Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Politesse]

Interestingly, women are actually much more accepting of trans rights than men, despite the men vs women narrative being pushed in this thread. In both cases, most men and most women oppose the use of bathrooms and locker rooms by trans people, that's not in dispute. Ours is a transphobic country to the core. But women are slightly less likely, not more likely, to hold prejudicial attitudes about trans people in publuc spaces.

Real question: If your mother or your partner's mother or your ex or any woman you cared about called you up, upset because while she was showering at the gym, there was a naked stranger with a penis next to her in the shower, would you not understand why they might be upset by that?

Come to think of it, my great grandmother would have been pretty goddamned upset if she had walked into a gym locker room and found white and black women changing together. Do I understand where she's coming from? Yes, absolutely. That's how she was raised. Her fear and discomfort caused her real and genuine distress. But do I think that black women should be forced to use separate facilities? No. No, I do not, and never will.

I don't see segregation as actually solving the problem, because the bodies of the people you fear aren't the real problem. In Florida, it is illegal for trans children to use single gender bathrooms or changing areas. Has anti-trans hysteria died down in Florida, now that the "problem has been solved"? No, it has actually gotten worse, and violent incidents are on the rise. Because the kids themselves were never the true source of that prejudice. They can introduce as many laws as they like, but the fear of the "threat from within" will always remain.

 

[Politesse]

Really? Because if the government mandates that pre/nonsurgical transwomen must be allowed in the same public showers as women, then the government isn't just sanctioning sexual assault but mandating it.

Mandating it?

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, a UCLA study finds.

www.nbcnews.com

Threat = zero.

Because exposing yourself to someone who is not a willing participant is sexual assault. Which women, apparently, are expected to tolerate.

Strangely enough, Vermont doesn't seem to see it that way at all. They sensibly separate nudity (legal) from flashing (illegal) and recognize only the latter is sexual assault. Once again, it doesn't cause a problem. (Note that some cities have their own laws, I'm only talking about the state law.)

There is no reason that all showers and dressing rooms in any gym or similar facility are not outfitted with private stalls with doors that provide privacy for whoever is using them. I realize that this is an adjustment for a lot of men but too bad. Your need/desire for the comradery of shared nudity in gym lockerrooms and showers should not trump women's need/desire for safety and comfort.

Black's need for restrooms shouldn't trump white's need for safety and comfort.

Pretty sure that’s not what you mean.

Women’s restrooms have stalls with doors on them. They offer all users privacy.

We are not talking about restrooms. We are talking about dressing rooms and showers where women are naked.

And I am suggesting mandatory stalls with doors for dressing and showering and that such should be universal fir make and female spaces.

It is disgusting to insist that asserting a woman’s right to privacy is equivalent to Jim Crow.

Shame on you all.

Hang on a damn minute, I have always advocated for universally designed changing rooms. That's not the problem. Forcing already marginalized people into an uncomfortable or dangerous situation because you think their body is a threat to you. That's the problem. I would greatly prefer not to have segregated toilet facilities in the first place, I think that would be a better solution for everyone. But as long as people are using bathrooms as a weapon to enforce the Christian gender binary, not letting people define their own gender withun that system is a serious civil rights issue that gets people - mostly children by the numbers - hurt.

 

[Toni]

Interestingly, women are actually much more accepting of trans rights than men, despite the men vs women narrative being pushed in this thread. In both cases, most men and most women oppose the use of bathrooms and locker rooms by trans people, that's not in dispute. Ours is a transphobic country to the core. But women are slightly less likely, not more likely, to hold prejudicial attitudes about trans people in publuc spaces.

Real question: If your mother or your partner's mother or your ex or any woman you cared about called you up, upset because while she was showering at the gym, there was a naked stranger with a penis next to her in the shower, would you not understand why they might be upset by that?

Come to think of it, my great grandmother would have been pretty goddamned upset if she had walked into a gym locker room and found white and black women changing together. Do I understand where she's coming from? Yes, absolutely. That's how she was raised. Her fear and discomfort caused her real and genuine distress. But do I think that black women should be forced to use separate facilities? No. No, I do not, and never will.

I don't see segregation as actually solving the problem, because the bodies of the people you fear aren't the real problem. In Florida, it is illegal for trans children to use single gender bathrooms or changing areas. Has anti-trans hysteria died down in Florida, now that the "problem has been solved"? No, it has actually gotten worse, and violent incidents are on the rise. Because the kids themselves were never the true source of that prejudice. They can introduce as many laws as they like, but the fear of the "threat from within" will always remain.

I understood why my father objected to my sister dating a black man. I understood it was racism that motivated his objection.

Here: what I am proposing is UNIVERSAL private shower stalls and private dressing room stalls.

I am absolutely NOT proposing segregated: male-female-trans facilities.

 

[TomC]

Come to think of it, my great grandmother would have been pretty goddamned upset if she had walked into a gym locker room and found white and black women changing together.

Playing the race card is starting to look like Godwin's Law.

If you don't like something because it interferes with your preferences, compare it to Jim Crow.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

You can believe whatever you like, but ours is a secular nation; you don't get to impose your beliefs on other people without qualification or rebuttal.

Isn't that exactly what the trans identified men are doing to women?

No. It asks nothing of you to "allow" them to perceive themselves in a way that you don't. You can have whatever thoughts you like. Your thoughts do not give you the right to force other people to live differently than they would choose.

 

[TomC]

using bathrooms as a weapon to enforce the Christian gender binary,

Bullshit.

It's not Christian and it's not enforcement. There's a restroom for everyone, usually next to each other.

It's more like patriarchal dismissal of women's concerns and feelings.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Really? Because if the government mandates that pre/nonsurgical transwomen must be allowed in the same public showers as women, then the government isn't just sanctioning sexual assault but mandating it.

Mandating it?

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, a UCLA study finds.

www.nbcnews.com

Threat = zero.

Because exposing yourself to someone who is not a willing participant is sexual assault. Which women, apparently, are expected to tolerate.

Strangely enough, Vermont doesn't seem to see it that way at all. They sensibly separate nudity (legal) from flashing (illegal) and recognize only the latter is sexual assault. Once again, it doesn't cause a problem. (Note that some cities have their own laws, I'm only talking about the state law.)

There is no reason that all showers and dressing rooms in any gym or similar facility are not outfitted with private stalls with doors that provide privacy for whoever is using them. I realize that this is an adjustment for a lot of men but too bad. Your need/desire for the comradery of shared nudity in gym lockerrooms and showers should not trump women's need/desire for safety and comfort.

Black's need for restrooms shouldn't trump white's need for safety and comfort.

Pretty sure that’s not what you mean.

Women’s restrooms have stalls with doors on them. They offer all users privacy.

We are not talking about restrooms. We are talking about dressing rooms and showers where women are naked.

And I am suggesting mandatory stalls with doors for dressing and showering and that such should be universal fir make and female spaces.

It is disgusting to insist that asserting a woman’s right to privacy is equivalent to Jim Crow.

Shame on you all.

Hang on a damn minute, I have always advocated for universally designed changing rooms. That's not the problem. Forcing already marginalized people into an uncomfortable or dangerous situation because you think their body is a threat to you. That's the problem. I would greatly prefer not to have segregated toilet facilities in the first place, I think that would be a better solution for everyone. But as long as people are using bathrooms as a weapon to enforce the Christian gender binary, not letting people define their own gender withun that system is a serious civil rights issue that gets people - mostly children by the numbers - hurt.

Too bad you do not recognize that women are marginalized in many ways. Their extremely legitimate concerns for safety are to be ignored because men see no reason for women to object to make appearing bodies in their showers, dressing rooms and bathrooms.

Obviously, women, one in four of whom will be raped in her lifetime are simply ridiculous bigots.

Of course the mere idea that men should address their own propensity for violent crimes including sexual violence is seen as just some feminazi crappola.

Women must simply accept that there is no where they can go and feel safe. Anything but men get a grip on their own behavior.

 

[Politesse]

Come to think of it, my great grandmother would have been pretty goddamned upset if she had walked into a gym locker room and found white and black women changing together.

Playing the race card is starting to look like Godwin's Law.

If you don't like something because it interferes with your preferences, compare it to Jim Crow.
Tom

Can you think of any other circumstance in which the law attempted to enforce involuntary segregation of bathroom and changing facilities. What other valid comparison could one possibly make? That is by far the most similar historical-legal analogue to the situation we must now adjudicate as a society, and it is inevitable that we'll be discussing it.

 

[Politesse]

using bathrooms as a weapon to enforce the Christian gender binary,

Bullshit.

It's not Christian and it's not enforcement. There's a restroom for everyone, usually next to each other.

It's more like patriarchal dismissal of women's concerns and feelings.
Tom

Women are more likely than men to be supportive of trans people. A majority female faction within our society is, to you, "the patriarchy"? What definition of patriarchy are you using, here? One in which you (a man yourself, if I'm not mistaken) ignore women's perspectives if they are saying things you don't like, but use them as rhetorical tools if they do?

And yes, forcibly divided bathroom facilities are a purely Christian invention, no older than the 18th century.

 

[Politesse]

Too bad you do not recognize that women are marginalized in many ways.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Sexism is a real and serious problem in our society, and one that I care greatly about. If society weren't already callously cruel to women, trans women would be in far less danger.

 

[Toni]

Too bad you do not recognize that women are marginalized in many ways.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Sexism is a real and serious problem in our society, and one that I care greatly about. If society weren't already callously cruel to women, trans women would be in far less danger.

Then why advocate for a position that is callously cruel to women?

If men were willing to do the very hard work of understanding and eliminating their propensity for violence, women and trans people would be much safer. So would men. We could maybe even solve global warming, hunger and cure cancer.

 

[Politesse]

Obviously, women, one in four of whom will be raped in her lifetime are simply ridiculous bigots.

You're the one claiming to speak for "women", I have rejected your authority to do so from the start. Nor is it true that "men" support trans rights, by the numbers most certainly do not. I have made no essentialist claims about any gender, except that as a matter of civic policy, trans people should not be stripped of the normal rights of a citizen whatever those might be, and that citizens should not be allowed to use their beliefs about gender as a weapon against others.

 

[Politesse]

Then why advocate for a position that is callously cruel to women?

I am advocating for equal treatment of all women under the law. Trans, cis, or otherwise. That isn't cruelty, that is the fundamental right of every American citizen.

 

[Oleg]

Trans, cis, or otherwise.

You can change the law just by changing the definitions of words. Men are now a subcategory of women. Outstanding.

 

[ZiprHead]

Indeed. It's almost as if our culture has some endemic problems with catering to prejudice.

There's a meme on the right that the whole purpose of bringing down these boundaries is to normalize pedophilia. Foucault would approve.

That sounds like the right's problem. They see groomers everywhere.

 

[lostone]

A so-called trans male who rapes women in showers is not really a trans, but a bisexual. One who truly identifies as trans would not be interested in a woman. So this issue is a case of identity fraud. The problem in that case, is not the trans, but their phonies who claim to be trans.

 

[TomC]

Indeed. It's almost as if our culture has some endemic problems with catering to prejudice.

There's a meme on the right that the whole purpose of bringing down these boundaries is to normalize pedophilia. Foucault would approve.

That sounds like the rights problem. They see groomer everywhere.

And the left sees racism and Hitler everywhere.

I don't really see the labels left and right of much importance any more. There's "ideological purists" and the rest of us.

Lefty purists aren't any better than righty purists. Same day, different idiot.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Then why advocate for a position that is callously cruel to women?

I am advocating for equal treatment of all women under the law. Trans, cis, or otherwise. That isn't cruelty, that is the fundamental right of every American citizen.

Identical isn’t the same as equal.

I truly understand that trans women feel more comfortable and more safe in women’s showers and dressing rooms. I understand the importance of being allowed where you feel you belong and can be yourself. And where you can feel safe. Absolutely I understand that and agree that is a right that all human beings should have.

But it is NOT bigotry or some prudish ‘fear of penises!’ for women to feel uncomfortable when they are expected to share spaces where they are unclothed with strangers with penises who are unclothed so that it is unmistakable that the person has a penis.

Cis women are also entitled to have spaces where they feel comfortable and safe. Having to instantaneously evaluate whether or not the naked stranger with a penis standing next to you in the shower is or is not a threat is not a reasonable expectation. Expecting women to simply get over their need and desire for privacy when they are unclothed is not a reasonable expectation, especially given the fact that society forces standards of modesty on women in ways that it does not expect men to show modesty.

Women experience sexual assault and violence at very high rates. If they survive and contact the police they are closely questioned about the circumstances: what they were wearing, what they were doing, how much they were drinking, if they knew their attacker. If they are sure it was rape or didn’t they maybe really mean yes. Did they fight back? Why not?

Women curtail their behavior every single day. They are careful about how they dress, where they go and with whom and what time of day it is and who is around. They carry mace even when it is not legal, or loud alarms. Or both. Sometimes they carry guns.

And as I type this I know—I absolutely know—that there are members reading the above paragraph and who are thrilled that women are afraid. It even turns some of them on. Not you. I don’t mean you.

But go read through the responses today and see if you don’t think that maybe I might be right about what I wrote in the paragraph just preceding this one.

 

[Toni]

A so-called trans male who rapes women in showers is not really a trans, but a bisexual. One who truly identifies as trans would not be interested in a woman. So this issue is a case of identity fraud. The problem in that case, is not the trans, but their phonies who claim to be trans.

I don’t agree: I think an individual can be a trans woman AND attracted to other women. I think a lot are.

 

[lostone]

Then why advocate for a position that is callously cruel to women?

I am advocating for equal treatment of all women under the law. Trans, cis, or otherwise. That isn't cruelty, that is the fundamental right of every American citizen.

Identical isn’t the same as equal.

I truly understand that trans women feel more comfortable and more safe in women’s showers and dressing rooms. I understand the importance of being allowed where you feel you belong and can be yourself. And where you can feel safe. Absolutely I understand that and agree that is a right that all human beings should have.

But it is NOT bigotry or some prudish ‘fear of penises!’ for women to feel uncomfortable when they are expected to share spaces where they are unclothed with strangers with penises who are unclothed so that it is unmistakable that the person has a penis.

Cis women are also entitled to have spaces where they feel comfortable and safe. Having to instantaneously evaluate whether or not the naked stranger with a penis standing next to you in the shower is or is not a threat is not a reasonable expectation. Expecting women to simply get over their need and desire for privacy when they are unclothed is not a reasonable expectation, especially given the fact that society forces standards of modesty on women in ways that it does not expect men to show modesty.

Women experience sexual assault and violence at very high rates. If they survive and contact the police they are closely questioned about the circumstances: what they were wearing, what they were doing, how much they were drinking, if they knew their attacker. If they are sure it was rape or didn’t they maybe really mean yes. Did they fight back? Why not?

Women curtail their behavior every single day. They are careful about how they dress, where they go and with whom and what time of day it is and who is around. They carry mace even when it is not legal, or loud alarms. Or both. Sometimes they carry guns.

And as I type this I know—I absolutely know—that there are members reading the above paragraph and who are thrilled that women are afraid. It even turns some of them on. Not you. I don’t mean you.

But go read through the responses today and see if you don’t think that maybe I might be right about what I wrote in the paragraph just preceding this one.

No rational person would deny that women have serious problems in our culture, and in the entire world. But to protect both women and the small percentage who claim to be trans as best we can is also worthwhile. Even small men face similar problems, in prisons, and no one seems to care to defend them.