No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

[laughing dog]

Yes. It's not a job for cowards.
Like with firefighters, the job entails the risk that you could be seriously injured or even killed.
If people can't handle that, they should find a different career.

It's not a job for cowards, you are absolutely right.
At the same time, we should not expect cops to take on undue risk just to reduce risk to perps.

One would think that shooting someone in the BACK OF THE HEAD would not indicate the shooter was in a situation of "undue risk".

You might think so but that doesn't mean you're correct.

It used to be that cowardice was the presumption of shooting someone in the back until sufficient evidence showed otherwise.

Action is faster than reaction.

Are you seriously arguing that shooting someone in the back of the head is justified because of what they might do? Do you really how effed up that is?

The guy was trying to take the cop's taser and it appears the shot was provoked by his getting it. At that range he very well might be able to use it on the cop before the cop can react.

If that officer was fast enough to realize that "Action is faster than reaction" and shoot to kill in the back of the head, he was fast enough to back off.

"Action is faster than reaction" literally justifies any pre-emptive strike. It is carte blance for killing by the police.

Sorry, your apologia is unconvincing.

 

[Toni]

About 20 years or so ago, my inlaws, who lived in a very nice suburb of a major city were the victims of an armed in home invasion. One of the robbers forced my FIL to drive to withdraw money from a bank and the other held my MIL captive, a knife at her throat. Long story but my father in law was able to alert the police who set up SWAT teams, who in turn, rescued my MIL. Both of the robbers were taken into custody. No shots were fired. No one was hurt, despite both robbers being armed and holding two elderly people, one of whom was in a walker, captive for several hours. Thank heavens.

I'm writing this to point out that indeed, there are alternatives to shooting people in the back of the head during traffic stops. Or during the commission of an armed robbery or armed home invasion.

Most bad guys aren't interested in shooting it out with the police and surrender when they're looking down the barrel of an officer's gun even if they have their own weapon.

Sigh. Way to miss the point. The police managed to rescue someone held hostage WITHOUT FIRING A SHOT. I mean there were SWAT teams there! And no one was injured.

No, you miss the point. It's the very presence of that kind of firepower that is the reason it was resolved peacefully. The bad guys knew that resistance would only get them shot by a sniper, they gave up.

Fuck no that’s not the point. And exactly what racist shit is this that now that I’ve disclosed that the robbers are black you feel entitled to refer to them as boys? What the actual fuck.

They were outwitted by an 80 something year old man and his wife. Less intelligent t and more cowardly people would have compli d instead of finding a way to alert the police.

 

[Gun Nut]

I guess your narrative about "the left" defending any black person for any reason is false, then.

Except that several leftist posters on here have not disappointed and have defended Lyoya while attacking Schurr. Playball does not even think he should have been pulled over!
And it's not just this forum. It's also lefty media like NPR who write one-sided hagiographies like this one. He a good boy. Church every week. No mention of his revoked license, two warrants or all the criminal convictions, including for DUI and domestic violence.
So the left is doing what the left does. No surprises.

unless YOU want to bring it up (which you did) and talk about it (which you are)... That's fine. But I guess you need a new theory.

Just because I started the thread does not mean the left will not defend bad guys like St. Patrick of Lyoya simply because of the color of his skin.

hold on to those goalposts! you asked why no one started a discussion... so YOU started the discussion... NOW you claim there is some issue with people responding to the issue YOU raised.
I still see this as you being disappointed your theory asn;t supported... so you went and "poisoned the well", so to speak, to attempt to generate evidence for your theory... My response is simply that I am not buying it. You can't instigate a discussion and then comment that the existence of the discussion is "the problem"... unless YOU are the problem. That might just be the case.

 

[Gospel]

Did Lyoya us any offensive combat moves at all?
You must not know how to fight if you call that fighting.

Him not using any "combat moves" does not mean he wasn't fighting with the officer.

He was resisting arrest. Fighting is what MMA, Boxing & sometimes hockey & baseball legends do.

Edit: The only thing I'd concede on that is it is like WWE fighting, lots of athleticism is required but they aren't really fighting.

 

[Derec]

He was resisting arrest. Fighting is what MMA, Boxing & sometimes hockey & baseball legends do.

One of the strangest semantic nitpicks on this forum. Call it "fight", "physical struggle" or whatever you want, Lyoya should not have done it.

Edit: The only thing I'd concede on that is it is like WWE fighting, lots of athleticism is required but they aren't really fighting.

Athleticism is what may have done Lyoya in. If Schurr started to feel fatigued and uncertain that he could hold his own in this fight physical struggle much longer, he would be more inclined to use lethal force to end it, lest he risk Lyoya overpowering him and taking not only his taser but also his gun.

Perps taking an officer's gun during a fight physical struggle happens sometimes, and often it does not end well for the cop.
And as they say, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!

 

[laughing dog]

And as they say, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!

Pretty sure "they" includes Timonthy Loehman and excludes Tamir Rice and his family.

 

[Elixir]

If Schurr started to feel fatigued and uncertain that he could hold his own in this fight physical struggle much longer, he would be more inclined to use lethal force to end it,

Another good reason he should never have started it. Cops keep the option of “ending it” front of mind, regardless of actual threat level.
I actually had one walk up to the window of a car, and think he saw a joint on the passenger seat. He suddenly dropped into a ready stance, hand on gun and screamed “you make one move and I’ll blow your fucking head off!”
I had the wherewithal to not move. Ended up with a ticket, but there were witnesses so I brought it to court and raised the issue of departmental liability if official policy included threatening to blow the heads of suspected pot smokers, and individual liability if it was not department policy. The judge declined to render an opinion but invited me to obtain counsel to pursue it. I thanked him very much, paid the ticket fine and got tremendous satisfaction watching that cop squirm.

 

[Toni]

The only time you could legally resist is if you reasonably believe it is not actually an arrest--either that it's kidnappers using police uniforms as a ruse, or that the officer actually plans to murder you.

The latter isn't a particularly unreasonable belief for black men in the USA.

How many have been killed in police custody??

And resisting arrest isn't a capital crime.

Self defense isn't a sentence.

Apparently it is, if you're black.

 

[TSwizzle]

Perps taking an officer's gun during a fight physical struggle happens sometimes, and often it does not end well for the cop.
And as they say, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!

How soon people forget these things;

A police officer who was killed at a northern Illinois hotel pleaded for her life before a man allegedly shot her with her own gun after she was disarmed during a struggle, a prosecutor said. Bradley police Sgt. Marlene Rittmanic and her partner, Officer Tyler Bailey, were shot on Dec. 29 while investigating a noise complaint regarding dogs barking in a parked car outside a Comfort Inn.

News

 

[ZiprHead]

Perps taking an officer's gun during a fight physical struggle happens sometimes, and often it does not end well for the cop.
And as they say, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!

How soon people forget these things;

A police officer who was killed at a northern Illinois hotel pleaded for her life before a man allegedly shot her with her own gun after she was disarmed during a struggle, a prosecutor said. Bradley police Sgt. Marlene Rittmanic and her partner, Officer Tyler Bailey, were shot on Dec. 29 while investigating a noise complaint regarding dogs barking in a parked car outside a Comfort Inn.

News

 

[Gospel]

He was resisting arrest. Fighting is what MMA, Boxing & sometimes hockey & baseball legends do.

One of the strangest semantic nitpicks on this forum. Call it "fight", "physical struggle" or whatever you want, Lyoya should not have done it.

Edit: The only thing I'd concede on that is it is like WWE fighting, lots of athleticism is required but they aren't really fighting.

Athleticism is what may have done Lyoya in. If Schurr started to feel fatigued and uncertain that he could hold his own in this fight physical struggle much longer, he would be more inclined to use lethal force to end it, lest he risk Lyoya overpowering him and taking not only his taser but also his gun.

Perps taking an officer's gun during a fight physical struggle happens sometimes, and often it does not end well for the cop.
And as they say, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!

Bruh, you adding way too much to this portion of the discussion. The dude was resisting arrest. You and I both know what fighting is. It's not semantics. Resisting arrest definitely led to him getting shot in the back of the head. Now whether or not that's punishable is up to officials and their application of the law. It's just how things work Derec. You know that right? Being a law-abiding citizen you should know that investigations follow.

 

[Gospel]

Perps taking an officer's gun during a fight physical struggle happens sometimes, and often it does not end well for the cop.
And as they say, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!

How soon people forget these things;

A police officer who was killed at a northern Illinois hotel pleaded for her life before a man allegedly shot her with her own gun after she was disarmed during a struggle, a prosecutor said. Bradley police Sgt. Marlene Rittmanic and her partner, Officer Tyler Bailey, were shot on Dec. 29 while investigating a noise complaint regarding dogs barking in a parked car outside a Comfort Inn.

News

How soon people forget these things.

 

[Gospel]

And as they say, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!

Pretty sure "they" includes Timonthy Loehman and excludes Tamir Rice and his family.

The better safe than sorry principle only applies to law enforcement in Derec's world.

 

[Derec]

Bruh, you adding way too much to this portion of the discussion. The dude was resisting arrest. You and I both know what fighting is. It's not semantics.

People use the word "fight" in a much broader context than organized fighting sports.

Resisting arrest definitely led to him getting shot in the back of the head. Now whether or not that's punishable is up to officials and their application of the law. It's just how things work Derec. You know that right? Being a law-abiding citizen you should know that investigations follow.

I do not have a problem with police shootings being investigated. I have a problem with people jumping to conclusions and automatically taking Lyoya's side just because he was black. Not only on here, but in the media too. Like the NPR article that went on and on how great Patrick Lyoya was and never bothered to mention his extensive criminal record. And not just the media, but politicians too. Like Congresswoman Brenda Lawrence (D-MI) who called Lyoya "an American of great distinction".

Whether or not she thinks that the shooting was justified or not, given everything we know about Lyoya, nobody can claim he was "an American of great distinction".

 

[Derec]

[some random YouTube video from Oklahoma]

What is the relevance of this video to the Lyoya case, if any?

 

[Derec]

Apparently it is, if you're black.

Nothing to do with race. Had the driver been white and acted the same way, he would have also suffered from a 9mm brain hemorrhage.

What is different is that because he is black there is a lot of media coverage. Eulogized by a nationally (in)famous preacher man. National politician calls him "an American of great distinction". And last but not least, the almost certain multimillion dollar settlement, courtesy of the feckless Grand Rapids city council. None of this would be happening if everything else was the same, but the driver was white.

 

[Derec]

Another good reason he should never have started it.

I agree. He (Patrick Lyoya) should never have started it.
Because, make no mistake, he started it.
He started it by getting super drunk (0.29%) and deciding to drive a car with mismatched plates with a revoked license.
And when he got out of the car even though he knows the procedure well (since he was arrested so many times).
And when he decided to run.
And finally when he decided to fight and not surrender when the cop caught him.

One could call this: the Increasingly Poor Decisions of Patrick Lyoya ...

Cops keep the option of “ending it” front of mind, regardless of actual threat level.

What some generic "cops" may or may not do is irrelevant to the case of this particular cop and this particular case. And in this case, there was a significant threat level.

I actually had one walk up to the window of a car, and think he saw a joint on the passenger seat. He suddenly dropped into a ready stance, hand on gun and screamed “you make one move and I’ll blow your fucking head off!”

Cool story, bro.

The war on drugs sucks, but the Lyoya shooting is very different. You didn't try to fight the cop or grab any of his weapons. But you know that very well.

 

[Derec]

Pretty sure "they" includes Timonthy Loehman and excludes Tamir Rice and his family.

Any particular reason to keep derailing with this tragic case that has been discussed to death on here?

 

[Derec]

hold on to those goalposts! you asked why no one started a discussion... so YOU started the discussion... NOW you claim there is some issue with people responding to the issue YOU raised.

No goalpost shifting. Regardless of who started the thread, many of the leftist posters on here are predictably defending and supporting Lyoya. Some don't even people like him to be pulled over as they think that amounts to "driving while black".

I still see this as you being disappointed your theory asn;t supported...

BS. On multiple fronts. Including the misuse of the word "theory".

My response is simply that I am not buying it. You can't instigate a discussion and then comment that the existence of the discussion is "the problem"... unless YOU are the problem. That might just be the case.

I never said that "the existence of discussion" was a problem. I like discussions.
But the lefists on here and elsewhere (NPR, MI SecState, local Congresswoman) are predictable in their support for this serial drunk driver and baby mama beater simply because of what hue his skin is. And it is right for me to point that out.

 

[Derec]

Fuck no that’s not the point. And exactly what racist shit is this that now that I’ve disclosed that the robbers are black you feel entitled to refer to them as boys? What the actual fuck.

He did not say "boys". He said "guys". Is that non-PC now all of a sudden?