Drag Shows

[Politesse]

The fact is that drag is not "blackface".

Explain the moral difference.

One is that it is not generally prejudicial to people of a discriminated racial group. It's also not generally produced with the intent of mocking and belittling women. While either of those two things might happen in some particular performer's act, "comedy" being what it is these days, that's on them; neither is inherent to the genre.

 

[Metaphor]

The fact is that drag is not "blackface".

Explain the moral difference.

One is that it is not generally prejudicial to people of a discriminated racial group.

Women are regarded as a minority with respect to men.

It's also not generally produced with the intent of mocking and belittling women.

I explain in post #160 what drag generally is. In the UK, the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' was not generally produced with the intent of mocking and belittling black people. It was people doing song and dance numbers for entertainment.

While either of those two things might happen in some particular performer's act, "comedy" being what it is these days, that's on them; neither is inherent to the genre.

So, there is some 'essence' to blackface that womanface lacks?

 

[Politesse]

I explain in post #160 what drag generally is. In the UK, the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' was not generally produced with the intent of mocking and belittling black people. It was people doing song and dance numbers for entertainment

Your explanation is not accurate, so.. not much to say really.

 

[Metaphor]

I explain in post #160 what drag generally is. In the UK, the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' was not generally produced with the intent of mocking and belittling black people. It was people doing song and dance numbers for entertainment

Your explanation is not accurate, so.. not much to say really.

Okay. So no moral difference. You just find one okay and not the other because reasons.

 

[Jarhyn]

Explain the moral difference.

So, let's imagine I have a room full of black people, whose proprietor, a black person, hired a performer to put on a performance, a performance is done for this crowd by the performer, everyone cheers and goes home and tells their black friends how much they loved it.

This is a significant moral difference. The moral difference is the existence of real and clear offense at the expense of a class of people.

Because I watched myself as a room of people who are loudly "women" whose proprietor was loudly a "woman", hire a bunch of drag performers to put on a drag performance, which they did perform, everyone cheered very loudly, and then several were discussing how much they enjoyed it.

You wish to claim that drag is offensive to "women" in the way that blackface is offensive to black people. I think the lesbian bachelorette party featuring a drag show might hint that this is not so universally offensive to women.

What is missing is the clear offense.

As it is, many songs drag queens perform to are sung by "women", to encourage drag performance. They are some of the most beloved by the LGBT+ community.

The latter is a bit more burlesque, though and not a vibe I would put in front of kids?

 

[Toni]

Oh? Why isn't it the same? Simply saying "the right people are offended by drag but not blackface" is not a sufficient answer.

I've got to scratch my head here. Who are "the right people"? Because it reads as if it's a goal to offend women. And while I *am* offended by drag, I don't think it's the intent of drag to be offensive to women. It's just run of the mill misogyny, where most men simply never bother to think about the feelings of women, or what their portrayal of women, has as an effect. Women don't matter to them enough to even cross their poor little minds.

I don’t think the intent of drag is to offend the gender being …portrayed. I was a little …shocked when I saw my first drag show because it seemed to lampoon femininity without intending to or realizing it was. It seemed to…embrace or revere all the things I was told were ‘feminine’ but that I saw as being artificial and attempts to control women and give women some false sense of power—

But that’s my take and I’m certain is not the point of drag to the artists. I just see it as having nothing at all to do with actual women. And perhaps that’s the point: do we attach the name female or male based on how someone dresses, wears their hair, walks? Are we attracted to the person or the persona? And are we not allowed to express all the various aspects of ourselves instead of being restricted to whatever society deems is appropriate based on our genitalia?

To respond to Jarhyn’s post above: What I found offensive, jarring was what I saw as depictions of all the stereotypes that were shoved at me as feminine but I rejected as female or feminine. Or sexy. Or desirable, attractive, female. To me the expectation that I look, dress, behave in ways that I found inauthentic and foreign to be considered female—which clearly I was/am female —was extremely offensive. Female/male isn’t something you put on or off.

 

[Metaphor]

Female/male isn’t something you put on or off.

Merry TERFmas! A gender critical angel just got his wings.

 

[Arctish]

I'm still wondering how the 'R' in TERF is defined, and how one goes about deciding when it's use is appropriate.

What makes a TEF a TERF?

 

[Metaphor]

I'm still wondering how the 'R' in TERF is defined, and how one goes about deciding when it's use is appropriate.

What makes a TEF a TERF?

Nothing. It's a generic insult for anyone who holds any skeptical belief about gender ideology. I'd be called a TERF, even though I'm neither "trans-exclusionary", nor a radical feminist.

 

[Politesse]

I'm still wondering how the 'R' in TERF is defined, and how one goes about deciding when it's use is appropriate.

What makes a TEF a TERF?

It's the public attacking of trans people that makes the difference. No one actually cares what you think about things in the privacy of your own mind.

 

[Toni]

Well I’m not trans exclusionary. Trans individuals are not putting on or taking off anything. They are being themselves.

 

[Toni]

I'm still wondering how the 'R' in TERF is defined, and how one goes about deciding when it's use is appropriate.

What makes a TEF a TERF?

R is for radical, I believe.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

In this thread I learned that secondary sexual characteristics on adults = sexualization of children. That means women with child-bearing attributes are sexualizing children everywhere. Should we start the legislation now to stop all the big-boobed women from doing story time with innocent children?? How about women with big hips being teachers and librarians? How to stop them? Women who get cosmetic surgery to get bigger boobs and bigger butts are apparently mocking women, too. We need to throw Kim Kardashian in jail. She's mocking women and sexualizing children.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ran across this elsewhere. An actual DQSH.

 

[Oleg]

I'm still wondering how the 'R' in TERF is defined, and how one goes about deciding when it's use is appropriate.

What makes a TEF a TERF?

Nothing. It's a generic insult for anyone who holds any skeptical belief about gender ideology. I'd be called a TERF, even though I'm neither "trans-exclusionary", nor a radical feminist.

It's like calling someone a sinner, or heretic, or kafir, or anti-revolutionary. A made-up slur used against anyone who refuses to bend the knee.

 

[TomC]

I'm still wondering how the 'R' in TERF is defined, and how one goes about deciding when it's use is appropriate.

What makes a TEF a TERF?

Nothing. It's a generic insult for anyone who holds any skeptical belief about gender ideology. I'd be called a TERF, even though I'm neither "trans-exclusionary", nor a radical feminist.

It's like calling someone a sinner, or heretic, or kafir, or anti-revolutionary. A made-up slur used against anyone who refuses to bend the knee.

Other such words include liberal, snowflake, baby-killer, commie, sjw, and faggot.

Faggot is the only one that truly applies to me. So I wear the label with Pride.
Tom

 

[TomC]

I'm still wondering how the 'R' in TERF is defined, and how one goes about deciding when it's use is appropriate.

What makes a TEF a TERF?

The real problem is that none of the words in that are particularly clear.
Every single one is quite subjective, quite vague.

They are Trans, Exclusionary, Radical, and Feminist.

Radical is probably the least objective. When you're a radical, everyone else seems to be also.

Trans is a close second. What does trans really mean, in our day-to-day world? How trans does someone have to be to qualify?

Then there's exclusionary. If someone thinks that people should be allowed to do whatever they want except for a few small exclusions, like women's sports or public restrooms, are they exclusionary?

Then there's feminist. Does supporting women's rights to decide who is entitled to use the city pool shower/changing room mean you're a feminist?

Or a TERF?

There really aren't any serious answers. Because it's all a bunch of semantic nonsense with ego driven agendas at the core.
Tom

 

[bilby]

I'm still wondering how the 'R' in TERF is defined, and how one goes about deciding when it's use is appropriate.

What makes a TEF a TERF?

The real problem is that none of the words in that are particularly clear.
Every single one is quite subjective, quite vague.

They are Trans, Exclusionary, Radical, and Feminist.

Radical is probably the least objective. When you're a radical, everyone else seems to be also.

Trans is a close second. What does trans really mean, in our day-to-day world? How trans does someone have to be to qualify?

Then there's exclusionary. If someone thinks that people should be allowed to do whatever they want except for a few small exclusions, like women's sports or public restrooms, are they exclusionary?

Then there's feminist. Does supporting women's rights to decide who is entitled to use the city pool shower/changing room mean you're a feminist?

Or a TERF?

There really aren't any serious answers. Because it's all a bunch of semantic nonsense with ego driven agendas at the core.
Tom

Deconstruction of idiomatic phrases is, as you just ably demonstrated, a waste of time and effort.

A city centre car park is not a city, a centre, a car, or a park.

A TERF is a person who has an unusually strong commitment to promoting and defending the rights of women, while absolutely rejecting any broadening of the definition of "woman" beyond its most limited possible definition. Like all extremists, a TERF wants to fight for "us", and cares nothing if "they" are hurt in the process, while defining "us" as narrowly as they possibly can.

Radical feminists regard men as their enemies; TERFs are keen to ensure that they establish as many enemies as they possibly can with that attitude. Exactly how extreme an individual TERF can be is sometimes surprising; I have encountered people who wouldn't let a three year old boy (the son of another member of their women's group) into their home on the grounds that, as he has a penis, he is a potential rapist. Presumably she was worried that she might forget he was there for a decade or two.

Extremism is a very effective way to cement a tiny number of relationships, while simultaneously being batshit crazy. It's a way for crazy people to try to avoid losing the last few friends they still have.

 

[Emily Lake]

The fact is that drag is not "blackface".

The fact is that drag is supported by a great many women.

Hell, I recall a lesbian bachelor party at a lesbian-heavy gay bar where the primary entertainment was drag shows.

They had a stage for it and everything.

HoW dArE ThEy!!111

I have a challenge for you on this.

Go watch some old episodes of Fat Albert. Look at how the characters are depicted, how they're drawn, how they interact, and the general characterizations used. Let me know if it strikes you as being racist in any way.

Then consider that these characters - complete with big lips, flat noses, etc. were developed hand-in-hand with some pretty famous black people, and the series was loved by both black and white people alike.

Then consider that the costumes involving exaggerated breasts, hips, buts, and lips that are favored by drag queens, are 100% the invention of men, performed exclusively my men.

The fact that not all women currently find it offensive doesn't mean that those of us who *do* find it offensive are wrong.

 

[Emily Lake]

The fact is that drag is not "blackface".

Explain the moral difference.

One is that it is not generally prejudicial to people of a discriminated racial group. It's also not generally produced with the intent of mocking and belittling women. While either of those two things might happen in some particular performer's act, "comedy" being what it is these days, that's on them; neither is inherent to the genre.

Prior to the civil war, minstrel shows didn't have the intent of mocking and belittling black people either. Their origins are in the abolitionists states of the northeastern US, and many of them were pretty sympathetic to southern slaves, as well as openly supportive of runaway slaves. Several of them were well-liked by free black people of the northern states at the time.

Laurence Olivier playing Othello was certainly not done with the intention of mocking or belittling black people, and his performance was not prejudicial... but it is still viewed as unacceptable blackface. There have been countless items over the last several years of politicians and famous people who had, in their youth, dressed as a famous black person for Halloween - in ways that were clearly intended as homage to someone they respected. But they are still denounced for having worn blackface.

And while women aren't a discriminated *racial* group, we are a discriminated *sex class*. Whether drag has as its intent to openly mock and belittle us is rather beside the point. The majority of drag performers use personas with exaggeratedly large butts and boobs and lips, in ways that are a caricature of womanhood. This is a case of men making up a character that is in essence a parody of women, then performing a caricature. They might think it's harmless, they might think it's just good fun. But then... so did Trudeau and many other famous people who dressed up as black people with no ill intent.