Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[ramoss]

I think legally the man usually ends up paying support for the woman and baby.

The man contributes (if they aren't together), but very often, it is minuscule to the cost of the child. I have also seen men get to raise the child.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ovulation is involuntary.
Sperm production is involuntary.
A woman allowing sperm near her vagina is voluntary.
A man ejaculating sperm near a woman's vagina is voluntary.

So where does that lead you then regarding responsibility then? The implication from your post is that the male and female are both responsible. But as usual, the term "responsible" is being discussed without actually addressing the consequences of said responsibility. What are the consequences?

 

[Toni]

By the way, I assume both laughing dog's response and Rhea's response are a reference to forcible rape. Every single respondent has made clear that forcible rape is not 'voluntary', and I don't think it's voluntary either. By the same token, when a 13 year old boy ejaculates into a an adult teacher who has groomed him, I don't think that's 'voluntary'.

So, back to my point. The production of eggs is involuntary. So is the production of sperm. The release of that sperm into a vagina is also voluntary by both parties, barring cases of rape, which I will have to append to every sentence now as everybody is determined to argue in bad faith.

Any adult having sex with any 13 year old is rape.

The release of sperm in or near a vagina is not necessarily voluntary on the part of both individuals, even excluding rape. The man can and some do lie about pulling out, using a condom or having had a vasectomy or being sterile from some other cause.

 

[No Robots]

A real man takes full responsibility for all of his actions and all the consequences of his actions. If a man gets a woman pregnant and she gets an abortion, that's on him. If he doesn't like abortion, then he should stop fucking women who might not want his brat.

 

[steve_bank]

The question is broader today.

A sing;le woman can go to a sperm bank and get impregnated can she not? Or a single man can adopt or pay a female surrogate to carry a baby if he can afford it.

With the passing of the tradition of the nuclear family child support increasingly becomes a govt and tax issue. Day care is now a 'crisis'. The old norm was to start a family the guy was supposed to be able to make a living and the wife took care of the hids during the day. There was a social stigma to single parenthood by accident or by choice.

 

[Toni]

Not necessarily. Consent ("allowing") may not be voluntary - please no pedantic excuses.

What on earth are you talking about?

You're construed as having consented when a moral philosopher's hypothetical stand-in for you would in the philosopher's opinion have rationally consented, if she were behind a Veil of Ignorance in the Original Position?

The argument so far:

Me: Men voluntarily ejaculate near vaginas is the equivalent action of women voluntarily allowing ejaculate into their vaginas.
Them: Sometimes men ejaculate without permission or rape women, therefore nothing a woman does is ever voluntary. Also, rape.

Nope.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The question is broader today.

A sing;le woman can go to a sperm bank and get impregnated can she not? Or a single man can adopt or pay a female surrogate to carry a baby if he can afford it.

With the passing of the tradition of the nuclear family child support increasingly becomes a govt and tax issue. Day care is now a 'crisis'. The old norm was to start a family the guy was supposed to be able to make a living and the wife took care of the hids during the day. There was a social stigma to single parenthood by accident or by choice.

While this provides some potentially interesting discussion, this isn't remotely on topic.

 

[Bomb#20]

The release of sperm in or near a vagina is not necessarily voluntary on the part of both individuals, even excluding rape. The man can and some do lie about pulling out, using a condom or having had a vasectomy or being sterile from some other cause.

If that's enough to make sex qualify as nonconsensual, then by the same token, it isn't always voluntary on the man's part either, since some women have lied about being on the Pill.

There was an odd case here a few years back where a man was convicted of rape-by-fraud for having sex with a woman while impersonating her boyfriend. His conviction was overturned on appeal because it turned out the law (passed in the 1800's) specifically prohibited getting sex by impersonating a woman's husband. Apparently the patriarchal legislators had figured if the woman was voluntarily having non-marital sex anyway then it hardly mattered who she was having sex with since either way she was a filthy little slut. The case prompted the legislature to amend the law to cover impersonating boyfriends. I haven't heard whether it also defines sex as nonconsensual if the woman is impersonating the man's girlfriend.

 

[laughing dog]

So....what, exactly? I was calling out bullshit analogies. I will continue to call them out, because bullshit analogies weaken your argument.

I made no analogy, so what on earth are you on about there?

It is a bullshit analogy to claim ejaculation is voluntary, as if women do not also voluntarily receive ejaculate.

Except women do not always voluntarily receive ejaculate. Hence your response is a bullshit analogy.

Stop raising bullshit analogies.

Lead the way, maybe others will follow.

 

[laughing dog]

Not necessarily. Consent ("allowing") may not be voluntary - please no pedantic excuses.

What on earth are you talking about?

You're construed as having consented when a moral philosopher's hypothetical stand-in for you would in the philosopher's opinion have rationally consented, if she were behind a Veil of Ignorance in the Original Position?

The argument so far:

Me: Men voluntarily ejaculate near vaginas is the equivalent action of women voluntarily allowing ejaculate into their vaginas.
Them: Sometimes men ejaculate without permission or rape women, therefore nothing a woman does is ever voluntary. Also, rape.

LOL - and you complain about people arguing in bad faith.

 

[Metaphor]

Ovulation is involuntary.
Sperm production is involuntary.
A woman allowing sperm near her vagina is voluntary.
A man ejaculating sperm near a woman's vagina is voluntary.

So where does that lead you then regarding responsibility then? The implication from your post is that the male and female are both responsible. But as usual, the term "responsible" is being discussed without actually addressing the consequences of said responsibility. What are the consequences?

In a scenario where people had consensual sex, the sperm and ova were necessary for conception, so both parties are equally responsible.

 

[Metaphor]

So....what, exactly? I was calling out bullshit analogies. I will continue to call them out, because bullshit analogies weaken your argument.

I made no analogy, so what on earth are you on about there?

I am talking about the bullshit analogies made in the thread.

It is a bullshit analogy to claim ejaculation is voluntary, as if women do not also voluntarily receive ejaculate.

Except women do not always voluntarily receive ejaculate. Hence your response is a bullshit analogy.

When women voluntarily receive ejaculate, their actions are voluntary. That there are cases where it is involuntary does not mean voluntary cases are involuntary.

Stop raising bullshit analogies.

Lead the way, maybe others will follow.

I did not make any bullshit analogies.

 

[Metaphor]

By the way, I assume both laughing dog's response and Rhea's response are a reference to forcible rape. Every single respondent has made clear that forcible rape is not 'voluntary', and I don't think it's voluntary either. By the same token, when a 13 year old boy ejaculates into a an adult teacher who has groomed him, I don't think that's 'voluntary'.

So, back to my point. The production of eggs is involuntary. So is the production of sperm. The release of that sperm into a vagina is also voluntary by both parties, barring cases of rape, which I will have to append to every sentence now as everybody is determined to argue in bad faith.

Any adult having sex with any 13 year old is rape.

The release of sperm in or near a vagina is not necessarily voluntary on the part of both individuals, even excluding rape. The man can and some do lie about pulling out, using a condom or having had a vasectomy or being sterile from some other cause.

So...what, exactly? Men and women can lie about their status ("I'm on the Pill/"I've had a vasectomy"). That does not mean when men did not lie, the reception of the sperm was not voluntary.

 

[steve_bank]

The idea of a woman stopping birth control to get pregnant and hook a guy is an old story. There may be some statistics on it.

It takes two to tango. Even if the woman intentionally gets pregnant the man IMO does have responsibility.

In the news a male pill is on the horizon.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We need to work harder! I'm certain if we try hard enough we can muddle in even less likely scenarios, wasting everyone's time and never actually discuss the actual baseline situation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ovulation is involuntary.
Sperm production is involuntary.
A woman allowing sperm near her vagina is voluntary.
A man ejaculating sperm near a woman's vagina is voluntary.

So where does that lead you then regarding responsibility then? The implication from your post is that the male and female are both responsible. But as usual, the term "responsible" is being discussed without actually addressing the consequences of said responsibility. What are the consequences?

In a scenario where people had consensual sex, the sperm and ova were necessary for conception, so both parties are equally responsible.

So that wasn't my question. Saying people are 'responsible' is like saying 'the sky is the color...' It doesn't address much of anything other than being responsible to do something.

What are the consequences of said responsibility? That is the key question.

 

[laughing dog]

It is a bullshit analogy to claim ejaculation is voluntary, as if women do not also voluntarily receive ejaculate.

Except women do not always voluntarily receive ejaculate. Hence your response is a bullshit analogy.

When women voluntarily receive ejaculate, their actions are voluntary. That there are cases where it is involuntary does not mean voluntary cases are involuntary.

You are sadly mistaken if you feel anuone claimed women never voluntarily receive ejaculate. One wonders why you felt the need to persist in making such an obvious irrelevant point.

Stop raising bullshit analogies.

Lead the way, maybe others will follow.

I did not make any bullshit analogies.

You are sadly mistaken.

 

[Emily Lake]

There's a pretty good article on this topic.

Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies​

Let’s start with this: A woman’s egg is only fertile for about two days each month. Yes, there are exceptions, because nature. But one egg which is fertile two days each month is the baseline. And those fertile eggs are produced for a limited number of years. This means, on average, women are fertile for about 24 days per year.

But men are fertile 365 days a year. In fact, if you’re a man who ejaculates multiple times a day, you could cause multiple pregnancies daily. In theory, a man could cause 1000+ unwanted pregnancies in just one year. While it’s true that sperm gets crappier as men age, it doesn’t have a fertility expiration date; men can cause unwanted pregnancies from puberty until death. So, starting with basic fertility stats and the calendar, it’s easy to see that men are the issue here.

In contrast, let’s look at birth control for men — i.e., condoms. They’re readily available at all hours, inexpensive, convenient, and don’t require a prescription. They’re effective and work on demand, instantly. They don’t cause aneurysms, mood swings, or debilitating cramps. Men can keep them stocked up just in case, so they’re always prepared. They can be easily used at the last minute. I mean, condoms are magic! So much easier than birth control options for women.

As a general rule, men get women pregnant by having an orgasm. Yes, there are exceptions — it’s possible for sperm to show up in pre-ejaculate — but in most cases, getting a woman pregnant is a pleasurable act for men. But men can get a woman pregnant without her feeling any pleasure at all. It’s even possible for a man to impregnate a woman while causing her excruciating pain, trauma, or horror.

In contrast, a woman can have nonstop orgasms with or without a partner and never once get herself pregnant. A woman’s orgasm has literally nothing to do with pregnancy or fertility — her clitoris exists simply for pleasure, not for creating new humans. No matter how many orgasms she has, they won’t make her pregnant.

Pregnancies happen when men have an orgasm. Unwanted pregnancies happen when men orgasm irresponsibly.

 

[TSwizzle]

There's a pretty good article on this topic.
let’s look at birth control for men — i.e., condoms. They’re readily available at all hours, inexpensive, convenient, and don’t require a prescription. They’re effective and work on demand, instantly. They don’t cause aneurysms, mood swings, or debilitating cramps. Men can keep them stocked up just in case, so they’re always prepared. They can be easily used at the last minute. I mean, condoms are magic! So much easier than birth control options for women.

The only nitpick I have is that condoms are available to women too. Surely some liberated women out there carry condoms around with them. Also the diaphragm is an option and let's not forget "the sponge". Although according to a Seinfeld episode I saw they may not be on the market anymore.

 

[Toni]

Sure, but diaphragms are available only by prescription and are a pain to use. Women can carry condoms all day long but if the guy won’t use them—or promises and then ‘gets so caught up in the moment’ that he forgets, or something breaks or isn’t used 100% correctly then—there can be a pregnancy. Which would not happen if men didn’t ejaculate in or near the vagina of a woman.

There are lots of ways to engage in sex without a penis ejacukating in or near a vagina.