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The death of Tyre Nichols

I have stayed my objections to this phony and unevidenced line reasoning, and stand by that. But even if it were true...

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjustly executing citizens is to "withdraw" and stop policing altogether, that is strong evidence that BLM was correct to criticize American policing in the first place. Personally, I'll take a momentary bump in the murder rate if it is the price of re-establishing the rule of law and the fundamental rights of citizens. Ordering the police not to murder people should not "reduce morale", and if it does, we need new police or no police. What good is it to have peace at the cost of terror?
And have you stopped beating your wife?

The thing is you are assuming that the cases are unjust. Some are, some aren't. The protests tend to die down in the cases the police were acting properly but it's still a fire, ready, aim type response. Note that this will be much more of a deterrent to the people who are trying to be fair than the ones who get off on the brutality and think they're not going to be punished.
 
I've got a question for all the cop apologists; when was a cop unfairly treated? Can you actually describe this culture of unfair treatment with causal links?
Look at this very case. A cop that wasn't at the scene and wasn't in charge was fired.
 

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.
You seem to resort to made up responses that appear to be based on bigotry and bias rather than give actual responses, not to mention insulting other posters.
To say something produced an unintended outcome is bigotry?!?!

Worse by far, though, is that you misrepresent the mission of BLM, which I have brought over from their mission statement, in hopes that you will read the mission statement and become better informed.:
[Quote out of sequence]
There is NO statement of purpose to save black lives, as you misrepresented in your post.

Foot, meet bullet.


#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.
[Emphasis added]
Lovely complement, Loren. Thanks.

It’s nice to see that you are unable to recognize that your bias does not allow you to recognize your bias. You make statements that are not based on data or facts. You start with the assumption that BLM caused an increase in deaths of black people but you show nothing at all to back up your assertion.

Also you don’t read so good.
I see no rebuttal here. How is stopping violence on black communities by the state not equate to saving black lives?
 

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.
You seem to resort to made up responses that appear to be based on bigotry and bias rather than give actual responses, not to mention insulting other posters.
To say something produced an unintended outcome is bigotry?!?!

Worse by far, though, is that you misrepresent the mission of BLM, which I have brought over from their mission statement, in hopes that you will read the mission statement and become better informed.:
[Quote out of sequence]
There is NO statement of purpose to save black lives, as you misrepresented in your post.

Foot, meet bullet.


#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.
[Emphasis added]
Lovely complement, Loren. Thanks.

It’s nice to see that you are unable to recognize that your bias does not allow you to recognize your bias. You make statements that are not based on data or facts. You start with the assumption that BLM caused an increase in deaths of black people but you show nothing at all to back up your assertion.

Also you don’t read so good.
I see no rebuttal here. How is stopping violence on black communities by the state not equate to saving black lives?
When the state is the one doing the taking of black lives.
 
Last edited:
I've got a question for all the cop apologists; when was a cop unfairly treated? Can you actually describe this culture of unfair treatment with causal links?
Look at this very case. A cop that wasn't at the scene and wasn't in charge was fired.
How on EARTH do you know that the officers who were fired but not on the scene were fired unfairly? You don't. Your pro-police stance has blinded you to the possibility that officers not on scene contributed to the events of the death of Nichols.
 

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.
You seem to resort to made up responses that appear to be based on bigotry and bias rather than give actual responses, not to mention insulting other posters.
To say something produced an unintended outcome is bigotry?!?!

Worse by far, though, is that you misrepresent the mission of BLM, which I have brought over from their mission statement, in hopes that you will read the mission statement and become better informed.:
[Quote out of sequence]
There is NO statement of purpose to save black lives, as you misrepresented in your post.

Foot, meet bullet.


#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.
[Emphasis added]
Lovely complement, Loren. Thanks.

It’s nice to see that you are unable to recognize that your bias does not allow you to recognize your bias. You make statements that are not based on data or facts. You start with the assumption that BLM caused an increase in deaths of black people but you show nothing at all to back up your assertion.

Also you don’t read so good.
Nice edit, Loren.
 
I've got a question for all the cop apologists; when was a cop unfairly treated? Can you actually describe this culture of unfair treatment with causal links?
Look at this very case. A cop that wasn't at the scene and wasn't in charge was fired.
How on EARTH do you know that the officers who were fired but not on the scene were fired unfairly? You don't. Your pro-police stance has blinded you to the possibility that officers not on scene contributed to the events of the death of Nichols.
You have it backwards--where's the evidence that they deserved firing? There hasn't been time for an adequate investigation. Investigate, then fire. When you fire to appease the public you demoralize the police and make the problem worse.
 
There are legitimate reasons for body cameras to have off switches. I can see very little reason for car cameras to even have off switches.
So they came to a scene with a man severely beaten up by cops. The next thing to do is ask what happened and how they can help.

Instead, they turned off their body cams as the first thing. Presumably, they then asked what happened off-camera.

Then, one or more didn't report their presence at the scene of what became known crime to them.

What are the legitimate reasons for doing that?
 
You have it backwards--where's the evidence that they deserved firing? There hasn't been time for an adequate investigation. Investigate, then fire. When you fire to appease the public you demoralize the police and make the problem worse.
Where is the evidence they were fired to appease the public?
 
I've got a question for all the cop apologists; when was a cop unfairly treated? Can you actually describe this culture of unfair treatment with causal links?
Look at this very case. A cop that wasn't at the scene and wasn't in charge was fired.
How on EARTH do you know that the officers who were fired but not on the scene were fired unfairly? You don't. Your pro-police stance has blinded you to the possibility that officers not on scene contributed to the events of the death of Nichols.
Or the possibility they lied to superiors or on reports in an attempt to cover up the unjustified use of lethal force of the officers who were on scene.


** I see Don2 has already provided the answer.
 
The 60s? We (America) took the wrong turn in race relations when they allowed those who fought against the Union to stay in power.
There have been several wrong turns - the first one in North America being to introduce slavery in the first place.
However, I was talking about the wrong turn our country is still on. By subscribing to identity politics and demanding special treatment of people by race and ethnicity, the Left has made it impossible to heal from racial divides.
We need to stop going this wrong way. Ending so-called "affirmative action" will be a first step. But there will be a backlash. Colleges getting rid of SATs is a way to have fewer objective measures so they can practice racial preferences on the down low (like Harvard is doing with their bogus personality scores). I fear the same for medical schools - will MCAT soon become optional? Or will AAMC destroy it by making it about parroting the orthodox racial doctrine rather than about scientific underpinnings of medicine?

We took the wrong turn when even after the civil rights movement black people who were trying to build something for themselves were prevented from doing so. We took the wrong turn when black people finally built something, weather it was schools, businesses, their own community, white racist fucks were allowed to destroy it all.
Racist fucks destroying things is obviously wrong, but that has been happening in, what, 1920s?
More recently it was race riots like in Bronx in 1960s and
Also, while it is laudable to build things, I do not think separatism is good. For example, black colleges were a necessary evil back when blacks were prevented to go to established centers of higher learning. But now? What is the utility of separating yourself in colleges that define themselves by race?
Same thing goes for companies, neighborhoods etc. There is no reason they should be defined by race.
That too is part of the wrong turn.

So now that the black community who have for centuries been told we aint shit, now that some of us start to believe it; it's our fault.
First of all, you need to stop thinking in terms of "black community" but rather in terms of individuals. Fault is with the individuals. As is being "shit" or "ain't shit". Communities, black, white, purple, are made up of individuals - some good, others bad.
Thinking "[you] ain't shit" because you are black is wrong, but so is thinking you are all kings and queens just because of the melanin (which also supposedly has magic powers)

The wrong turns just keep on coming.
Indeed.
 
This is a fair take. Only thing I'd like to slip in is the fact that BLM is not a hive mind regardless of the appearance of it being such.
Sure. At the same time, if you saw what happened in Ferguson and elsewhere in the name of #BLM, but you still march under that banner, you are either complicit or naïve.
 
Bringing up Ferguson in this thread is like bringing up the Duke Lacrosse team. Sure, things happened. But it's a secondary derail on a primary derail that already had an at-best questionable conclusion. Why do it? Is it a mental deflection because of some kind cognitive dissonance generated by the original topic of an innocent black man killed by police? Does the fact they were black police somehow make conservatives flip out and start screaming, "it can't be racism because Black people! BLM did it!" Then, when they realize BLM didn't do it, they have to bring up BLM in May 2020 and then when it seems that was other factors, they have to bring up BLM something else? It's very weird behavior and illogical.

Still, it might be worthwhile to review some facts regarding the primary derail.

First, the claim is that BLM was engaged in carnage post-George-Floyd protests that explains a higher murder rate of Black victims across the country that peaked in July 2020. Here is a monthly breakdown of homicide rate that includes the July 2020 peak:
graph.PNG

To review--George Floyd was murdered May 25th. Any alleged effect from violent riots allegedly orchestrated by BLM we expect to observe in the consolidated May number and perhaps also June. Yet, we still see a seasonal peak in July numbers and a drop-off after July like we normally see for the seasonal cycle of murders. Moreover, if we look prior to May, we see April 2020 is higher than all the other Aprils in the graph. We observe March 2020 is higher than all the other March's. We see that Feb 2020 is higher than all the other Feb's.

But let's not stop there. If you look at the other statistic that Oleg brought up, Black victims of homicide, that graph goes back to 2014. We can observe that Feb 2020 is the highest Feb back to Feb 2014. But that isn't the only trend. March 2020 is also the highest. And so is April 2020 out of all the Aprils. April 2020 is so high that it is higher than most of the July seasonal peaks from previous years:
CDCgraph.jpg


To review some dates here--George Floyd wasn't murdered until May 25th, 2020. February, March, and April are all calendar months that occur prior to May. Logically, there is an increasing trend of homicides that occurred prior to George Floyd's death that isn't understood well enough.

There are a few other facts in regard to post-George-Floyd protests that ought to be mentioned. Yes, there was some violence around the protests. No one is sayin there wasn't. But let's look at this rationally with some statistics in mind. If we define violence very loosely to include vandalism and property damage, not merely homicides, we see that the vast majority of protests post-George-Floyd's death were non-violent. Yes, there were murders, assaults and other crimes that occurred at some, but those were in the minority of a minority of protests. For example, one group estimated that in 93% of the protests there was completely peace and nothing violent at all using that loose definition of violence to include property damage and vandalism. Another analytical group estimated peaceful protests above 96% of the protests. It is clear that there was some violence including significant crimes and lesser crimes but murders were pretty rare.

Within that small percent range of violence, (at least one) protester or bystander was at least injured or even killed at 1.6% events. So this again is a loose statistic since injuries are far more common than deaths. So, you expect homicides associated with the demonstrations to be far less than 1.6% of protests. One article written documents 19 dead within the first 2 weeks of protests where the deaths were somehow associated with the protest. Many of those were non-ideological, like a victim of a carjacking, etc. Any that were due to extremists out of control, were very few, and probably the same magnitude as police and white nationalists and militia groups killing people, too, very small.

Looting is a real thing that happened. Yes, it happened. Most of the looters were non-ideological and taking advantage of a situation.

In any case, clearly, BLM did not go out and murder all the Black homicide victims throughout the country.

Upon learning how ridiculous that is, some right-wingers changed their argument to say that police got angry at BLM and police reforms and so refused to do their jobs. This is so weird coming from right-wingers that angst over Black people led them to throw police under the bus....Police....whom they have supported with rhetoric over and over, like Back the Blue, and Blue Live Matter, and Police are the Heroes. Suddenly, they're accusing them of neglect because police are crybabies?

Because I have some pity on right-wingers, I am going to try to help them out a little bit with a more coherent hypothesis. Perhaps, it is possible that during the protests which coincided with the pandemic, police were being stretched very, very thin. They were already experiencing absences due to covid and probably contact with sick limiting duties. It is plausible that this created a void of coverage in some neighborhoods where there were no protests but still high areas of crime.

It isn't clear how little this could impact statistics of homicides, but we already know from the graphs that homicides were increasing prior to the protests.

And none of this has anything to do with Tyre Nichols' death.
 
Yet, we still see a seasonal peak in July numbers and a drop-off after July
Dude, that spike did not occur in previous years. Did you look at the graph you posted (first posted Oleg the Terrible)?
In any case, clearly, BLM did not go out and murder all the Black homicide victims throughout the country.
Of course, not. BLM and the political and media establishment just demonized police. That the police pulled back is a fact, already posted in this thread.
It isn't clear how little this could impact statistics of homicides, but we already know from the graphs that homicides were increasing prior to the protests.
No. That is not true. While there is a seasonal pattern to homicide, that does not explain the excess black homicide deaths post-Floyd. It also doesn’t explain the similar massive jump in black vehicular fatalities starting June 2020. But cops reluctant to pull over black drivers, does.
 
There are legitimate reasons for body cameras to have off switches. I can see very little reason for car cameras to even have off switches.
So they came to a scene with a man severely beaten up by cops. The next thing to do is ask what happened and how they can help.

Instead, they turned off their body cams as the first thing. Presumably, they then asked what happened off-camera.

Then, one or more didn't report their presence at the scene of what became known crime to them.

What are the legitimate reasons for doing that?
Saying the should have off switches is not saying they should have used them in this case.
 
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