How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

Jason: if you don't like people "strawmanning" you, then stop being so vague and state your position.

Libertarian Exclusion Principle states you can't both know if someone is a Libertarian and their position on something, at the same time.

Libertarian Exclusion Principle states that if you think a libertarian is wrong then his position is whatever you say it is and his actual position is excluded.

You just aren't as good at this as others. The point is, you never explain your position. You make vague posts, at best... and then whine when people can't decipher your vagueness.

I've explained my position in some depth. I've explained that non-intervention doesn't mean I support the other side. I've explained that just because I don't think the Ukrainians are "the good guys" doesn't mean I think Ukraine invaded Russia. I've explained that countries aren't all completely isolated from each other because there is this thing called "trade". I've explained that the US government should care more about the well-being of the people of the US that the oligarchs of Ukraine. At every explanation I've been told "no, that isn't your position, this is your position." That is the libertarian exclusion principle in action.

 

[ZiprHead]

I've explained that the US government should care more about the well-being of the people of the US

This makes no sense in Libertopia. In Libertopia it's not the government's job to take care of people. That's the real Libertarian Exclusion Plinciple.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I've explained that the US government should care more about the well-being of the people of the US

This makes no sense in Libertopia. In Libertopia it's not the government's job to take care of people. That's the real Libertarian Exclusion Plinciple.

Even a libertarian government has a responsibility to the people of the government. Your statement of "you don't believe X you believe Y" is a perfect example of the libertarian exclusion principle - actual libertarian positions are excluded by people telling libertarians what they believe.

 

[Jayjay]

Captive medic’s bodycam shows firsthand horror of Mariupol

KHARKIV, Ukraine (AP) — A celebrated Ukrainian medic recorded her time in Mariupol on a data card no bigger than a thumbnail, smuggled out to the world in a tampon. Now she is in Russian hands, at a time when Mariupol itself is on the verge of falling.

apnews.com

Footage from Mariupol smuggled inside a tampon. But I think they should've left that detail out of the article. Not because it makes harder to get more information out of the occupied areas, but because now the Russian soldiers and their collaborators will probably start to systematically check women's tampons for contraband.

 

[lpetrich]

Putin ‘had to keep explaining things to Trump’, ex-White House aide says | Donald Trump | The Guardian

"Fiona Hill, a former national security council official, said Russian leader grew frustrated with Trump: ‘Putin doesn’t like to do that’"

From Fiona Hill on Russia, Ukraine, and the Outcome of the War - YouTube

“You could see that he got frustrated many times with President Trump. Even though he loves to be able to spin his own version of events, he wants to have predictability in the person that he’s engaging with.”

...
At the Chicago event, Hill said Putin “thought that somebody like Biden, who’s a trans-Atlanticist, who knows all about Nato, who actually knows where Ukraine is, and actually knows something about the history, and is very steeped in international affairs, would be the right person to engage with as opposed to somebody that you have to explain everything to all the time, honestly”.

The Russian president, Hill said, might still be “waiting for us to sue for peace, [to] negotiate away Ukraine”.

So Vladimir Putin thinks that Joe Biden is a much more competent leader than Donald Trump.

Hill was a co-author of a well-received book on Putin. Last year, promoting a memoir, There Is Nothing for You Here, she told the BBC that in Helsinki she considered faking a medical emergency to interrupt Trump’s remarks.

“My initial thought was just ‘How can I end this?’” she said.

Seems rather desperate. She had the right idea, given Trump's Putin-loving at that event.

Trump has attacked Hill publicly, calling her “a deep state stiff – with a nice accent”. In April, after Hill compared him to Putin, Trump told the New York Times: “She doesn’t know the first thing she’s talking about. If she didn’t have the accent she would be nothing.”

Regarding Putin’s view of Trump, in 2020 Hill told the Guardian: “Trump just wants to sit down with the guy, whoever it is, and create personal chemistry and then everyone else works out the details. He wanted to treat Putin the way he treated Xi [Jinping of China] or [Benjamin] Netanyahu [of Israel]. He wanted to be able to pick up the phone and talk to them.

Or Kim Jong Un of North Korea, it seems.

“Putin doesn’t operate like that. Putin takes translators with him for every occasion. The Russians are incredibly organised. They take advantage of every opportunity, every vulnerability, every open door they can walk through.”

 

[Harry Bosch]

Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."

So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population

After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.

Jason: if you don't like people "strawmanning" you, then stop being so vague and state your position.

Libertarian Exclusion Principle states you can't both know if someone is a Libertarian and their position on something, at the same time.

Libertarian Exclusion Principle states that if you think a libertarian is wrong then his position is whatever you say it is and his actual position is excluded.

You just aren't as good at this as others. The point is, you never explain your position. You make vague posts, at best... and then whine when people can't decipher your vagueness.

I've explained my position in some depth. I've explained that non-intervention doesn't mean I support the other side. I've explained that just because I don't think the Ukrainians are "the good guys" doesn't mean I think Ukraine invaded Russia. I've explained that countries aren't all completely isolated from each other because there is this thing called "trade". I've explained that the US government should care more about the well-being of the people of the US that the oligarchs of Ukraine. At every explanation I've been told "no, that isn't your position, this is your position." That is the libertarian exclusion principle in action.

Your post makes zero sense. You don't like the Ukrainian Oligarchs. Fine. You don't like those oligarch meanies who now own rubble and ruin. Fine. Do you give a fucking shit about their families? How about all the innocent civilians? Their children? I donated money to a group that rescued hundreds of children dying of cancer that was finally evacuated. Their story was heart breaking. Do you give a shit about them? Do you give a shit about all the environmental damage that Russia is causing? Do you give a shit about the millions of people world wide who will suffer because Russia won't let Ukraine export their grain? How about the world wide inflation that is affecting the world? Have you been to the store lately?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Your post makes zero sense. You don't like the Ukrainian Oligarchs. Fine. You don't like those oligarch meanies who now own rubble and ruin. Fine. Do you give a fucking shit about their families? How about all the innocent civilians? Their children? I donated money to a group that rescued hundreds of children dying of cancer that was finally evacuated. Their story was heart breaking. Do you give a shit about them? Do you give a shit about all the environmental damage that Russia is causing? Do you give a shit about the millions of people world wide who will suffer because Russia won't let Ukraine export their grain? How about the world wide inflation that is affecting the world? Have you been to the store lately?

Ask me when I was a young child and I probably would have said, "What?" Obviously at that point in my life I would have had little or no regard or appreciation for those things. It would not have been my fault, just a brute fact.

 

[Jayjay]

So, Russia has recently broken through Ukrainian defenses in and near Popasna. Looks pretty bad. Maybe the tide isn't turning in Ukraine's favor after all, and Russia is getting a second wind.

All the more reason to keep the weapons flowing.

 

[steve_bank]

We don't need any negative vibes.

 

[Elixir]

We don't need any negative vibes.

Realism leads to correct approaches. But despite appearances I’m not sure there’s any actual turning of the tide. Russians can take, but have yet to demonstrate that they can hold.
Right now, the increased flow of weaponry to Ukraine is just beginning to be deployed, and it looks like not a moment too soon.
Russia has the ability to apply lots of force, but that ability is diminishing. They’re now calling for 40 yr olds to enlist go fight “the Nazis”, which bespeaks both a shortage of soldiers and an inability to field experienced fighters.
Morale is a huge issue, and if things get any worse due to Ukranians’ use of newly acquired weapons, it could get debilitating in short order.
Personally I’m still befuddled as to what Putler thinks he can gain from this exercise in pointless cruelty.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I’m still befuddled as to what Putler thinks he can gain from this exercise in pointless cruelty.

Ask Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. Baby Hitler is probably more like Al Capone but he has a lot of those guys in him too.

 

[steve_bank]

In the end Hitler ordered total mobilzaion. Kids e were handed guns. He ordered a scorched Earth Germnay. Fortunantly it was not carried out. Hitler said with the loss Germans did not deserve to survive.

Putin is not hard to understand. I just watched a short series overview of the history of Rome. Utter brutality by Rome and its adversaries over centuries. Get and hold power by any means. Ends justify the means.

Machiavellianism is a personality trait that denotes cunningness, the ability to be manipulative, and a drive to use whatever means necessary to gain power. Machiavellianism is one of the traits that forms the Dark Triad, along with narcissism and psychopathy.Dec 31, 2020

The avove fits Trunp as well.

I'd say the western alliance standing up for freedom and rejcting the old barbarism and conquest is something new in history. France, Germany, and the Brits cooperating as allies. I think Hell is finally freezing over.

All this has given me a deeper appreciation of knowing history and its importance. Anyone who opposes the NATO unity over here is ignorant of even recent history.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

All this has given me a deeper appreciation of knowing history and its importance. Anyone who opposes the NATO unity over here is ignorant of even recent history.

I would just stop at ignorant, don't think it needs chewed any finer.

 

[barbos]

Nazis in AzovSteel have given up. Pay attention to tattoos.
These are the people you support.

 

[barbos]

He ordered a scorched Earth Germnay

Pentagon gave the same orders. There is a picture of blown up (by ukrainians) bridge.
it was not blown to slow down russian advancement it was blown to dust because they knew they were not planning on coming back.

 

[Copernicus]

Omigosh! The guy is back because Mariupol finally fell, after Russia declared it had fallen several times. And he claims he has video of someone with neo-fascist tattoos that allegedly came from among those arrested. This is proof that they were all Nazis! So pathetic. He continues to present propaganda that impresses Russians as if it will have the same effect on people outside of his information bubble.

Meanwhile, Russian military command, doubtless under orders from Fearless Leader, continues to believe that attacking civilian targets will somehow cause Ukrainians to give up in despair. The following is a CNN report (presumably something that barbos is no longer allowed to see), which shows a Russian missile attack on a cultural center in Lazova, Ukraine, which is in Kharkiv oblast south of Kharkiv.

Russian strike Zelensky called 'absolute evil' caught on camera​

 

[Jayjay]

Nazis in AzovSteel have given up. Pay attention to tattoos.
These are the people you support.

And these are the people you support:

The first one is the Dmitry Utkin, GRU officer and founder of Wagner group. The second guy is Dmitry Rogozin, current head of Roscosmos and former deputy prime minister and Russia's ambassador to NATO. The last one is Alexei Milchakov, a Russian nazi who "volunteered" to fight in Donbas in 2014, along with many others.

There's plenty of nazis on both side. The Russian ones seem to be in command positions, while Ukrainians are just soldiers.

 

[barbos]

Jayjay,
Whataboutism much?

I only recognize Rogozin 20-25 years ago.
The rest is first, not known. Second, definitely not in any commanding position and I highly doubt are even in Donbas right now. Whereas your nazis were murdering russian and ukrainian population just a few weeks ago. Not to mention 8 years since 2014. And they ARE in commanding positions. They are 100% fucking nazis with swastika and Hitler tattoos and are in Ukrainan armed forces. Russian army does not have any of that shit. Moreover, unlike your governments Russian does not condone that shit. Yes, your governments literally say "nazis are good because they fight russians"

Rogozin early on was a nationalist, so was........ Navalny. Now-days, as I explained to you before, nationalist movement is more fringe than in Finland.

 

[barbos]

Speaking of nazis. Early in the conflict, russian refugees from ukrainian controlled Eastern Ukraine who ended up in Russia would often fight with refugees from DNR/LNR saying that Russia attacked them. After a while and a lot of new refugees from ukrainian controlled territories had came in, all these fights stopped, because newly arrived refugees explained to them in no uncertain terms that it is Ukrainian army who is bombing and murdering their own population. Nobody in Ukraine actually believes western propaganda garbage.

 

[Copernicus]

Speaking of nazis. Easly in the conflict, russian refugees from ukrainian controlled Eastern Ukraine who ended up in Russia would often fight with refugees from DNR/LNR saying that Russia attacked them. After a while and a lot of new refugees from ukrainian controlled territories came in, all these fights stopped, because newly arrived refugees explained to them that it is Ukrainian army who is bombing and murdering their own population. Nobody in Ukraine actually believes western propaganda garbage.

No links to a source, of course, but we already know why. Barbos doesn't really have much access anymore to Western sources, and he doesn't want to believe that he is being lied to by Russian authorities, even though it is obvious that they are censoring Western media for a reason--to hide the truth from Russians like him. So he just spouts the obvious claptrap that the Ukrainian army was "bombing and murdering their own population". Why would they do that? I suppose it is enough just to call them Nazis and show a picture of some guys allegedly captured in Mariupol with neo-Nazi tattoos. (All of them looked particularly well-fed after weeks of struggling on rations, but let's assume these guys really were Ukrainian resisters.) Show him pictures of Russian neo-Nazis, and he shrugs them off as insignificant, implying that only his propaganda video is evidence of widespread right wing fascism among Ukrainian defenders. (BTW, it violates the Geneva Conventions to put POWs on display that way, but none of those in the video looked particularly fearful. All seemed happy to show off the tattoos for the cameras.) Meanwhile, we have full access to both the uncensored records of the brutal atrocities committed by Russians and the censored Russian media. There is no censorship in the West, because the authorities do not fear of the truth there.