, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is not technically illegal to run a warrant check on the radio, but here again, the police abuse the rights of drivers, a vast majority of whom are innocent of crimes and do not have warrants for their arrests. A simple moving violation, or a broken taillight or turn signal does not provide reasonable suspicion to the police that the driver has committed a crime or is wanted for a crime, but the fucking police run them for warrants anyway. And then they sometimes arrest the wrong person and keep his locked up for days and weeks, just because he has the same name as someone with a warrant.

Warrants are already in police databases, there's no need for reasonable suspicion to run a warrant check.

 

[Derec]

Sorry the pretty picture of the world map misled you.

I was merely wondering why you posted it in the first place, as it serves no purpose, unlike say a color-coded map would.

Get someone to read you the list.

Aren't we witty today.

No, you can’t talk about the reason, because it’s a relic of slavery and you conservos don’t even acknowledge it.

Slavery ended over a century and a half ago. It is no excuse for people born ~20 years ago to engage in wanton violent crime.
How much longer do you leftists intend to use this particular excuse?

 

[Metaphor]

Sorry the pretty picture of the world map misled you.

I was merely wondering why you posted it in the first place, as it serves no purpose, unlike say a color-coded map would.

Get someone to read you the list.

Aren't we witty today.

No, you can’t talk about the reason, because it’s a relic of slavery and you conservos don’t even acknowledge it.

Slavery ended over a century and a half ago. It is no excuse for people born ~20 years ago to engage in wanton violent crime.
How much longer do you leftists intend to use this particular excuse?

I can answer that one. I know because I've asked before.

Until there are no white-favouring inequities on any measure a leftie decides upon.

The rest of your right wing screed bespeaks needs for help that is beyond the collective capabilities of this forum.

Personal insult again.

 

[Derec]

None of which would have been known to the police at the time they initiated the stop.

So they initiate the stop so they can check for those things.

The police were instructed by policy to NOT pull over people for minor infractions during that time, and they disregarded their policy when it came to this stop.

I do not think much of policies like that which are designed to disallow police to do their jobs. Besides, the officers first noticed the car when Daunte tried to make an illegal turn, as I have said before. Without it, they might not have noticed the illegal air freshener and the expired tag.
Not allowing police to make traffic stops makes us all less safe. It's a bad policy.

Mr Wright would still have been alive if the police had obeyed the instructions they had been given.

He'd also be alive had he obeyed the instructions and not ran like an idiot. In the end, he lost way more than the rookie cop or even Potter.

Yes, Mr Wright would still have been free with a warrant in his name,

Not to mention drive around without a license or insurance, putting other motorists and pedestrians in danger.

but that is better than the alternative where Mr Wright is dead because the police disobeyed their policy.

The traffic stop did not cause Daunte's death. Potter's mistake, which was precipitated by Wright's boneheaded decision to run, is what caused his death. Let's not forgot who chose to escalate here.

That is the part you don't understand, because you do not view black people as human beings

BULLSHIT!
I do view black people as human beings. Which is why I hold them to the same standards as everyone else.
You on the other hand do view black people as less-than, since you always hold them to a lesser standard.

whose lives are of immeasurable value, just as your life is to you. Even people like Mr Wright, with a warrant in his name.

I do not disagree with this. That is not the issue. The issue is that you think police in Minnesota (and elsewhere) should not be checking motorists for open warrants, even if it means taking gun criminals off the streets.
Also note that had he not decided to run, he'd have been alive and well. In jail, but alive and well.

 

[Derec]

Asking a driver to display his license and registration is not a violation of the driver's rights, and that is not what Bilby was implying based on my reading of his posts.

My reading of his posts suggests that he thinks that running a driver for warrants upon a stop constitutes an "unreasonable search and seizure". Either that, or he mistakenly thinks that police in the US can physically search a vehicle just because there was a traffic stop.
But let's let Bilby clarify his thoughts.

And I have personal experience with this where I was detained on the side of the road for nearly two hours with no reasonable suspicion or probable cause so the fucking PD could bring a K-9 unit to sniff my car because I refused to consent to a search.
I later received an apology from the Chief of Police of the little town in Virginia where this happened after I filed a formal complaint at the PD and a civil rights violation lawsuit against the town in Federal Court.

So if we take your word for it some beat cops screwed up. Maybe. Nobody suggested police are infallible.

It is not technically illegal to run a warrant check on the radio, but here again, the police abuse the rights of drivers, a vast majority of whom are innocent of crimes and do not have warrants for their arrests.

Why do you think running a warrant is "abuse of the rights of drivers"?

A simple moving violation, or a broken taillight or turn signal does not provide reasonable suspicion to the police that the driver has committed a crime or is wanted for a crime, but the fucking police run them for warrants anyway.

Have any courts see the matter the way you do?

And then they sometimes arrest the wrong person and keep his locked up for days and weeks, just because he has the same name as someone with a warrant.

Mistakes happen. This type of mistake is rare, however.

 

[Derec]

Over and over, we created policies that targeted black people.

And for the last 50 years or so, we have had policies that benefit black people. E.g. so-called "affirmative action".

 

[Derec]

How the fuck could you possibly know that? The evidence speaks against your claim.

There was no evidence of intent.

 

[Derec]

You made the OP. You made the link. You could have made your point about being soft on gun crimes without using your typical example of black shooters killing people.

The mass shooting "du jour" involved black shooters. I do not see you complain when a thread about a white mass shooter is posted. Are we allowed to only talk about white mass shooters on here?

Your OP does not acknowledge the fact that CA prisons are over-crowded.

Then CA should have built more jails and prison. But that would go against the "defund" mantra that has infected the Left.
And violent criminals are the last who should be released early. If you must release somebody, release non-violent offenders.

I believe the state is under court order to alleviate the over-crowding. If my belief is accurate, then the releases are due to the people of California's unwillingness to allocate the resources to house more violent criminals for longer periods of time - which has nothing whatsoever to do with going on soft on crime but either being cheap ass or having different priorities than you.

Not providing adequate jail and prison facilities is part of the "soft on crime" agenda of the Left. Similar to how the disgraced "progressive" Lt. Gov. of NY wants to shut down Riker's Island but without building any new jails to replace capacity.

 

[Toni]

Over and over, we created policies that targeted black people.

And for the last 50 years or so, we have had policies that benefit black people. E.g. so-called "affirmative action".

EVERYONE benefits when all are afforded equal rights, including equal access to educational opportunities, housing, jobs, etc.

We aren't there yet. Unfortunately a few decades of half hearted, extremely resented attempts to correct a grave wrong have not yet erased or sufficiently mitigated the hundreds of years of slavery, the decades of Jim Crow, the so called War on Drugs designed, in part, to harm black Americans, and other policies which are still alive and well.

 

[laughing dog]

You made the OP. You made the link. You could have made your point about being soft on gun crimes without using your typical example of black shooters killing people.

The mass shooting "du jour" involved black shooters. I do not see you complain when a thread about a white mass shooter is posted. Are we allowed to only talk about white mass shooters on here?

I do not see you start threads about white shooters - only black ones. Using your reasoning above, that means we are allowed to only talk about black mass shooters.

Your OP does not acknowledge the fact that CA prisons are over-crowded.

Then CA should have built more jails and prison. But that would go against the "defund" mantra that has infected the Left.
And violent criminals are the last who should be released early. If you must release somebody, release non-violent offenders.

I believe the state is under court order to alleviate the over-crowding. If my belief is accurate, then the releases are due to the people of California's unwillingness to allocate the resources to house more violent criminals for longer periods of time - which has nothing whatsoever to do with going on soft on crime but either being cheap ass or having different priorities than you.

Not providing adequate jail and prison facilities is part of the "soft on crime" agenda of the Left. Similar to how the disgraced "progressive" Lt. Gov. of NY wants to shut down Riker's Island but without building any new jails to replace capacity.

The court orders to stop over-crowding predate by a number of years any "defund" movement or "soft on crime" movements.

The people of California have made their social preferences clear on this matter. Up to this point, they clearly do not wish to expend sufficient resources to keep all the people you want to keep in prison. Maybe they will change their minds. But until they do, they have chosen to live with these consequences.

 

[Elixir]

. Up to this point, they clearly do not wish to expend sufficient resources to keep all the people you want to keep in prison

Nobody in their right mind advocates for the amount of incarcerations Derec wants. It’s his “solution” to every crime there is (except his hobbyhorse). I’ve stopped paying attention to his broken record.

 

[TomC]

The people of California have made their social preferences clear on this matter. Up to this point, they clearly do not wish to expend sufficient resources to keep all the people you want to keep in prison. Maybe they will change their minds. But until they do, they have chosen to live with these consequences.

I don't live in or pretend to understand California.

But I've read a few internet essays describing California's referendum system as explaining the problem with democracy.

Put a "let's cut taxes" thing on a referendum and it will probably pass. Put a "let's use taxpayer money to fix this problem" on a referendum and it will also probably pass.

As long as the two issues are separated, California's voters will both cut taxes and increase spending. That's not really sustainable, but as long as political operatives keep the issues separated it can be done.

Again.
I've never even been to California.

I'm talking about the problem with democracy, as used by a poorly informed electorate.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I still disagree about legalizing all adult sex work for all the reasons we've battled about many times.

No one has claimed that Wright was a saint but no, I don't think he deserved to die. The officers should never have pulled him over in the first place per pandemic instructions in effect at the time. They did NOT know there was a warrant out for his arrest until he was pulled over. It is still unclear whether or not he was ever served a warrant so it is possible he was unaware. Do I think he was a good person? Almost certainly not but I also don't believe in the death penalty and certainly not prior to even being arrested on those charges, much less tried and convicted. It was a terrible tragedy all around.

Note that he was committing two offenses at the time--the tag which they weren't stopping people for at that time and the air freshener hanging from the mirror (obstructed windshield) that we have no indication they weren't stopping people for.

Oh, I see, he was committing not one but two offenses. That makes it completely OK. He has an air freshener blocking part of his mirror - lets pull him over. Even though we have explicitly been instructed not to pull people over during the fucking pandemic for minor offenses, the air freshener is so fucking over the line we have to do something about it. And he might have been planning to use said air freshener as a deadly weapon - lets fucking shoot him for that.

Dude, air fresheners are the slippery slope, might as well allow them to shot at cops.

 

[bilby]

. Up to this point, they clearly do not wish to expend sufficient resources to keep all the people you want to keep in prison

Nobody in their right mind advocates for the amount of incarcerations Derec wants. It’s his “solution” to every crime there is (except his hobbyhorse). I’ve stopped paying attention to his broken record.

It's been a common theme throughout history - crime is a problem, but if we could just hang (or more recently, imprison) all the evil people, that problem would be solved, and all the good people could live in comfort and without fear.

It's hugely tempting. Particularly to those who naturally incline towards authoritarianism.

But it doesn't work.

"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us, and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

 

[atrib]

None of which would have been known to the police at the time they initiated the stop.

So they initiate the stop so they can check for those things.

Again, police can only initiate a stop if they have a reasonable suspicion that a crime or moving violation has been committed. Based on the PD policy at that time, the police were instructed to NOT pull people over for minor violations, like an expired tag. This policy makes sense, given that covid-19 spreads through human contact, and that the DMV at the time could not keep up with license/tag renewals and new applications due to impacts of said pandemic. The police pulled Wright over for an expired plate, not an illegal air freshener (which was discovered during the stop), or an illegal turn (not part of any official police record I could find, including statements by the police chief). Therefore, the police violated their department's policy by pulling Wright over, likely because the police in the Twin Cities area have a documented history of racial profiling and were acting in this capacity.

The police were instructed by policy to NOT pull over people for minor infractions during that time, and they disregarded their policy when it came to this stop.

I do not think much of policies like that which are designed to disallow police to do their jobs.

Irrelevant. You are not the police chief or an elected official in the Twin Cities area who has the authority to make policy.

Besides, the officers first noticed the car when Daunte tried to make an illegal turn, as I have said before.

No, he didn't. Go look at the chief's public statements and the reports from credible news agencies. [removed]

Without it, they might not have noticed the illegal air freshener and the expired tag.
Not allowing police to make traffic stops makes us all less safe. It's a bad policy.

Nonsense. Pulling people over for expired plates does not make anyone safer. [removed]

Mr Wright would still have been alive if the police had obeyed the instructions they had been given.

He'd also be alive had he obeyed the instructions and not ran like an idiot. In the end, he lost way more than the rookie cop or even Potter.

I don't know what Wright was thinking at the time of the illegal detainment. Given the history of discrimination, violence and even murder that the Twin Cities PD is known for, I would not have been surprised if he were scared for his life at being accosted and arrested by the police. Mr Wright's warrant was apparently related to a $346 fine for a non-appearance in a cannabis and disorderly conduct related trial. Not a huge deal in the big picture, and not one most people would have been trying to run from. And also not something that would suggest that Mr Wright posed a threat to anyone in the community. So, yeah, he was killed because the police violated their department policy and a stupid cop terrified at the throught of a young black man with a cannabis charge related warrant running around free shot him dead.

Yes, Mr Wright would still have been free with a warrant in his name,

Not to mention drive around without a license or insurance, putting other motorists and pedestrians in danger.

Did Mr Wright have a lawful license to drive? If yes, he posed no threat to the motoring public by driving without a piece of plastic on him. And it is also completely irrelevant to the police violating their own policy and killing a human in a moment of racially biased prejudice (the fear of the young black man). You are only bringing this up in an attempt to divert our attention from the facts.

but that is better than the alternative where Mr Wright is dead because the police disobeyed their policy.

The traffic stop did not cause Daunte's death. Potter's mistake, which was precipitated by Wright's boneheaded decision to run, is what caused his death. Let's not forgot who chose to escalate here.

Mr Wright died because a white police officer was so terrorised at the thought of a young black man with a cannabis charge related warrant running free that she recklessly shot him with a jacketed hollow point. Those are the facts and there is no other explanation that fits the scenario. The thing we should be talking about is why she felt so terrified and overwhelmed that her 26 years of training and experience went out the window. Why is white America so scared of young black men that we keep killing them on the streets for no good reason?

That is the part you don't understand, because you do not view black people as human beings

BULLSHIT!
I do view black people as human beings. Which is why I hold them to the same standards as everyone else.
You on the other hand do view black people as less-than, since you always hold them to a lesser standard.

whose lives are of immeasurable value, just as your life is to you. Even people like Mr Wright, with a warrant in his name.

I do not disagree with this. That is not the issue. The issue is that you think police in Minnesota (and elsewhere) should not be checking motorists for open warrants, even if it means taking gun criminals off the streets.
Also note that had he not decided to run, he'd have been alive and well. In jail, but alive and well.

All your posts over the years speak to the contrary. You are not outraged that a young man was shot and killed by an incompetent police officer who was violating her department's policy, all over a fucking expired tag. You are continuously outraged that people protesting such acts of killing sometimes block roads as a form of protest. [removed]

 

[Elixir]

Unconcerned that a young man was shot and killed, yet fit to be tied because a road was blocked.
That's par for this course. After all, blocking roads is a form of

 

[bilby]

Either that, or he mistakenly thinks that police in the US can physically search a vehicle just because there was a traffic stop.

Can? sure.

Do? Absolutely.

Are allowed to? No. But nobody's stopping them, except a tiny handful of brave or foolhardy people, who don't fear police vindictiveness when challenged over exceeding their authority.

It might well be easy for you to refuse to permit an unlawful search of your vehicle. For a young black man, such refusal is a life threatening risk. Which is the whole point.

It's not sufficient to say that you have the right not to be stopped and searched without cause; The reality on the ground must be that police are routinely and effectively punished for infringing or attempting to infringe that right, or the right has no effective existence at all.