Democrats should be fighting a class war and NOT a cutural war

[bilby]

Is there homelessness in Texas or Florida?

Are their high-rises built to house the homeless in Dallas or Miami?

To be fair, every city probably has some homeless.

But LA, San Francisco, and Seattle take it to a level never before seen other than a 3rd world country. It should also be noted that these 3 cities are run by very liberal governments which IMO is not a coincidence.

I think you have a very limited historical perspective. Many very big cities in Europe had sustained problems with the homeless in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries ( see History of homeless in the US, US Homelessness - History, Causes, Effects, etc.... and Homelessness in Great Britain are some examples). In the UK, the homeless are referred to as "rough sleepers". Historically, the homeless were referred to as "vagrants". Basically the official social response was to let them die.

The idea that homelessness is on the rise due to "liberal" or "Democratic" policies is naive ideologically-driven propaganda. LA and Seattle have growing homelessness in part due to migration - other areas either directly or indirectly induce the homeless to move there. Moreover, they have more temperate climates and have more services available to the homeless.

In the Early Medieval period in England, people who had nowhere to live and no means of support were supported by their home parish - essentially, the church collected taxes (tithes) that were used, in part, to house and feed those who couldn't support themselves. Mostly this meant cripples and the elderly; A healthy person could always find some kind of work, at least for some part of the year.

Parish based support worked quite well in a society with little mobility, but as people became less tied to the land, the support of homeless people became a major headache. If a person lost his job, he was expected to apply to his home parish for assistance - but his birthplace would typically say he no longer lived there and was ineligible; And his current community would say that he wasn't born there and was ineligible.

The industrial revolution led to so much of this that workhouses were established - places that would give anyone food and shelter, in exchange for as much labour as they could perform. These were deliberately made as unpleasant as possible, and when profitable labour wasn't possible (and it's hard not to profit from workers you don't have to pay), workhouses would make residents do pointless work, rather than allow them to be idle.

Unemployment basically didn't exist; But poverty was rife. The introduction of unemployment benefits after WWI, and their massive expansion after WWII, finally led to poverty becoming very rare, but at the expense of being replaced by unemployment.

And then the Thatcher administration managed, by dint of an astonishing lack of compassion for anyone, to create the modern English model, in which there is both unemployment and poverty, at the same time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Housing costs are high mostly because of liberal ideology greed. We usually think of Republicans as being the greedy robber barrons, but in this case its the liberals who did the damage. For example, propostion 13 of California is a huge reason why property values in that location are too high. Liberals think that people who own a property for a long time (baby boomers) should not have to pay any property tax and that the newcomers (gen z) should bear all the burdon by making up for this paying higher than normal tax. Besides being hugely unfair to the newcomers, it ends up being a perverse driver of elevating home prices because none of the retirees want to move out (thereby causing a shortage of supply) they do not want to lose their property tax breaks. And please note that Im not blaming those individuals themsleves but the stupid proposition 13 law.

So you think retirees being forced out of their homes by rising property tax is a good thing?!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes they should. What gives old people the divine right to live where it is expensive? Those older people (I happen to be one of them) who bought in an area that went up in value should cash out and retire to a much lower cost of living area that has no jobs (since they are retired moving to a low cost area with no jobs is fine for them). Younger popluation should move in those expensive areas to provide the skills and labor that the industry is willing to pay for.

They would be moving away from their social networks.

You're trying to kill people.

 

[Swammerdami]

In a thread titled democrats-should-be-fighting-a-class-war-and-not-a-cutural-war, OP leads with a Jimmy Dore video(!) and comments about the Ukraine War(!!). Wow!

If what RVonse wants to say, could he cohere, is that reducing income inequality should be a top political priority all around — for Democrats, for rational Republicans, for intellectuals and for competent leaders, then I agree!

But with an OP that leads with Jimmy Dore(!), the Ukraine War(!!) and attacks on the Democratic Party, I have to wonder if RVonse is riding on the same elevator as the Democrats, rational Republicans, intellectuals and competent leaders. Quick question: @RVonse — which American political party do you view as more of an obstacle to reducing income inequality?

 

[James Brown]

As I see it, the main thrust of the thread--before the typical thread drift into property taxes and such--was that homelessness is such an EASY problem to solve--"Just Build High-Rise Shelters!"--that any amount of time or money spent on any other issue in the world is deliberate malfeasance.

I'm not convinced.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I don't like the title of this thread. The right has been fighting a culture war my entire life. They've waged a crazy war against gays as long as I can remember. But they've also launched boycotts against Disney, books, science, Darwin, budweiser, Gillette, Keurig, Macy's, netflix, Nike, the NFL, Nordstroms, Starbucks and Target. I actually met a guy who was one of the actors in a TV kids show called the Teletubbies (or something like that). They were also targeted by the woke right as some kind of nefarious leader of the gays. Crazy. Now there's a little pushback from the left. And the right is offended that someone else is getting into the outrage game!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As I see it, the main thrust of the thread--before the typical thread drift into property taxes and such--was that homelessness is such an EASY problem to solve--"Just Build High-Rise Shelters!"

...and evict the elderly from the property they own.

 

[Politesse]

example, propostion 13 of California

Notoriously embraced by both parties, but much more so, not less, on the Republican side of the aisle....

If you really want to have a class war, you need to wake up and realize that none of these people are your friends. It really doesn't matter that much whether you're being atabbed in the back or in the front, if you're not going to do anything about it either way.

 

[Politesse]

Housing costs are high mostly because of liberal ideology greed. We usually think of Republicans as being the greedy robber barrons, but in this case its the liberals who did the damage. For example, propostion 13 of California

WTF are you talking about? Prop 13 was a conservative proposal whose main proponents were Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann, both conservative activists. It ushered in the era of conservative tax revolts all over the country and placed Ronald Reagan at the forefront of California politics.

I have no idea who is feeding you this bullcrap but it makes this quote come to mind: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

If prop 13 was really a conservative law (it isn't) it would have been taken down long ago. California is a liberal state.

Ah yes, that famous liberal, Ronnie "Bedtime for Bonzo" Reagan.

 

[Politesse]

Housing costs are high mostly because of liberal ideology greed. We usually think of Republicans as being the greedy robber barrons, but in this case its the liberals who did the damage. For example, propostion 13 of California

WTF are you talking about? Prop 13 was a conservative proposal whose main proponents were Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann, both conservative activists. It ushered in the era of conservative tax revolts all over the country and placed Ronald Reagan at the forefront of California politics.

I have no idea who is feeding you this bullcrap but it makes this quote come to mind: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

If prop 13 was really a conservative law (it isn't) it would have been taken down long ago. California is a liberal state.

Yes, I'm sure a new proposal that would end up throwing old folks out of their homes would be really popular.

California is the only state with such a law. Do we have demonstrably fewer homeless elderly people than Nevada or Arizona which have no such policy?

 

[laughing dog]

Housing costs are high mostly because of liberal ideology greed. We usually think of Republicans as being the greedy robber barrons, but in this case its the liberals who did the damage. For example, propostion 13 of California

WTF are you talking about? Prop 13 was a conservative proposal whose main proponents were Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann, both conservative activists. It ushered in the era of conservative tax revolts all over the country and placed Ronald Reagan at the forefront of California politics.

I have no idea who is feeding you this bullcrap but it makes this quote come to mind: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

If prop 13 was really a conservative law (it isn't) it would have been taken down long ago. California is a liberal state.

Yes, I'm sure a new proposal that would end up throwing old folks out of their homes would be really popular.

California is the only state with such a law. Do we have demonstrably fewer homeless elderly people than Nevada or Arizona which have no such policy?

This site - Homeless per 10,000 by state. California has an estimated 40.9 per 10,000 while both New Mexico and Arizona have an estimate of a little over 15 per 10,000.

 

[Politesse]

Housing costs are high mostly because of liberal ideology greed. We usually think of Republicans as being the greedy robber barrons, but in this case its the liberals who did the damage. For example, propostion 13 of California

WTF are you talking about? Prop 13 was a conservative proposal whose main proponents were Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann, both conservative activists. It ushered in the era of conservative tax revolts all over the country and placed Ronald Reagan at the forefront of California politics.

I have no idea who is feeding you this bullcrap but it makes this quote come to mind: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

If prop 13 was really a conservative law (it isn't) it would have been taken down long ago. California is a liberal state.

Yes, I'm sure a new proposal that would end up throwing old folks out of their homes would be really popular.

California is the only state with such a law. Do we have demonstrably fewer homeless elderly people than Nevada or Arizona which have no such policy?

This site - Homeless per 10,000 by state. California has an estimated 40.9 per 10,000 while both New Mexico and Arizona have an estimate of a little over 15 per 10,000.

Yes, but how many of those homeless people are "old folks thrown out of their homes" by Prop 13? How much have the other effects of the measure have increased the likelihood of homelessness for demograpbics other than aging homeowners? Does the math add up?

Whether the measure was well-intentioned is not in dispute, but like most ballot initiatives, it is not necessarily the most effective tool for realizing those intentions.

 

[laughing dog]

Housing costs are high mostly because of liberal ideology greed. We usually think of Republicans as being the greedy robber barrons, but in this case its the liberals who did the damage. For example, propostion 13 of California

WTF are you talking about? Prop 13 was a conservative proposal whose main proponents were Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann, both conservative activists. It ushered in the era of conservative tax revolts all over the country and placed Ronald Reagan at the forefront of California politics.

I have no idea who is feeding you this bullcrap but it makes this quote come to mind: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

If prop 13 was really a conservative law (it isn't) it would have been taken down long ago. California is a liberal state.

Yes, I'm sure a new proposal that would end up throwing old folks out of their homes would be really popular.

California is the only state with such a law. Do we have demonstrably fewer homeless elderly people than Nevada or Arizona which have no such policy?

This site - Homeless per 10,000 by state. California has an estimated 40.9 per 10,000 while both New Mexico and Arizona have an estimate of a little over 15 per 10,000.

Yes, but how many of those homeless people are "old folks thrown out of their homes" by Prop 13? How much have the other effects of the measure have increased the likelihood of homelessness for demograpbics other than aging homeowners? Does the math add up?

Whether the measure was well-intentioned is not in dispute, but like most ballot initiatives, it is not necessarily the most effective tool for realizing those intentions.

I offered estimates of the homeless adjusted for population size. That does not account for the reasons for the homelessness. My suspicions is that California's relatively high rate of homelessness is due to a number of large urban areas (where homelessness tends to be concentrated), the attractiveness of the state compared to other states, the level of support available in California, etc....

The notion that Proposition 13 remains on the book due to the greed of Democrats is ludicrous. It remains due to the self-interest of all current homeowners who benefit from rising market property values without an increase in their property taxes. That self-interest spans all ideologies.

 

[Politesse]

The notion that Proposition 13 remains on the book due to the greed of Democrats is ludicrous. It remains due to the self-interest of all current homeowners who benefit from rising market property values without an increase in their property taxes. That self-interest spans all ideologies.

It's certainly true that support for prop 13 is not really a partisan matter. Republican and Democratic governors and governments have come and gone -- no one is willing to go near it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, I'm sure a new proposal that would end up throwing old folks out of their homes would be really popular.

California is the only state with such a law. Do we have demonstrably fewer homeless elderly people than Nevada or Arizona which have no such policy?

Nevada resident here--we have something similar although not quite as restrictive. It was put in when real estate was going crazy and there are some tax lovers who would like to see it gone but they don't seem to be getting much of anywhere.

 

[bilby]

Yes, I'm sure a new proposal that would end up throwing old folks out of their homes would be really popular.

California is the only state with such a law. Do we have demonstrably fewer homeless elderly people than Nevada or Arizona which have no such policy?

Nevada resident here--we have something similar although not quite as restrictive. It was put in when real estate was going crazy and there are some tax lovers who would like to see it gone but they don't seem to be getting much of anywhere.

I doubt there are many people anywhere (and certainly not in the USA) who love taxation as much as I do. But nevertheless, I think that property taxes should never be allowed to force someone from their primary residence.

 

[Swammerdami]

We had a Democrat congress during all this Ukraine spending and it would have been the perfect time for the liberal side of the Democrat party (aka "the squad") to have at least brought some kind of attention to the homeless. How many other bills do you see with spending attached on for non related stuff? It would have been the time for bringing federal resources towards the homeless. To provide visibility to how bad our own nation is at present.

But they did nothing at all. Did not even bring it up.

They didn't? Did you even check?

Bills to aid and house the homeless, would that be doing nothing too?
HR 9210
HR 7191

Or do they need to have put forth 25 bills to end homelessness?

Did you expect RVonse to check the Congressional Record?
If it wasn't reported by Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlsen it didn't happen.

 

[RVonse]

YI think that property taxes should never be allowed to force someone from their primary residence.

In the first place the only way you can ensure that is to not have a property tax at all. Otherwise there will always be someone who may not be able to pay, (example the homeless). In the second place, Proposition 13 does not prevent people from being forced from their residence at all, it just moves the target from old people to young people. A young person who becomes unemployed will much more quickly lose his house to taxes, because his rate is 10-15 times higher.

 

[RVonse]

We had a Democrat congress during all this Ukraine spending and it would have been the perfect time for the liberal side of the Democrat party (aka "the squad") to have at least brought some kind of attention to the homeless. How many other bills do you see with spending attached on for non related stuff? It would have been the time for bringing federal resources towards the homeless. To provide visibility to how bad our own nation is at present.

But they did nothing at all. Did not even bring it up.

They didn't? Did you even check?

Bills to aid and house the homeless, would that be doing nothing too?
HR 9210
HR 7191

Or do they need to have put forth 25 bills to end homelessness?

Did you expect RVonse to check the Congressional Record?
If it wasn't reported by Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlsen it didn't happen.

I'm glad to see something was done because honestly I did not know anything was. That being said, the actual results on the ground certainly speak for themselves. The US is blowing all kinds of money serving the rest of the world while disabled Americans live in LA tents. All done under the Democrats watch. A horrible and embarrassing display of political governance.

 

[ZiprHead]

YI think that property taxes should never be allowed to force someone from their primary residence.

In the first place the only way you can ensure that is to not have a property tax at all. Otherwise there will always be someone who may not be able to pay, (example the homeless). In the second place, Proposition 13 does not prevent people from being forced from their residence at all, it just moves the target from old people to young people. A young person who becomes unemployed will much more quickly lose his house to taxes, because his rate is 10-15 times higher.

It takes years for tax liens to get to the eviction state. Plenty of time to find new employment.