The death of Tyre Nichols

[laughing dog]

Do you have any evidence to support your hand waving that the jump is do solely to emboldened criminals

The timing and the race of the victims.

Why would the race of the victims be evidence that the jump is due solely to emboldened criminals.

Still waiting for an explanation

Most homicide is intra-racial. The de-policing was in urban neighborhoods.

But "urban neighborhoods" can be multi-racial. For example, they are in Minneapolis and St. Paul. So, I don't understand how race explains that the jump is solely to emboldened criminals.

 

[Oleg]

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjusttly executing citizens

This is batshit crazy.

It's not my damn argument. Why would it "hurt morale" to protest police killings?

You really believe cops start their shift aiming to “unjustly execute” people every day?

No, I think the entire argument is a fat load of bullshit. BLM is not making police too sad to do their jobs, and neither BLM nor the police are responsible for the recent upswing in murders. The police are incompetent, and BLM though ineffective is right to criticize previous and present abuses of power. But people don't ask for permission from either the police or BLM before deciding to kill somebody. The very idea is absurd.

It surprises you that the criminal element would be more exuberant when the cops go away?

 

[Oleg]

Do you have any evidence to support your hand waving that the jump is do solely to emboldened criminals

The timing and the race of the victims.

Why would the race of the victims be evidence that the jump is due solely to emboldened criminals.

Still waiting for an explanation

Most homicide is intra-racial. The de-policing was in urban neighborhoods.

But "urban neighborhoods" can be multi-racial. For example, they are in Minneapolis and St. Paul. So, I don't understand how race explains that the jump is solely to emboldened criminals.

Most of the excess deaths were black victims.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm nitvespecially convonced that tge police prevent murders at all.

How Californian?
I don't even understand what language you're posting in, maybe Klingon?
Tom

I'm clumsy on the phone.

Aren't we all?

The iPhone keypad is a bazillion times better than Android. I hate the Android keypad. It tries too think way too much for me and the letters are more clumsy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Still waiting for an explanation

Most homicide is intra-racial. The de-policing was in urban neighborhoods.

But "urban neighborhoods" can be multi-racial. For example, they are in Minneapolis and St. Paul. So, I don't understand how race explains that the jump is solely to emboldened criminals.

Most of the excess deaths were black victims.

That doesn't provide causation. The numbers dropped as fast as they rose. So unless you are saying the police went back in and everything was back to normal....

 

[Oleg]

Still waiting for an explanation

Most homicide is intra-racial. The de-policing was in urban neighborhoods.

But "urban neighborhoods" can be multi-racial. For example, they are in Minneapolis and St. Paul. So, I don't understand how race explains that the jump is solely to emboldened criminals.

Most of the excess deaths were black victims.

That doesn't provide causation. The numbers dropped as fast as they rose. So unless you are saying the police went back in and everything was back to normal....

Ah, a lot of people died. Right after the anti-cop Floyd protest began. When the cops pulled back. And the homicide rate for 2021 was still quite high. Can’t say we’ve returned to normal.

 

[Oleg]

 

[Politesse]

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjusttly executing citizens

This is batshit crazy.

It's not my damn argument. Why would it "hurt morale" to protest police killings?

You really believe cops start their shift aiming to “unjustly execute” people every day?

No, I think the entire argument is a fat load of bullshit. BLM is not making police too sad to do their jobs, and neither BLM nor the police are responsible for the recent upswing in murders. The police are incompetent, and BLM though ineffective is right to criticize previous and present abuses of power. But people don't ask for permission from either the police or BLM before deciding to kill somebody. The very idea is absurd.

It surprises you that the criminal element would be more exuberant when the cops go away?

It would surprise me if I thought that was true.

In your world, I guess, two guys are arguing at a bar. One pulls a knife. The other pulls a gun.

In neighborhood A, one of them goes "hold on, there are six police officers patrolling the local precinct; I should calm down and put my weapon away while we seek a peaceful resolution to our disagreement". The matter is resolved.

In neighborhood B, they both think "Wow, due to recent Black Lives Matter protests, there are now only four police patrolling the local precinct rather than the previous six! I should go for the car!" Knife guy dies.

Is that how it's supposed to go? Or are we imagining the police are so on top of things that before BLM, they directly intervened every time a murder was about to happen? Like, they would have already been at the bar, and shot gun guy to death?

Since when does anyone decide whether or not to kill someone else based on the current state of police morale? Usually, people kill each other because they are angry, feel threatened, or stand to gain from the death somehow. Sometimes all three. Not because they heard that Black lives matter.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Still waiting for an explanation

Most homicide is intra-racial. The de-policing was in urban neighborhoods.

But "urban neighborhoods" can be multi-racial. For example, they are in Minneapolis and St. Paul. So, I don't understand how race explains that the jump is solely to emboldened criminals.

Most of the excess deaths were black victims.

That doesn't provide causation. The numbers dropped as fast as they rose. So unless you are saying the police went back in and everything was back to normal....

Ah, a lot of people died. Right after the anti-cop Floyd protest began. When the cops pulled back. And the homicide rate for 2021 was still quite high. Can’t say we’ve returned to normal.

Murder rates went up across America, as has been said. The rates were comparable. The increases coincide with the global health pandemic.

Change in police actions could have an affect on murder and crime rates, but your desire for it to be so, doesn't prove it.

No, I think the entire argument is a fat load of bullshit. BLM is not making police too sad to do their jobs, and neither BLM nor the police are responsible for the recent upswing in murders. The police are incompetent, and BLM though ineffective is right to criticize previous and present abuses of power. But people don't ask for permission from either the police or BLM before deciding to kill somebody. The very idea is absurd.

It surprises you that the criminal element would be more exuberant when the cops go away?

This could be supported by showing suburban and rural crime rates didn't go up the same relative amounts.

 

[Oleg]

Murder rates went up across America, as has been said. The rates were comparable. The increases coincide with the global health pandemic.

So Japan, S. Korea, Israel, China, India, etc., all suffered a dramatic uptick in homicide starting end of May 2020? ‘Cause of Covid?

 

[Politesse]

I would love to see the court trial where an accused murder tries to pin their crime on reduced police morale in their neighborhood. "I'm tellin' ya, Judge, I truly didn't mean to kill my wife. But the police just looked so sad that day."

 

[Oleg]

I would love to see the court trial where an accused murder tries to pin their crime on reduced police morale in their neighborhood. "I'm tellin' ya, Judge, I truly didn't mean to kill my wife. But the police just looked so sad that day."

So you think LD’s “pent up rage” excuse is stupid, too?

 

[Politesse]

I would love to see the court trial where an accused murder tries to pin their crime on reduced police morale in their neighborhood. "I'm tellin' ya, Judge, I truly didn't mean to kill my wife. But the police just looked so sad that day."

So you think LD’s “pent up rage” excuse is stupid, too?

I don't think any part of this discussion, thus far, has borne any resemblance whatsoever to the study of criminology or why murders occur.

 

[lpetrich]

The rapid destruction of the black family unit began in the 1960s. Thank your liberal friends for that.

What is that great unified Borg-like hive-mind entity, the "black family unit"?

 

[laughing dog]

Most of the excess deaths were black victims.

There should be a jump in homicides if all races because many urban neighborhoods are multiracial. So your “emboldened criminal” rationale seems lacking.

 

[Toni]

I have stayed my objections to this phony and unevidenced line reasoning, and stand by that. But even if it were true...

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjustly executing citizens is to "withdraw" and stop policing altogether, that is strong evidence that BLM was correct to criticize American policing in the first place. Personally, I'll take a momentary bump in the murder rate if it is the price of re-establishing the rule of law and the fundamental rights of citizens. Ordering the police not to murder people should not "reduce morale", and if it does, we need new police or no police. What good is it to have peace at the cost of terror?

I'm not especially convinced that the police prevent murders at all. If we're so convinced that correlation always proves causation, what does it mean that the areas the police patrol most heavily also see the most murders? If they see their job as stopping murders from happening, they clearly aren't very effective at doing so. Nor do I think they do see that as their job. At least around here, they usually show up a half hour after the murder, to shoot the family dog and arrest folks. Never heard of a police officer stopping a future murder from occurring.

A quibble here: I think that police DO in fact help prevent murders and other homicides in certain situations, namely in cases of domestic violence and DWIs. Domestic violence is known to increase in intensity and violence over time. By arresting the perpetrator of violence, at the very least it buys the victim some time to escape, to make plans to escape, to gather resources and get help to leave --something that takes multiple tries, on average.

I think that arrests for DWIs helping to prevent homicides is pretty obvious. That's the reason it is illegal to drive with a BAC over the legal limit: driving under the influence puts everyone in your vehicle and everyone on the road (or nearby sidewalks) at risk of serious injury or death.

I live in a not very big town and it is very easy to see the jail census at any given time. Of the 21 individuals currently incarcerated in the county lock up, one has been sentenced for his offences and I would assume will soon be transported to whatever facility he was sentenced to. There are 4 other individuals who are being held on DWI charges and 6 on domestic assault charges and/or violating an order of protection. Almost all of the cases, including the ones I have mentioned include charges re: alcohol or drugs.

This is just a usual week in the life of my town. Probably every single town in the US.

 

[TomC]

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjustly executing citizens is to "withdraw" and stop policing altogether,

Seriously?
That's your take on the subject?

Tom

 

[Politesse]

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjustly executing citizens is to "withdraw" and stop policing altogether,

Seriously?
That's your take on the subject?

Tom

No, that's me being extremely annoyed by a dumb folk theory about BLM causing murder rates to rise. Critiquing police violence should not result in their being unable to do their job, even if murder prevention were their primary job.

 

[Politesse]

I have stayed my objections to this phony and unevidenced line reasoning, and stand by that. But even if it were true...

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjustly executing citizens is to "withdraw" and stop policing altogether, that is strong evidence that BLM was correct to criticize American policing in the first place. Personally, I'll take a momentary bump in the murder rate if it is the price of re-establishing the rule of law and the fundamental rights of citizens. Ordering the police not to murder people should not "reduce morale", and if it does, we need new police or no police. What good is it to have peace at the cost of terror?

I'm not especially convinced that the police prevent murders at all. If we're so convinced that correlation always proves causation, what does it mean that the areas the police patrol most heavily also see the most murders? If they see their job as stopping murders from happening, they clearly aren't very effective at doing so. Nor do I think they do see that as their job. At least around here, they usually show up a half hour after the murder, to shoot the family dog and arrest folks. Never heard of a police officer stopping a future murder from occurring.

A quibble here: I think that police DO in fact help prevent murders and other homicides in certain situations, namely in cases of domestic violence and DWIs. Domestic violence is known to increase in intensity and violence over time. By arresting the perpetrator of violence, at the very least it buys the victim some time to escape, to make plans to escape, to gather resources and get help to leave --something that takes multiple tries, on average.

I think that arrests for DWIs helping to prevent homicides is pretty obvious. That's the reason it is illegal to drive with a BAC over the legal limit: driving under the influence puts everyone in your vehicle and everyone on the road (or nearby sidewalks) at risk of serious injury or death.

I live in a not very big town and it is very easy to see the jail census at any given time. Of the 21 individuals currently incarcerated in the county lock up, one has been sentenced for his offences and I would assume will soon be transported to whatever facility he was sentenced to. There are 4 other individuals who are being held on DWI charges and 6 on domestic assault charges and/or violating an order of protection. Almost all of the cases, including the ones I have mentioned include charges re: alcohol or drugs.

This is just a usual week in the life of my town. Probably every single town in the US.

I will concede the point here. I do not consider the police useless; they are also first responders in many situations of critical importance. But I don't see how their useful functions could be in any way impaired by Black Lives Matter. They should not decide whether or not to help a victim of domestic violence or not based on whether or not the public likes them at the moment, nor do I believe that they in fact do.

 

[Derec]

Critiquing police violence should not result in their being unable to do their job, even if murder prevention were their primary job.

But that's not what #BLM have been doing since 2014. Their MO is not genteel "critique", but rather rioting and "burning this bitch down" (to quote Michael Brown's mother's boyfriend's incitement).
"What do we want? Dead cops!" or "Pigs in a blanket; fry them like bacon" are not thoughtful critique either. At best, it's immature ranting. At worst, it's incitement to violence up to and including murder.

Note also your term "police violence". Police, by their very nature, do often have to exert physical force, aka violence, in order to do their job. The issue is not police violence as such, but unjustified police violence. #BLM have a hard time distinguishing the two, esp. when the person on whom police exerted physical force is black. A black thug can shoot two people before being gunned down by police, and #BLM will still be protesting his death.