• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Drag Shows

Status
Not open for further replies.
Some people seem to expect there to be no variations from the norm in human biology (it's just a thought in a person's head), when it's really variations are the norm.

The only near perfect biological entity is probably the cockroach.
 
The limit I am describing certainly exists, albeit in a different place depending on who you ask. I didn't express an opinion on the value of placing it at any given point, I just pointed out that TERFs by definition have an opinion that lies close to one extreme and far from the other.
That "limit" that you are presenting as being an "extreme" is not at all extreme. It is the base distinction between the male and female of ALL sexually reproductive species. It is the cornerstone for how those species survive throughout time. You're acting like it's a mere taxonomy, an arbitrarily applied line along a spectrum, that one can later decide to change and then Pluto isn't a planet anymore. It's not. Male and female are biologically, anatomically, reproductively different. Humans CANNOT change sex, and there are ONLY two sexes. This is scientific reality.

Presenting that scientific reality as if it's just the "opinion" of some uppity women is flat-eartherism.
 
There are only two sexes among humans - male and female. No human is any other sex, nor is any human both sexes, nor is any human some in-between sex.
The bolded statements are factually wrong.

Such individuals are rare, but they absolutely do exist.

No biological system is as simple as your claim here demands that it must be.
No. NO HUMANS IS OF BOTH SEXES

It does not happen, it cannot happen. It is a physical impossibility for any single individual human to be both sexes.

NO HUMAN IS IN BETWEEN SEXES

Some few humans have ambiguous genitals due to disorders of sexual development, but none of the are actually in-between sexes. Every single human is either male or female - some just need a bit more than a cursory examination to determine which. But ultimately, we're all either male or female, nobody is in-between. Not in reality.
 
There are only two sexes among humans - male and female. No human is any other sex, nor is any human both sexes, nor is any human some in-between sex.
The bolded statements are factually wrong.

They are not. Humans are not plants, which can indeed be two sexes.

However, the intersex gambit used by trans ideologists is an irrelevant distraction. Trans ideologists do not claim someone has to be intersex to be trans.

Even a person who falls into the very small range colloquially misnamed as "intersex" are not actually in-between. Ever single "intersex" person is still either male or female.

DSDs are sex-specific conditions.
 
There is the absolute biology, the chromosomal array that is associated with male and female and there are many variations on that one standard allotment of an X and a Y or two X's. There are intersex individuals; there are hermaphrodite individuals--rare, but still existing. There are individuals who have never, ever felt comfortable as the sex they were presumed to be at birth but who have always felt as though their true self was always the other sex. I've known such people. It's not fake. It's not for attention. It's not mental illness. It's how they perceive themselves and how they wish others to see them. Don't we all wish to be seen as our true selves?
There are a lot of women that are XY genetically. Swyer syndrome. Seems they have come up with a frequency now: 1 in 80,000. (Really, 1 in 40,000 women.)
I will reiterate: Sex is NOT defined by karyotype. Karyotype is the "directions" for how to make a human, and those directions are usually followed pretty well. But sometimes there are errors.

Sex is defined by the type of gamete that an individual's reproductive anatomy is organized around, even if that gamete does not actually get produced. A person with a female-typical uterus, fallopian tubes, vagina, etc. is considered by evolutionary biologists to be female, even if they don't have ovaries, even if their karyotype ends up being XY.

This is why arguments based on the horrible misnamed "intersex" conditions are frustrating. It's a complete lack of understanding of what actually makes an individual within a species either male or female.
 
There's not even a single universal way to divide sexes into two absolute sets with no overlaps or outliers.
FEmales are those whose reproductive anatomy is arranged around the production of ova and the gestation of offspring, even when some of that anatomy is misformed or absent, and even when ova are not actually produced.

Males are those whose reproductive anatomy is arranged around production and delivery of sperm, even when some of that anatomy is misformed or absent, and even when sperm are not actually produced.

Two genders is an approximation.
"Two genders" is a result of eons of sex-based discrimination which grants social privileges and agency to males, and which places females as subservient second-class citizens.

Two sexes is also an approximation
Two sexes is the actual reality of sexually reproductive species on this planet. It's not an approximation - there is no third sex among any mammals, nor I believe (would have to double check) among vertebrates. Some algaes have more than two sexes, but they can only combined to reproduce in couplets - as long as the two gametes are not the same type of gamete, reproduction is possible. But among mammals there are ONLY two sexes, and hence, there are only two sexes.

This is how sexual reproduction works. In the real world, in reality. Evolution does not give a fuck about people's feelings, and it does not care whether we "like" the sex we developed as. Sex isn't an option that anybody gets to choose, and it's immune to wishes. Sex is real, it has real impacts on people, and it is strictly binary.

Anything else is anti-scientific nonsense presenting wishes as if they were facts.
 
This is why arguments based on the horrible misnamed "intersex" conditions are frustrating. It's a complete lack of understanding of what actually makes an individual within a species either male or female.
Right. No person can get themself pregnant. The intersex discussion is a complete red herring.
 
For some, drag is the only access they have to be considered in that (spot)light. Folks like Emily and Metaphor have made sure that all other avenues of expression in this way are cut off: even those who merely seek to be seen as beautiful and feminine for a while are attacked viciously and constantly by such folks in public, outed.
This is false. I would be very happy if people were allowed to dress however they wish, and if they want to feel pretty and delicate, they can wear a ballgown and strappy sandals. I don't care if men want to wear make-up - I'm gen-x, I grew up with men in make-up and women in combat boots. It worked just fine. Hell, Poison was a bunch of rather pretty men!

I am 100% for abolition of the gender requirements forced on men by other men. It's not women who insist that a man in a dress and lipstick isn't a "man", we aren't the gatekeepers of masculinity. It's not women who attack and beat up transvestites, it's men. Let's be more specific - it's straight men who attack and abuse their gender non-conforming brethren.

All that said, however, gendered presentation and expression does NOT override the reality of sex. Those are two different elements of life. I'm completely supportive of gender being a massive multi-colored spectrum of expression and roles within society - SMASH PATRIACHY! But that doesn't change reality. It doesn't change sex. Nor does it override sex.
 
When everything works right you get "man" and "woman"--but there are all sorts of ways it can go wrong
I would argue that's a "feature" not a bug.
A "feature" which makes a representative of a species unable to pass along its genes to the next generation is a bug.
Having variance in perspectives is a socially important aspect, because it allows accessing perspectives which are normally only available across that boundary.

That was the whole point of "Running Up That Hill". Some people already have that, that difference of perspective. That song was about someone wanting to access that difference of perspective so badly they would make "a deal with God" for it.
Um, sort of? But nobody actually does have the objective of experiencing life as the opposite sex. If we genuinely could do so, I would want a year of it to be mandatory!
 
Why is it "gender-critical" people manage to know so little about the biology of human bodies despite obsessing over them constantly? You'd think if you love your biological sex so much, it would inspire curiosity about human sexuality, not blustering ignorance.

For the record, stamping your foot and going "it just is" is not science, no matter what topic you happen to be discussing.
 
Why is it "gender-critical" people manage to know so little about the biology human bodies despite obsessing over them constantly?
Pick a body part, organ, or function and search for sex differences. There’s a lot. Five million years of sexually dimorphic evolution will do that. And the sex binary is much older than that. Feeling uncomfortable in one’s body doesn’t change that. It’s the gender cultist who are the flat earthers.
 
There are a lot of women that are XY genetically.

Yes, some people could be XY with unexpressed male featues, legally declared female upon birth. There are also XXY "females." It's even more variable than that genetically. Any tissue in the human body could be m% XX and n% XY. So, a person could be 51% XX in their liver cells and 42% XY in their kidney cells. The obvious way that can happen is through chimeras, but it's not the only reason why. Additionally, for any genetic feature we associate with sex, it could be suppressed or expressed. So, there is a rainbow spectra of genotypes and phenotypes.
While the cells can be mixed doesn't the expressed phenotype depend on hormones, not cells?
Primary phenotype expression is only dependent on hormones at one specific stage of fetal development. The "default setting" of human fetuses is female; it takes a wash of testosterone to prompt the development of scrotal sac and penis. Actually, it takes two things: the ability to produce testosterone, and the ability to receive and process testosterone. If either of those is absent, the phenotype will be female throughout gestation and early childhood. In some case, puberty can produce some male-typical developments in karyotypic males who have female phenotypes at birth. IIRC, 5ARD is one of those, where male children will frequently look like females at birth, especially if one is in a less developed country. The infant will lack a visible penis, and will appear to have a vulva, although they often do not have a vaginal opening. At puberty, testosterone prompts the elongation of the penis which failed to trigger in utero. Because the penis and teh clitoris originally begin as the same "lump of clay", the observed effect of this is that the presumably female child will develop an abnormally large "clit" or a very small penis. In most cases, the urethral opening is on the tip of the appendage mistaken for a clitoris, or on the underside of it. Children with 5ARD, however, do not have ovaries, they have testicular tissue. And they do not have a uterus or fallopian tubes. Their internal anatomy is arranged around the production of sperm... even though their blueprints went off-script during development.

People with the DSD of 5ARD, however, are male. Despite their developmental left turn in utero, they are complete male. 5ARD is a condition which ONLY affects males.

Back to your question... substituting hormones - even in utero - won't produce the opposite phenotype throughout maturation. If you expose a female fetus to testosterone, you're going to get some malformations, but you're not going to see a karyotypical female infant develop a penis and testicular tissue. And exposing a female child to testosterone at puberty isn't going to prompt their bodies to develop male reproductive anatomy either. What it will do is cause that female to acquire muscle density and muscle fiber in a male-typical fashion, and reduce their body's tendency to store fat cells against the possibility of a future pregnancy. Similarly, given a male child estrogen during puberty isn't going to cause them to develop a uterus. It doesn't even actually prompt them to develop breasts - it prompts their body to store higher amounts of fat cells in the breast tissue and in the hips and buttocks. This results in larger concentrations of fatty breast tissue... but it doesn't prompt the development of additional lactation glands beyond the residual ones that all males have. On the other hand, during puberty, the estrogen will cause a female child to grow more lactation glands in addition to fatty tissue in the breast region.
 
I mean, where has common sense gone?
I don't know. But apparently it's left people permanently incapable of spotting the difference between a real problem, and tabloid propaganda nonsense.

When someone invites you to be outraged, common sense dictates that you should decline until you have thoroughly investigated the facts. Yet here we are.
I think some people are only comfortable when they can explicitly label everything in their reality and stick them in well ordered boxes, at least in their own heads. As to whether everything in reality can actually be made to fit into such boxes or not is irrelevant, as Emily's posts clearly demonstrate- in their minds they fit, and must always fit, and therefore, anyone who experiences the world differently must be wrong.

The outrage is just the cream on top, a bonus.
And some people like to move about in the world pretending there's a spectrum between electrons and protons, and that those who recognize them as different particles are somehow dummies.

This isn't about social constructions of gender presentation or gender roles. This is about reproductive sexes. Don't conflate the two.
 
Yeah, the other giveaway that the simpleton's "two genders, two sexes, no overlap" is wrong is that there are a number of differing definitions, most of which don't apply to every human, and all of which divide those to whom they do apply in different ways.
That’s like saying humans are not bipedal because some can’t walk.
The humans who can't walk on two legs are clearly not bipedal. To insist that the humans who don't have legs, or are unable to use them to walk are NOT human is a ridiculous position. And that is the fucking point.
Nobody says they aren't humans. But the existence of down syndrome doesn't change the definition of human DNA as having 46 pairs.
 
Why is it "gender-critical" people manage to know so little about the biology human bodies despite obsessing over them constantly?
Pick a body part, organ, or function and search for sex differences. There’s a lot. Five million years of sexually dimorphic evolution will do that. And the sex binary is much older than that. Feeling uncomfortable in one’s body doesn’t change that. It’s the gender cultist who are the flat earthers.
Okay, the brain. The most important organ (after skin?) in the body. Please tell us the differences between men and women in the brain... specifically. Then you can move on to describing where in my brain that makes me specifically attracted to Asian women.
 
People do not produce exclusively sperms or eggs. Some produce both.
This is false. No humans produce BOTH. At the very most extreme edge of things, you might have a mosaic or chimera who has both testicular and ovarian tissue - but even if you overlook that this is a mixture of two individuals, they cannot simultaneously produce both sperm and ova. The level of testosterone required to produce sperm cells is toxic to ova. The level of estrogen required to maintain viable ova precludes the production of sperm.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom