No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

[Derec]

Just like there were no surprises in the OP.

Which is good, since I wasn't going for the element of surprise.

True. Just like there are people who think they have to attack guys like this victim perp because of the color of their skin his actions.

FIFY. You are welcome.

 

[laughing dog]

Just like there were no surprises in the OP.

Which is good, since I wasn't going for the element of surprise.

True. Just like there are people who think they have to attack guys like this victim perp because of the color of their skin his actions.

FIFY. You are welcome. nailed it.

FIFY. No need to thank me.

 

[Derec]

Believe it or not, Derec, I have an extremely full life outside this forum and it gives me no pleasure to watch multiple videos of people being murdered.

Then you should have no issue with the video, as Lyoya wasn't murdered.
But I get your point - you do not like to watch video where people get killed. Fair enough. But then please do not pontificate about whether it is murder or that you think that the officer lied about the perp going for his taser or any other details you do not know but could have easily found out simply by watching.

Call me crazy but it just not seem to give me the same kind of thrill it gives you.

No thrill. But I do like to be informed.

Im not watching another video of another police officer killing another person. The video I saw earlier looked to me as though he was grabbing fir a weapon he feared being used on him. You know: defending himself.

But he was in the process of being legally detained. He has no right to defend himself against that.
And if he wasn't "defending himself" as you call it he'd still be alive. In jail, where he belonged, but alive.
Moral of the story: do not fight with police, and don't "defend" yourself by going for the police officer's weapons.

I realize that for many people, ordinary citizens do not have a right to defend themselves from attacks by police even if the police mistakenly break into their home in the middle of the night and are assumed to be home invaders—which they actually are.

People are actually given a lot of leeway when police serve warrants in their homes based on the assumption that they might have mistaken police for a home invader. Especially at night. Breonna Taylor's boyfriend's charges were dropped. Andrew Coffee IV, as big a scumbag as he is, was nevertheless acquitted of the murder charge when he shot at police and police returned fire, killing his girlfriend.

This case wasn't anything like that. This was in the middle of the day. It wasn't in his house, but it was a traffic stop, because the car Lyoya was driving had plates belonging to another vehicle. He was also driving with a revoked license and had two warrants out for his arrest, one for domestic violence for allegedly beating up his baby mama (funny how feminists like you choose to ignore info like that).
So he decided to run, and when that failed, fight with the officer in order to avoid going to jail. How far would he go to avoid being arrested? We do not know, and the officer is not required to find out.

As for informing myself, maybe you should inform yourself about the well documented history of racism in Grand Rapids MI.

From what I have seen it's mostly disparate impact nonsense. I.e. blacks are more likely to be stopped. But even if there was significant racism in Grand Rapids police department (a big if, as I have seen no actual evidence of it), that is completely irrelevant to what happened here. If I drive with mismatched plates, I will be stopped too. If I have warrants for my arrest, I will be arrested. If I decide to fight with the officer and grab his taser, I will probably get shot too. Where is the racism here?

Y’all southern white boys don’t got no monopoly on racism.

I know that already. The biggest racist in the case is a Northern black boy from Brooklyn.

 

[Toni]

Believe it or not, Derec, I have an extremely full life outside this forum and it gives me no pleasure to watch multiple videos of people being murdered.

Then you should have no issue with the video, as Lyoya wasn't murdered.
But I get your point - you do not like to watch video where people get killed. Fair enough. But then please do not pontificate about whether it is murder or that you think that the officer lied about the perp going for his taser or any other details you do not know but could have easily found out simply by watching.

Call me crazy but it just not seem to give me the same kind of thrill it gives you.

No thrill. But I do like to be informed.

Im not watching another video of another police officer killing another person. The video I saw earlier looked to me as though he was grabbing fir a weapon he feared being used on him. You know: defending himself.

But he was in the process of being legally detained. He has no right to defend himself against that.
And if he wasn't "defending himself" as you call it he'd still be alive. In jail, where he belonged, but alive.
Moral of the story: do not fight with police, and don't "defend" yourself by going for the police officer's weapons.

I realize that for many people, ordinary citizens do not have a right to defend themselves from attacks by police even if the police mistakenly break into their home in the middle of the night and are assumed to be home invaders—which they actually are.

People are actually given a lot of leeway when police serve warrants in their homes based on the assumption that they might have mistaken police for a home invader. Especially at night. Breonna Taylor's boyfriend's charges were dropped. Andrew Coffee IV, as big a scumbag as he is, was nevertheless acquitted of the murder charge when he shot at police and police returned fire, killing his girlfriend.

This case wasn't anything like that. This was in the middle of the day. It wasn't in his house, but it was a traffic stop, because the car Lyoya was driving had plates belonging to another vehicle. He was also driving with a revoked license and had two warrants out for his arrest, one for domestic violence for allegedly beating up his baby mama (funny how feminists like you choose to ignore info like that).
So he decided to run, and when that failed, fight with the officer in order to avoid going to jail. How far would he go to avoid being arrested? We do not know, and the officer is not required to find out.

As for informing myself, maybe you should inform yourself about the well documented history of racism in Grand Rapids MI.

From what I have seen it's mostly disparate impact nonsense. I.e. blacks are more likely to be stopped. But even if there was significant racism in Grand Rapids police department (a big if, as I have seen no actual evidence of it), that is completely irrelevant to what happened here. If I drive with mismatched plates, I will be stopped too. If I have warrants for my arrest, I will be arrested. If I decide to fight with the officer and grab his taser, I will probably get shot too. Where is the racism here?

Y’all southern white boys don’t got no monopoly on racism.

I know that already. The biggest racist in the case is a Northern black boy from Brooklyn.

I watched one video. In that video, I could make a case that Lyoya was grabbing for the taser--and could easily have been a reflex to stop it from hurting him. I've seen too many videos. I've read way too many posts of people defending things like two cops roaring up on a child playing in the park and shooting him to death in under 5 seconds. I don't have the stomach for it. Some of the actions of police are bad enough. To read other people defending them....

Seriously, Derec, what possesses you to link to different cases of (it's always some black guy) people who are involved in some police shooting--either being shot by or shooting at police? That person had zero bearing on this case.

I mean, it's great that Breonna Taylor's boyfriends charges were eventually dropped--there was ZERO reason to charge him! And I'm certain he paid an extreme price for defending his girlfriend's home, even without the fact that BREONNA TAYLOR WAS KILLED by police breaking into her apartment in the middle of the night while she was sleeping.

FFS Derec, I read a lot. I also like to be informed. Beyond having my own prejudices confirmed over.

A member of my family works as a public defender in a very white region of a pretty darn white state. It might amaze you--or not--to know that many/most of his clients have family histories and criminal histories that are eerily similar to those of the Coffee family. Substance abuse does terrible things to people. It does make one wonder whether things would have gone differently for this entire family if the grandfather had not been arrested and jailed for a small amount of pot.

 

[bilby]

The second sentence, if you were to apply it, would mean that police could never use deadly force. That is obviously nonsense.

That's far from obvious. It certainly wasn't obvious to Robert Peel, who knew a thing or two about policing. Police in the UK to this day are not routinely able to use lethal force, because they aren't routinely issued with firearms.

The police should almost never use deadly force, and it should be a very rare last resort that attracts extraordinary scrutiny if it does occur.

Police should never casually kill the citizens they are duty bound to protect.

 

[bilby]

Another nonsensical sentence. There is no way to guarantee that a perp who attacks a cop will not be able to overpower him or her and take their weapon.

Of course there fucking is.

No matter how superhumanly powerful your mythical 'bad guy' might be, he cannot take a gun away from a policeman who doesn't have one.

 

[ZiprHead]

Schurr was under attack by your boy Lyoya.

Schurr could have just backed away to stop the attack.

And trying to defend yourself, even though it's illegal, is in no way an attack.

 

[Gospel]

The officer here "got froggy", and then someone died.

I think it was Lyoya who got "froggy" when he decided to run and fight.

Did Lyoya throw a punch at the officer?
Did Lyoya put the officer in a headlock?
Did Lyoya try to body slam the officer?
Did Lyoya try to trip the officer?
Did Lyoya try kicking the officer?
Did Lyoya us any offensive combat moves at all?

You must not know how to fight if you call that fighting.

 

[laughing dog]

The officer here "got froggy", and then someone died.

I think it was Lyoya who got "froggy" when he decided to run and fight.

Did Lyoya throw a punch at the officer?
Did Lyoya put the officer in a headlock?
Did Lyoya try to body slam the officer?
Did Lyoya try to trip the officer?
Did Lyoya try kicking the officer?
Did Lyoya us any offensive combat moves at all?

You must not know how to fight if you call that fighting.

Dude, e you understand that
1)if a black suspect fails to automatically kiss the arresting officer's ass, they are resisting arrest, and
2) if a black suspect does not submit to an officer's command within a nanosecond, they are fighting,

then you can understand the position of the police idolaters.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's no such thing as a "bad guy" outside poorly written fiction. A suspect is, in law, innocent until proven guilty in court; Killing innocent people is not something we should allow the authorities to do.

"Bad guy" in the context of his behavior at the scene.

And you're living in a fantasy world if you think there's no occasion for the police to use lethal force.

Cops shouldn't be allowed weapons of any kind unless they can maintain control of them.

Another bit of fantasy world. They aren't superhuman, at contact range a disarm is always a possibility.

No cop is ever justified in shooting anyone, unless that person has already used deadly force. Cops have a duty to protect life, and to risk their own lives in so doing. Cowards who are not prepared to risk their lives in order to ascertain with certainty that the person they killed was a lethal threat have no business wearing the uniform.

And in your world there are no cops because nobody in their right mind would be a cop and you certainly don't want crazies being cops.

<Picks up rifle, shoots Bilby-cop. You can't stop me because you can't use deadly force first. I have plenty of time to aim.>

Being scared doesn't justify murder, no matter what badges you may have been officially issued.

Self defence requires that you are actually under attack. Not just worried that you might be soon.

Means, motive and opportunity:

Means: Use the taser to incapacitate the cop, take his gun and kill him.

Motive: That's the only scenario that will keep the cop from simply chasing him. He's already demonstrated a willingness to commit a felony to avoid arrest, it's reasonable to suppose he will use additional force as needed to avoid arrest.

Opportunity: He got his hands on the taser.

Just because he hasn't used deadly force yet doesn't mean it's not reasonable to think he might. Of course he's not seeking to kill the officer, just seeking to escape. However, the only way to effect escape is to incapacitate the officer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Believe it or not, Derec, I have an extremely full life outside this forum and it gives me no pleasure to watch multiple videos of people being murdered. Call me crazy but it just not seem to give me the same kind of thrill it gives you. Im not watching another video of another police officer killing another person. The video I saw earlier looked to me as though he was grabbing fir a weapon he feared being used on him. You know: defending himself. I realize that for many people, ordinary citizens do not have a right to defend themselves from attacks by police even if the police mistakenly break into their home in the middle of the night and are assumed to be home invaders—which they actually are.


As for informing myself, maybe you should inform yourself about the well documented history of racism in Grand Rapids MI. Y’all southern white boys don’t got no monopoly on racism.

Yes, he was grabbing for a weapon being used on him. The problem is that the weapon was legally being used on him. He knew the situation, this isn't a case of being confused by someone breaking in in the dark. You do not have a right to defend yourself from arrest--the law is clear on this, you challenge an arrest in the courtroom, not on the street. The only time you could legally resist is if you reasonably believe it is not actually an arrest--either that it's kidnappers using police uniforms as a ruse, or that the officer actually plans to murder you.

And the "attack" by the police happened only after he kept resisting being arrested. The police are allowed to use necessary force to effect an arrest.

And you're engaging in a total red herring here about the past history of racism. There's absolutely no reason to think racism is relevant here.

 

[Elixir]

Just because he hasn't used deadly force yet doesn't mean it's not reasonable to think he might.

WTAF??
Even in the case of a routine traffic stop, it applies that “Just because [the subject] hasn't used deadly force yet doesn't mean it's not reasonable to think he might. “

IOW, unlimited license to kill. And we SEE the result.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I watched one video. In that video, I could make a case that Lyoya was grabbing for the taser--and could easily have been a reflex to stop it from hurting him. I've seen too many videos. I've read way too many posts of people defending things like two cops roaring up on a child playing in the park and shooting him to death in under 5 seconds. I don't have the stomach for it. Some of the actions of police are bad enough. To read other people defending them....

There were repeated struggles over the taser. This isn't a case of something being misinterpreted.

You complain about discrimination, yet your position in this thread is about as discriminatory as the South in the 1800s.

I mean, it's great that Breonna Taylor's boyfriends charges were eventually dropped--there was ZERO reason to charge him! And I'm certain he paid an extreme price for defending his girlfriend's home, even without the fact that BREONNA TAYLOR WAS KILLED by police breaking into her apartment in the middle of the night while she was sleeping.

You take a shot at a police officer, if you survive you're going to be charged. It doesn't matter how badly the police fucked up to get to that point.

Fundamentally, this is a problem with no-knock warrants.

FFS Derec, I read a lot. I also like to be informed. Beyond having my own prejudices confirmed over.

You certainly aren't showing that in this case as you keep bringing up red herrings that have no bearing on the incident.

A member of my family works as a public defender in a very white region of a pretty darn white state. It might amaze you--or not--to know that many/most of his clients have family histories and criminal histories that are eerily similar to those of the Coffee family. Substance abuse does terrible things to people. It does make one wonder whether things would have gone differently for this entire family if the grandfather had not been arrested and jailed for a small amount of pot.

Raise kids as criminals, you get criminals.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Another nonsensical sentence. There is no way to guarantee that a perp who attacks a cop will not be able to overpower him or her and take their weapon.

Of course there fucking is.

No matter how superhumanly powerful your mythical 'bad guy' might be, he cannot take a gun away from a policeman who doesn't have one.

And if the officer isn't armed he can lose the physical fight and be killed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Schurr was under attack by your boy Lyoya.

Schurr could have just backed away to stop the attack.

Yeah, the leftist kumbaya position where the police can simply back down and yet somehow do their job.

And trying to defend yourself, even though it's illegal, is in no way an attack.

Simply continuing to defend himself won't accomplish anything but rack up charges. It's not an end point. At some point he's either going to surrender or he's going to seriously harm the officer. The officer is under no obligation to bet his life on which of the two paths the guy is going to choose.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Dude, e you understand that
1)if a black suspect fails to automatically kiss the arresting officer's ass, they are resisting arrest, and
2) if a black suspect does not submit to an officer's command within a nanosecond, they are fighting,

then you can understand the position of the police idolaters.

And 2 + 2 = 3.

This moron had plenty of opportunity to quit his stupidity, he just couldn't accept that he was going to jail. This wasn't a failure to kiss ass or any other such nonsense.

While he took no offensive action he kept taking illegal defensive actions that would turn a very minor offense (having the plate on the wrong car) into a serious one. Defensive actions weren't going to change the outcome, at some point he would have to either give up or take offensive actions.

 

[Derec]

I watched one video. In that video, I could make a case that Lyoya was grabbing for the taser--and could easily have been a reflex to stop it from hurting him.

It would not be a  reflex exactly, but I do acknowledge the possibility of what you say. I do not think it matters to the legality of the shooting though. We have the perp engaged in a protracted fight with the officer and grabbing at his weapon, no matter Lyoya's reason for doing so.

I've seen too many videos. I've read way too many posts of people defending things like two cops roaring up on a child playing in the park and shooting him to death in under 5 seconds.

Nobody here, myself included, was defended this. I have said that this was a series of fuckups by everyone involved. But a fuckup is not necessarily murder. And it also has nothing to do with the Lyoya situation. Schurr did not start blasting within 5 seconds of encountering Lyoya. Instead, Lyoya fought with Schurr for over a minute before Schurr used lethal force.

I don't have the stomach for it. Some of the actions of police are bad enough. To read other people defending them....

Seriously, Derec, what possesses you to link to different cases of (it's always some black guy) people who are involved in some police shooting--either being shot by or shooting at police? That person had zero bearing on this case.

Uhm, you are the one who brought up people "defending themselves" during police raids on their homes. I brought up these examples in direct response to your statements, to show you that in these cases the shooters often get away with it. For the record, I definitely think Coffee IV should have been convicted. I do not buy his story that he did not know it was police (police had already taken his father into custody at that point) and he has excessive history of violent crime, including violence against police.

I mean, it's great that Breonna Taylor's boyfriends charges were eventually dropped--there was ZERO reason to charge him!

He did shoot a police officer in the leg. The only reason his charges were dropped were his race and the anti-police insurrections throughout 2020.

And I'm certain he paid an extreme price for defending his girlfriend's home, even without the fact that BREONNA TAYLOR WAS KILLED by police breaking into her apartment in the middle of the night while she was sleeping.

They were serving a warrant. Not exactly the same as a "break in". It sucks that she was killed, of course, but you can't blame police officers for returning fire once somebody start shooting at them.

A member of my family works as a public defender in a very white region of a pretty darn white state. It might amaze you--or not--to know that many/most of his clients have family histories and criminal histories that are eerily similar to those of the Coffee family.

That does not surprise me at all. The key difference is that white criminals similar to the Coffees receive far less sympathy and support in our culture.

Substance abuse does terrible things to people. It does make one wonder whether things would have gone differently for this entire family if the grandfather had not been arrested and jailed for a small amount of pot.

I doubt it. They seem like genuinely bad human beings, all three of them.

 

[Derec]

That's far from obvious. It certainly wasn't obvious to Robert Peel, who knew a thing or two about policing.

Robert Peel, the 19th century British politician? How is he remotely relevant to this discussion?

Police in the UK to this day are not routinely able to use lethal force, because they aren't routinely issued with firearms.

And firearms are very strictly regulated in the UK and not nearly as common as in the US.

The police should almost never use deadly force, and it should be a very rare last resort that attracts extraordinary scrutiny if it does occur.

Compared to number of interactions, deadly force use by police is rare. And every shooting is investigated, as it should be.
But in a country with a constitutional (actually spelled out in the text, no "emanations from the penumbrae") right to bear arms, you would expect more deadly police shootings than in a country where firearms are very strictly regulated and few civilians have them.

Police should never casually kill the citizens they are duty bound to protect.

Who says they should "casually" kill people? Nobody. That's a straw man.
On the other hand, it is silly to expect police to not shoot perps who pose a danger to the officers or others.

 

[Toni]

I watched one video. In that video, I could make a case that Lyoya was grabbing for the taser--and could easily have been a reflex to stop it from hurting him.

It would not be a  reflex exactly, but I do acknowledge the possibility of what you say. I do not think it matters to the legality of the shooting though. We have the perp engaged in a protracted fight with the officer and grabbing at his weapon, no matter Lyoya's reason for doing so.

I've seen too many videos. I've read way too many posts of people defending things like two cops roaring up on a child playing in the park and shooting him to death in under 5 seconds.

Nobody here, myself included, was defended this. I have said that this was a series of fuckups by everyone involved. But a fuckup is not necessarily murder. And it also has nothing to do with the Lyoya situation. Schurr did not start blasting within 5 seconds of encountering Lyoya. Instead, Lyoya fought with Schurr for over a minute before Schurr used lethal force.

I don't have the stomach for it. Some of the actions of police are bad enough. To read other people defending them....

Seriously, Derec, what possesses you to link to different cases of (it's always some black guy) people who are involved in some police shooting--either being shot by or shooting at police? That person had zero bearing on this case.

Uhm, you are the one who brought up people "defending themselves" during police raids on their homes. I brought up these examples in direct response to your statements, to show you that in these cases the shooters often get away with it. For the record, I definitely think Coffee IV should have been convicted. I do not buy his story that he did not know it was police (police had already taken his father into custody at that point) and he has excessive history of violent crime, including violence against police.

I mean, it's great that Breonna Taylor's boyfriends charges were eventually dropped--there was ZERO reason to charge him!

He did shoot a police officer in the leg. The only reason his charges were dropped were his race and the anti-police insurrections throughout 2020.

And I'm certain he paid an extreme price for defending his girlfriend's home, even without the fact that BREONNA TAYLOR WAS KILLED by police breaking into her apartment in the middle of the night while she was sleeping.

They were serving a warrant. Not exactly the same as a "break in". It sucks that she was killed, of course, but you can't blame police officers for returning fire once somebody start shooting at them.

A member of my family works as a public defender in a very white region of a pretty darn white state. It might amaze you--or not--to know that many/most of his clients have family histories and criminal histories that are eerily similar to those of the Coffee family.

That does not surprise me at all. The key difference is that white criminals similar to the Coffees receive far less sympathy and support in our culture.

Substance abuse does terrible things to people. It does make one wonder whether things would have gone differently for this entire family if the grandfather had not been arrested and jailed for a small amount of pot.

I doubt it. They seem like genuinely bad human beings, all three of them.

Derec, I’m on the fly right now and I’m not sure that I could locate that thread about Tamir Rice if I had hours to spend on it, but indeed, there was at least one poster who absolutely DID defend the police. I’m not dragging up the name(s). It’s unfair because I can’t post a link. I thought I remembered you as among those who who did defend the police. I’m sorry if I was wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

Dude, e you understand that
1)if a black suspect fails to automatically kiss the arresting officer's ass, they are resisting arrest, and
2) if a black suspect does not submit to an officer's command within a nanosecond, they are fighting,

then you can understand the position of the police idolaters.

And 2 + 2 = 3.

Your response indicates that is true in your world.

This moron had plenty of opportunity to quit his stupidity, he just couldn't accept that he was going to jail. This wasn't a failure to kiss ass or any other such nonsense.

While he took no offensive action he kept taking illegal defensive actions that would turn a very minor offense (having the plate on the wrong car) into a serious one. Defensive actions weren't going to change the outcome, at some point he would have to either give up or take offensive actions.

Thank you for intentionally parodying a police idolator to help me make my point.

I watche