When you break it down: is atheism unappealing?

[southernhybrid]

I always thought that the Bible god didn't want humans to taste the "tree of knowledge". In other words, if you learn too much and think too much, the concept of an all powerful god who loves his creation is stupid. When I told my church friends that we had been deceived by the teachings of the church, one said to me, "You think too much. Don't think so much about it". That's religion to me. The more you think about it, the nuttier it seems. It's sort of like the Wizard of Oz. People thought he was all powerful, and then they discovered the wizard was just a man selling an idea.

I never try to convince anyone to give up their beliefs, if they find comfort in them. I don't understand why people believe such nonsense but whatever helps one navigate life, as long as it doesn't harm others, is fine with me. My neighbor burns a candle to bring love and peace. It's never seemed to work, but it seems to comfort her. There is no harm in burning a candle that helps you cope.

It s interesting to start off the thought exercise knowing that there’s an imbalance in the equations. I felt as I read this that the lsit of the “aceptance of evolution” was the straw man of it that religionists believe that we believe - not what we really believe.

To wit:

Anything negative that happens to you is primarily random and indifferent
Your well-being is entirely up to you, and if you fail it's because you failed / aren't skilled enough

These are incompatible. First they say it’s randome then they say we blame ourselfs. But I don’t agree that atheists think that. It’s what religionists feel, not what atheists feel. When random things happen to us, WE know they are random. We get that. We don’t immediately launch self blame. Sometimes random bad obstacles happen. We don’t move to guilt and self doubt. Fixing random bad things is up to us if we can or want to. But they are not our fault.

I think it's more of a question of the religious ideology in opposition to the lack of one. God belief provides a type of psychological cover that's not available to the atheist. We have our own hacks too, but religion is a pretty available, and immediately obvious solution to hardship. Where the lack of religion just looks like a competitive, lonely struggle to a lot of people.

That doesn't mean you're wrong about the Atheist position, but I think that's largely how it appears to believers. Which explains why religion is such a comfort, why so many turn to it when they face problems, and why it appeals.

For example, I have a younger cousin whose life is an absolute mess. Both of his parents are alcoholics, he has fetal alcohol syndrome, and his employability has been borderline his whole life. At one point a few years ago he turned to, and found a lot of comfort in, Christianity. Somehow this made his life acceptable. Right or wrong, I can't envision trying to convince him that he shouldn't hold on to those beliefs. There is no other real comfort in his life.

I agree that religion does comfort some people, but it causes a lot of distress for some people too. For example, conservative Christians usually believe that those outside their version of Christianity are headed for hell. Some Catholics hold similar views. I used to feel sorry for my mother because according to her religion, I'm going to hell to be tortured. However, she grew wise with age. She told my husband when she was in her early 80s that there was no way she could believe that I was going to hell. I felt good for her.

I can't imagine believing such nonsense, but if I did, it would be painful to think that friends and family members would be punished eternally for not sharing my beliefs. That's an element of the beauty of atheism. We don't see other people as headed for some terrible punishment due to their beliefs.

Religion is often like a crutch that some need to help them navigate the difficulties of life. Some are just drawn to mythology and others need a community of like minded people. And, sometimes religion provides an organized outlet to do charitable works. I accept that religion can be helpful or destructive, depending on the nature of the mythology.

The only thing that I might miss is having a community. I think having a community of like minded people probably keeps some Christians in the fold. I've been a member of many atheist or humanist groups in real life, but we aren't very good at keeping the cats herded, so I've seen some of my groups fade away.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I think of the convocation before the Indy 500, a light religious prayer asking for god to protect the drivers. When in fact, God has been hit or miss over the years. That in fact, it was science and engineering that saved the lives of Tom Sneva and Kevin Cogan (specifically at Indy), and prevented greater injury to so many other drivers. Eddie Sachs, Gordon Smiley, Scott Brayton weren't as lucky though.

But every year, they keep asking for God's protection. No thought or thanks to those who put in the Safer Barrier, designed the cockpit (Grosjean's life was saved because of all sorts of tech in his F1 crash), fire suits, etc...

What's the takeaway lesson? For me it's that people are superstitious and still like to believe in magic. Asking a magic creature to protect me from danger is evidence enough. It just feels good I suppose, like when I feel good watching a movie or reading a book. But I can feel good without living my life as if the magic is real. I can switch modes. Some people cannot.

In the case mentioned earlier by rousseau it would be interesting to ask such a person if he really believes in all the magic or is just finding comfort in the community and the act of pretending.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It's pretty obvious that there is a lot of projecting on the part of believers. How else would they know their god's thoughts and motivations? I'd be ashamed to think that the only thing keeping me from murder, rape, theft, etc. was belief in a magic spaceman.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's the trouble. God is given credit for other people's hard work, and a pass when stuff goes horribly wrong. People pray to God, looking for answers, stuff, guidance, assurance... and pretty much regardless of the outcome, they'll pray again. As if the act of prayer is what they need to get that level of comfort that they aren't a meaningless speck in a universe that will never know they existed in a tiny amount of galactic time.

And I'm fine with that. We all need our comforts.

But it is when that transitions to moral crusades because their god said some shit 2700 years ago to a guy from Ur... need to press pause.

 

[skepticalbip]

That's the trouble. God is given credit for other people's hard work, and a pass when stuff goes horribly wrong. People pray to God, looking for answers, stuff, guidance, assurance... and pretty much regardless of the outcome, they'll pray again. As if the act of prayer is what they need to get that level of comfort that they aren't a meaningless speck in a universe that will never know they existed in a tiny amount of galactic time.

And I'm fine with that. We all need our comforts.

But it is when that transitions to moral crusades because their god said some shit 2700 years ago to a guy from Ur... need to press pause.

Yup. And some people rely on their lucky penny. I find it an odd quirk of humanity how much faith some put in their particular talisman be it a god, a penny, or any other magic charm. Most are harmless to others but for some reason some of those with a god fetish want to impose their belief on others. I have not yet encountered anyone with a 'lucky penny' that tried to convince me to also believe in its magic powers.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's the trouble. God is given credit for other people's hard work, and a pass when stuff goes horribly wrong. People pray to God, looking for answers, stuff, guidance, assurance... and pretty much regardless of the outcome, they'll pray again. As if the act of prayer is what they need to get that level of comfort that they aren't a meaningless speck in a universe that will never know they existed in a tiny amount of galactic time.

And I'm fine with that. We all need our comforts.

But it is when that transitions to moral crusades because their god said some shit 2700 years ago to a guy from Ur... need to press pause.

Yup. And some people rely on their lucky penny. I find it an odd quirk of humanity how much faith some put in their particular talisman be it a god, a penny, or any other magic charm. Most are harmless to others but for some reason some of those with a god fetish want to impose their belief on others. I have not yet encountered anyone with a 'lucky penny' that tried to convince me to also believe in its magic powers.

skepticalbip: What is that?
someone else: My lucky penny.
skepticalbip: Heh.
someone else: I worship it.
skepticalbip: ???
someone else: It told a person 2700 years ago that gay sex was an abomination.
skepticalbip: Really? That US currency penny existed 2700 years ago and said gay sex was an abomination?
someone else: And eating pork!
skepticalbip: *gets up to leave*

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But atheism provides nothing to find appealing, being merely a binary switch. Much like theism (does that even exist) doesn't either. It is the rules or guidance that matters.

While I wasn't on a road of chaos without religion before being a teenager, reading the Tao Te Ching and Eightfold Path helped provide a guidance about how naturalism can have an order and meaning without supernaturalism. That was an important find for me. Buddhism (well maybe not only Buddhism) creates a non-arbitrary moral code that is free of bias that expands merely beyond a bare tribute to arbitrary set of rules (from food, beverages, genders, etc...), but an understanding of how all of ones life can impact others, and you don't need reincarnation for that to make sense.

Perhaps the question is better asked, can the lack of theism and all of its empty promises be appealing? The answer for me is yes, but it isn't a defaulted answer. Understanding life and meaning or how there can be meaning without supernatural meaning (or how things can matter when they don't actually matter in the end) isn't as simple as just being an atheist.

 

[ramoss]

The chief attraction of religion, at least its main stream Abrahamic varieties, is the prospect of life after death. Atheism precludes that possibility.

Not necessarily. One can still believe in some form of an afterlife that is not related to any gods.

This is quite true. Frankly I am smitten by the fact that every bit of me is eternal, you might as well say immortal. I may go to pieces but I'll never go away.

This is what I prefer to believe, AKA faith based beliefs.

Living things are animated by a little spark of the Divine. That's the difference between a living thing and a non-living thing. Including the difference between a living human being and their corpse. While we're alive we're a combination of the material(our bodies) and the spiritual(our spirit or soul).

So, how does that work? This would imply that our awakened self is the spirit, but when the meat (brain) gets seriously injured, a person can change greatly (completely). So this would imply the meat defines who we are and the spirit is just a fancy thing with absolutely no meaning or purpose.

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

 

[1Heidegger1!]

I have no problem with Jesus as a messiah. If he returns and wants to get into politics, then let him win a democratic election and receive a time in office subject to term limits as we would require of any politician.

 

[Elixir]

I have no problem with Jesus as a messiah. If he returns and wants to get into politics, then let him win a democratic election and receive a time in office subject to term limits as we would require of any politician.

He better damn well have ID that proves he’s a ‘Murkin.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

How is it "chemistry?"

 

[ramoss]

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

How is it "chemistry?"

LIfe is nothing but chemical reactions. Interrupted the chain of chemical reactions, no more life.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

How is it "chemistry?"

LIfe is nothing but chemical reactions. Interrupted the chain of chemical reactions, no more life.

Right, I get that. "Spirit" would seem to be something less than chemistry unless you're just talking neural chemistry.

 

[TomC]

I have no problem with Jesus as a messiah.

Nor do I.
I'm pretty sure Jesus got executed by the Romans because He was a Messiah.

The Messiah is a Jewish warrior king, Anointed by God, to overthrow pagan oppression and return the Jews to their rightful place as a world power. Even the Romans knew that. So they treated Him like the violent terrorist/freedom fighter He was. Crucifixion.
Romans did that a lot. And there were lots of Messiahs back then. At least a few of them must have been named Jesus.

There you have it. Jesus the Messiah. Eventually a legend of The Christ built up. Paul added a bunch of paganism, like demigod and the pantheon of The Trinity. It became very popular, amongst the pagans. Amongst Jews, unsurprisingly, not so much. Because they both knew what a Messiah is and also that Jesus came nowhere close.
Tom

 

[ramoss]

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

How is it "chemistry?"

LIfe is nothing but chemical reactions. Interrupted the chain of chemical reactions, no more life.

Right, I get that. "Spirit" would seem to be something less than chemistry unless you're just talking neural chemistry.

What, exactly do you mean when you say 'spirit'

 

[1Heidegger1!]

I have no problem with Jesus as a messiah.

Nor do I.
I'm pretty sure Jesus got executed by the Romans because He was a Messiah.

The Messiah is a Jewish warrior king, Anointed by God, to overthrow pagan oppression and return the Jews to their rightful place as a world power. Even the Romans knew that. So they treated Him like the violent terrorist/freedom fighter He was. Crucifixion.
Romans did that a lot. And there were lots of Messiahs back then. At least a few of them must have been named Jesus.

There you have it. Jesus the Messiah. Eventually a legend of The Christ built up. Paul added a bunch of paganism, like demigod and the pantheon of The Trinity. It became very popular, amongst the pagans. Amongst Jews, unsurprisingly, not so much. Because they both knew what a Messiah is and also that Jesus came nowhere close.
Tom

Jesus was apocalyptic. He was a messiah in the sense that he thought he and the twelve would rule over the Kingdom of God once it arrived on earth. He didn't think it in the sense that he would raise an army and overthrow the Romans. See Ehrman here: https://ehrmanblog.org/jesus-claim-to-be-the-messiah/

 

[bilby]

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

How is it "chemistry?"

LIfe is nothing but chemical reactions. Interrupted the chain of chemical reactions, no more life.

Right, I get that. "Spirit" would seem to be something less than chemistry unless you're just talking neural chemistry.

Spirits are typically around 40% C₂H₅OH, with most of the remaining 60% being plain old H₂O.

 

[ramoss]

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

How is it "chemistry?"

LIfe is nothing but chemical reactions. Interrupted the chain of chemical reactions, no more life.

Right, I get that. "Spirit" would seem to be something less than chemistry unless you're just talking neural chemistry.

Spirits are typically around 40% C₂H₅OH, with most of the remaining 60% being plain old H₂O.

That's the best kind of spirit, but that is using an alternate definition from the topic.

 

[skepticalbip]

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

How is it "chemistry?"

LIfe is nothing but chemical reactions. Interrupted the chain of chemical reactions, no more life.

Right, I get that. "Spirit" would seem to be something less than chemistry unless you're just talking neural chemistry.

What, exactly do you mean when you say 'spirit'

The word 'spirit' has several meanings. Some like describing alcohol or a group's enthusiasm make sense. However, for those who mean some 'essential' or conscious part of themselves that continues on after they die, it is a word describing the hope that they rely on to ease their fear of death.

 

[ramoss]

The term 'spirit' seems vague. It seems to me that the term spirit is metaphysical, and has no real definition. Its just chemistry.

How is it "chemistry?"

LIfe is nothing but chemical reactions. Interrupted the chain of chemical reactions, no more life.

Right, I get that. "Spirit" would seem to be something less than chemistry unless you're just talking neural chemistry.

What, exactly do you mean when you say 'spirit'

The word 'spirit' has several meanings. Some like describing alcohol or a group's enthusiasm make sense. However, for those who mean some 'essential' or conscious part of themselves that continues on after they die, it is a word describing the hope that they rely on to ease their fear of death.

In other words, a metaphysical concept that they can not accurately define, or show exists.