The death of Tyre Nichols

[Derec]

This could be supported by showing suburban and rural crime rates didn't go up the same relative amounts.

In 2020, we had #BLMers riot as far north as Gainesville. That's over 50 miles from downtown Atlanta.

 

[Derec]

The iPhone keypad is a bazillion times better than Android. I hate the Android keypad. It tries too think way too much for me and the letters are more clumsy.

Android keyboard is customizable. You can turn off the "thinking way too much" pretty easily. What I like about the Android keyboard is that I can have a number row as well as special characters displayed with the letters. I can summon special characters (like $ or # and such) as well as foreign characters (e.g. ö or é or š) derived from that letter with a simple long-click without having to change to a "special character" keyboard every time. Every single time somebody handed me an infernal iPhone to type something the keyboard lacked the number row and no special chars were displayed next to their letters. Either you can't set it up that way, or none of those disciples of Jobs bothered to change the factory default.

 

[Derec]

No, I think the entire argument is a fat load of bullshit. BLM is not making police too sad to do their jobs, and neither BLM nor the police are responsible for the recent upswing in murders.

It's not about police having a sad. The most obvious causal link is the dead bodies in #BLM autonomous zones where police were kept out. In Seattle, #BLMers occupied several city blocks for weeks. The occupied area included a police station. '

The then mayor Jenny Durkan was supportive of the occupiers and did not want police to take back the occupied territory. There were several shootings (with 2 dead) and other crimes in the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone that probably would not have happened otherwise.

In Atlanta, there was also an armed autonomous zone established, in honor of DUI driver (who attacked police officers with a taser he took from one of them) Rayshard Brooks, around the Wendy's where he met his and and which #BLMers burned down.

Like in Seattle, the Atlanta mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms refused to order police to reestablish order. The result was the murder of an 8 year old girl, and only then did the mayor decide to end the occupation. Unfortunately Bottoms failed upward, and is now part of the Biden administration.

 

[Derec]

It's not my damn argument. Why would it "hurt morale" to protest police killings?

When the protests are about justified killings, they might. Especially when the city elected officials side with the protesters/rioters.
Add to that police officers being thrown under the bus, fired, maybe even indicted, just to appease rioters.
Take officer Garrett Rolfe, the one who shot Rayshard Brooks. He was promptly fired, and then also indicted by the former Fulton County DA, even though Brooks assaulted him and his partner. Eventually the charges were dropped and he was reinstated in his job.
Nevertheless, knowing that you may be fired or even indicted just to appease a violent mob, even if you did nothing wrong, is horrible for the morale.

 

[Derec]

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjustly executing citizens is to "withdraw" and stop policing altogether, that is strong evidence that BLM was correct to criticize American policing in the first place.

Police unjustly killing citizens is a small percentage of all police killings. Vast majority of police killings have an armed perp.


Even in cases where the perp is unarmed, they often still attack the police officer, necessitating deadly force.

Even among unjustified police killings, some are accidental, some are result from police making mistakes. Those that can, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as "executions" are exceedingly rare.

Personally, I'll take a momentary bump in the murder rate if it is the price of re-establishing the rule of law and the fundamental rights of citizens.

Murder is not part of the "rule of law". I do not see how letting crime run rampant would help matters in any way. This is the line of thought advocated by "abolish the police" nutjobs.

Ordering the police not to murder people should not "reduce morale", and if it does, we need new police or no police. What good is it to have peace at the cost of terror?

Police officer who engage in murder usually get indicted and convicted. And compared to all police shootings, and even more compared to all police-civilian interactions, murders by police officers are rare.
It is not that "ordering the police not to murder people" would reduce morale, but stupid shit like dismantling the entire street crime unit, or prohibiting police to conduct traffic stops. I.e., not letting them do their jobs. Also, danger of getting prosecuted even when you did nothing wrong, just because it is politically expedient.

I'm not especially convinced that the police prevent murders at all. If we're so convinced that correlation always proves causation, what does it mean that the areas the police patrol most heavily also see the most murders?

Obviously, correlation does not prove causation. But often there is causation. The thing is, causation can often go both ways. In this case, it is almost certainly the case that these areas have more police patrols because they have high crime rates, and not the other way around.

If they see their job as stopping murders from happening, they clearly aren't very effective at doing so.

To be able to say that, we would have to run an experiment where you do away with police for a time. The closest to such an experiment have been the police-free autonomous zones of the Summer of Floyd, and they degenerated into mayhem and murder.

Nor do I think they do see that as their job. At least around here, they usually show up a half hour after the murder, to shoot the family dog and arrest folks. Never heard of a police officer stopping a future murder from occurring.

They can't be anywhere, so it is not surprising they do not prevent many murders directly, but I am sure the existence of police, including murder police, deters a lot of killings. Locking up people can also prevent future murders.

 

[Politesse]

Nevertheless, knowing that you may be fired or even indicted just to appease a violent mob, even if you did nothing wrong, is horrible for the morale.

And so you allow even more innocent citizens to be hurt, because you don't have the nerve to do your job unless everyone is patting your back. Thanks, cop. I feel so safe.

 

[Patooka]

I've got a question for all the cop apologists; when was a cop unfairly treated? Can you actually describe this culture of unfair treatment with causal links?

 

[Derec]

#BLM formed out of the Martin murder.

What Martin murder? Do you mean Trayvon? That was ruled self-defense and evidence bears that out (Z had injuries to his head, and Trayvon had bruised knuckles, consistent with Z being given a can of "whoop ass" to use Precious' verbiage).
In any case, #BLM might have officially formed in 2013, but they were pretty obscure until the Ferguson riots. Btw, that shooting (as well as others in and around St. Louis in that time that often also sparked #BLM rioting like that of Vonderitt Myers and Antonio Martin) turned out to be justified. Michael Brown robbed a convenience store (later ransacked by rioters) and attacked a police officer.

Why is it that the crime stats seem to be cyclical, then bump up right at the time there is a GLOBAL PANDEMIC?

The pandemic surely caused the Summer of Floyd riots to be more explosive and violent. That does not change the fact that they contributed to general sense of lawlessness in 2020. Do you think cities in countries that did not experience George Floyd riots also saw murder rate increases similar to those in the US where every major city was victim of widespread #BLM riots?

Also, how is #BLM responsible for motor vehicle accidents that follow a similar trend.

Well, #BLMers often block traffic, which is inherently dangerous. During the George Floyd riots in St. Louis a man was killed when the FedEx truck he and his buddies wanted to loot tried to drive off, trapping him. In Seattle, a woman was killed when a man drove onto the Interstate #BLMers blocked off. A year later, during riots for Winston Boogie Smith, a woman was likewise killed by a man driving through the barricades.

What those two charts tell me is that whites were less engaged during the spring causing this bump.

What do you mean, less engaged?

 

[Derec]

That's just they way I see it. Many people disagree with me from all races (my own included). I respect and understand their opinions but I call it how I see it.

It's not that you are wrong here. You are certainly right that slavery severed black Americans from their heritage. Among its many horrible consequences.

The question is though, what should that mean for today? And for the future?
And this is where we will disagree. I think the US took a very wrong approach on race. Wrong turn in the 60s when liberal intelligentsia and glitterati (like Marlon Brando who spoke at a rally honoring a Panther who was killed when Black Panthers ambushed cops in Oakland) embraced black nationalism and extremism. We are still paying for that misstep I think.
This led to >50 years of things like so-called "affirmative action". It hampers racial integration precisely because it codifies separation and unequal treatment by race and ethnicity into institutions like universities and corporations. There are other ways in which culture has enforced the separateness of black and white. Things like n-word privileges or cultural appropriation to hyperemphasis on DEI over individual merit. Also things like the so-called "Crown Act" that purports to combat discrimination against black hair, but does the opposite - it privileges it, which is itself a form of discrimination. A dress code can prescribe hair length for white hair, but blacks can wear their hair long, because it gets defined as a "black hairstyle". The very name 'Crown Act" of course is a reference to the "kings and queens" trope common in black nationalist circles.

So, to sum up, we took a wrong turn in the 60s and instead of fixing the racial gap, more and more is added to it through special treatment, all in the name of "diversity", "equity" and similar buzzwords.

 

[Derec]

No, BLM is about reducing police violence towards blacks.

Including when that violence is necessary to effect an arrest or prevent other crime.
They are all about race, and do not care for facts or circumstances.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Officials: Deputies suspended in Tyre Nichols case didn't keep bodycams on

The deputies were suspended for five days without pay for failing to keep their bodycams and in-car video turned on while at the arrest location

www.police1.com

 

[Gospel]

That's just they way I see it. Many people disagree with me from all races (my own included). I respect and understand their opinions but I call it how I see it.

It's not that you are wrong here. You are certainly right that slavery severed black Americans from their heritage. Among its many horrible consequences.

The question is though, what should that mean for today? And for the future?
And this is where we will disagree. I think the US took a very wrong approach on race. Wrong turn in the 60s when liberal intelligentsia and glitterati (like Marlon Brando who spoke at a rally honoring a Panther who was killed when Black Panthers ambushed cops in Oakland) embraced black nationalism and extremism. We are still paying for that misstep I think.
This led to >50 years of things like so-called "affirmative action". It hampers racial integration precisely because it codifies separation and unequal treatment by race and ethnicity into institutions like universities and corporations. There are other ways in which culture has enforced the separateness of black and white. Things like n-word privileges or cultural appropriation to hyperemphasis on DEI over individual merit. Also things like the so-called "Crown Act" that purports to combat discrimination against black hair, but does the opposite - it privileges it, which is itself a form of discrimination. A dress code can prescribe hair length for white hair, but blacks can wear their hair long, because it gets defined as a "black hairstyle". The very name 'Crown Act" of course is a reference to the "kings and queens" trope common in black nationalist circles.

So, to sum up, we took a wrong turn in the 60s and instead of fixing the racial gap, more and more is added to it through special treatment, all in the name of "diversity", "equity" and similar buzzwords.

The 60s? We (America) took the wrong turn in race relations when they allowed those who fought against the Union to stay in power. We took the wrong turn when black people were left at the mercy of their past (yet still present) slave masters. We took the wrong turn when even after the civil rights movement black people who were trying to build something for themselves were prevented from doing so. We took the wrong turn when black people finally built something, weather it was schools, businesses, their own community, white racist fucks were allowed to destroy it all. So now that the black community who have for centuries been told we aint shit, now that some of us start to believe it; it's our fault.


The wrong turns just keep on coming.

 

[laughing dog]

No, BLM is about reducing police violence towards blacks.

Including when that violence is necessary to effect an arrest or prevent other crime.
They are all about race, and do not care for facts or circumstances.

For that matter, the same can be said about police apologists.

 

[Toni]

I have stayed my objections to this phony and unevidenced line reasoning, and stand by that. But even if it were true...

If the only way the police can think of to stop unjustly executing citizens is to "withdraw" and stop policing altogether, that is strong evidence that BLM was correct to criticize American policing in the first place. Personally, I'll take a momentary bump in the murder rate if it is the price of re-establishing the rule of law and the fundamental rights of citizens. Ordering the police not to murder people should not "reduce morale", and if it does, we need new police or no police. What good is it to have peace at the cost of terror?

I'm not especially convinced that the police prevent murders at all. If we're so convinced that correlation always proves causation, what does it mean that the areas the police patrol most heavily also see the most murders? If they see their job as stopping murders from happening, they clearly aren't very effective at doing so. Nor do I think they do see that as their job. At least around here, they usually show up a half hour after the murder, to shoot the family dog and arrest folks. Never heard of a police officer stopping a future murder from occurring.

A quibble here: I think that police DO in fact help prevent murders and other homicides in certain situations, namely in cases of domestic violence and DWIs. Domestic violence is known to increase in intensity and violence over time. By arresting the perpetrator of violence, at the very least it buys the victim some time to escape, to make plans to escape, to gather resources and get help to leave --something that takes multiple tries, on average.

I think that arrests for DWIs helping to prevent homicides is pretty obvious. That's the reason it is illegal to drive with a BAC over the legal limit: driving under the influence puts everyone in your vehicle and everyone on the road (or nearby sidewalks) at risk of serious injury or death.

I live in a not very big town and it is very easy to see the jail census at any given time. Of the 21 individuals currently incarcerated in the county lock up, one has been sentenced for his offences and I would assume will soon be transported to whatever facility he was sentenced to. There are 4 other individuals who are being held on DWI charges and 6 on domestic assault charges and/or violating an order of protection. Almost all of the cases, including the ones I have mentioned include charges re: alcohol or drugs.

This is just a usual week in the life of my town. Probably every single town in the US.

I will concede the point here. I do not consider the police useless; they are also first responders in many situations of critical importance. But I don't see how their useful functions could be in any way impaired by Black Lives Matter. They should not decide whether or not to help a victim of domestic violence or not based on whether or not the public likes them at the moment, nor do I believe that they in fact do.

I agree completely.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.

No, BLM is about reducing police violence towards blacks.

Which doesn't mean they get a pass on other effects.

But your argument is that the uptick in murders is due to a reduced police presence. That makes it the police’s responsibility.

You're setting an impossible standard for them, though.

I don’t think the uptick is due to a reduced police presence.

Explain why it only happened in cities with substantial BLM protests.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think there was a lot of pent up rage in the communities where there protests that was ignited by police violence.

It's this peculiar but dangerous conspiracy theory on the left the the police are just shooting up black people for no reason. Another example of statstical ignorace. So if there is "pent up rage," it because black people have been persistently lied to.

Shooting isn't the problem. It's the George Floyds that are the problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.

You seem to resort to made up responses that appear to be based on bigotry and bias rather than give actual responses, not to mention insulting other posters.

To say something produced an unintended outcome is bigotry?!?!

Worse by far, though, is that you misrepresent the mission of BLM, which I have brought over from their mission statement, in hopes that you will read the mission statement and become better informed.:

[Quote out of sequence]

There is NO statement of purpose to save black lives, as you misrepresented in your post.

Foot, meet bullet.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.

[Emphasis added]

 

[Gospel]

Critiquing police violence should not result in their being unable to do their job, even if murder prevention were their primary job.

But that's not what #BLM have been doing since 2014. Their MO is not genteel "critique", but rather rioting and "burning this bitch down" (to quote Michael Brown's mother's boyfriend's incitement).
"What do we want? Dead cops!" or "Pigs in a blanket; fry them like bacon" are not thoughtful critique either. At best, it's immature ranting. At worst, it's incitement to violence up to and including murder.

Note also your term "police violence". Police, by their very nature, do often have to exert physical force, aka violence, in order to do their job. The issue is not police violence as such, but unjustified police violence. #BLM have a hard time distinguishing the two, esp. when the person on whom police exerted physical force is black. A black thug can shoot two people before being gunned down by police, and #BLM will still be protesting his death.

This is a fair take. Only thing I'd like to slip in is the fact that BLM is not a hive mind regardless of the appearance of it being such. There were (and may still be) law abiding citizens that can tell the difference that were frustrated with the messaging. To not realize that is to make the same error as mistaking the people who stormed our capital on Jan 6th with every single person that voted for Trump.

 

[Toni]

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.

You seem to resort to made up responses that appear to be based on bigotry and bias rather than give actual responses, not to mention insulting other posters.

To say something produced an unintended outcome is bigotry?!?!

Worse by far, though, is that you misrepresent the mission of BLM, which I have brought over from their mission statement, in hopes that you will read the mission statement and become better informed.:

[Quote out of sequence]

There is NO statement of purpose to save black lives, as you misrepresented in your post.

Foot, meet bullet.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.

[Emphasis added]

Lovely complement, Loren. Thanks.

It’s nice to see that you are unable to recognize that your bias does not allow you to recognize your bias. You make statements that are not based on data or facts. You start with the assumption that BLM caused an increase in deaths of black people but you show nothing at all to back up your assertion.

Also you don’t read so good.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IMO the increases in homicides is a combination of many things, not just one singular issue. The pandemic effected prison and jail occupancy which effected arrests and incarceration decisions. A few officers fucked up at their jobs leading to BLM protests. BLM protests (thanks to the assholes who took advantage to loot and burn) effected the community & police engagement, which in turn increased private gun sales, uncertainty and tensions in the community. The media beating drums & droning on about it from all angles. This all created the perfect environment for criminals with violent tendencies to believe they'd less likely be caught because everyone is busy. It's simular to that feeling you have when approaching a police car on the side of the road at speed. Your instinct is to slow down, but if they're already busy with another traffic stop, you're like, pfft fuck it.

Except BLM's record isn't very accurate. Victim = black and not actually shooting at police = protest.