Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Loren Pechtel]

When I see a movement consistently present crap data for their position I'm left with the conclusion that they have no good data and reality is almost certainly the

Yeah.
That's why I don't take BLM too seriously.
Oh well...
Tom

They're not very accurate but they do have some good data points--things like George Floyd.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still haven't presented any solution for the problem of the female-presenting person with a penis risking their life by going into a men's room in redneck territory.

Let me know when penis presenting humans are in more danger in the male restrooms than humans with vaginas are with males in the restroom.

Males are far more dangerous to females than females are to males.
Are you really unable to understand that?
Tom

I don't have any good answer for male-presenting with vaginas. That's a problem either way.

 

[Jarhyn]

You still haven't presented any solution for the problem of the female-presenting person with a penis risking their life by going into a men's room in redneck territory.

Let me know when penis presenting humans are in more danger in the male restrooms than humans with vaginas are with males in the restroom.

Males are far more dangerous to females than females are to males.
Are you really unable to understand that?
Tom

I don't have any good answer for male-presenting with vaginas. That's a problem either way.

What you're not catching is the clever conflation from "sperms" to "penis". One of these poses a risk of creating pregnancies. One of these things poses no more risk to any person than a person with hands that have fingers on them.

The point is, people SHOULD be able to decide "I'm not going to take my pants off in a room where people with sperms may be".

That's never going to be an unreasonable thing to say.

It is almost certainly acceptable to say "I do not care if sperms may pose a risk of getting up in me", which covers "presenting with vagina".

What is being said instead is "I don't want to take my pants off in a room where people with PENISES are".

At that point the question becomes "do you produce sperms?"

The problem is that this gives them no weapon that they can point at trans people in general, and at the atypical, so as to treat them like a DaNgEr.

In some ways I think it's part of the same machine that makes it so hard to get long term birth control: some social mechanism around the deep seated fear that if people are not tricked into becoming pregnant that not enough people would do it.

 

[Oleg]

You still haven't presented any solution for the problem of the female-presenting person with a penis risking their life by going into a men's room in redneck territory.

Let me know when penis presenting humans are in more danger in the male restrooms than humans with vaginas are with males in the restroom.

Males are far more dangerous to females than females are to males.
Are you really unable to understand that?
Tom

I don't have any good answer for male-presenting with vaginas. That's a problem either way.

I'd say it's because men don't care. We don't care. Women, do. Saying that women should be okay with men in their spaces is an entirely male point of view.

 

[Toni]

I truly believe that transwomen ARE women.

But you advocate for stripping them of their freedom to choose what bathroom to use? Do you, in general, feel that all women should not have this right? Under what circumstances do you feel strangers should be allowed to examine a woman's genitals and determine what rights she possesses based on their opinion of her body and whether or nor those genitals look "right" to them, whether or she consents?

What women have a right to speak, and which should be silenced?

No. I do not advocate for stripping rights of any women. I support the rights of all women to feel safe and to feel comfortable and to BE safe and comfortable.

I do not believe any one has the right to examine the genitals of any other person against their will.

I do not believe anyone has the right to expose their genitals to any other person without their permission.

Using the women’s locker room is NOT giving permission to see the penis of someone else.

If by whiskey...

I have zero idea what you're trying to say here, Loren.

 

[Toni]

You still haven't presented any solution for the problem of the female-presenting person with a penis risking their life by going into a men's room in redneck territory.

Let me know when penis presenting humans are in more danger in the male restrooms than humans with vaginas are with males in the restroom.

Males are far more dangerous to females than females are to males.
Are you really unable to understand that?
Tom

I don't have any good answer for male-presenting with vaginas. That's a problem either way.

What you're not catching is the clever conflation from "sperms" to "penis". One of these poses a risk of creating pregnancies. One of these things poses no more risk to any person than a person with hands that have fingers on them.

The point is, people SHOULD be able to decide "I'm not going to take my pants off in a room where people with sperms may be".

That's never going to be an unreasonable thing to say.

It is almost certainly acceptable to say "I do not care if sperms may pose a risk of getting up in me", which covers "presenting with vagina".

What is being said instead is "I don't want to take my pants off in a room where people with PENISES are".

At that point the question becomes "do you produce sperms?"

The problem is that this gives them no weapon that they can point at trans people in general, and at the atypical, so as to treat them like a DaNgEr.

In some ways I think it's part of the same machine that makes it so hard to get long term birth control: some social mechanism around the deep seated fear that if people are not tricked into becoming pregnant that not enough people would do it.

No. Men who have had vasectomies or prostatectomies are incapable of impregnating anyone, at least without a lot of medical intervention. Men who have had testicular cancer may not still produce sperm. A person does not have to produce ce sperm to be a threat or to be perceived as a threat. They can still be capable of rape. With or without a penis.

Pregnancy is not the primary concern. Rape and sexual assault is more of a concern. It’s certainly a concern from the standpoint of the flight/fight response that exists in all of us.

The argument here seems to be that trans women are real women and should be able to use the facilities they feel safe and comfortable using. I do not disagree with that at all.

I think that ALL women should be able to use the facilities they feel safe and comfortable using.

I think that all people should be able to use the facilities they feel safe and comfortable using so long as they do not cause distress or fear in other users. Skin color/race nor sexual orientation should never be considered a factor that excludes someone from using any facility because skin color/race or sexual orientation are not correlated with sexual assault of persons of a different sex or gender. Unfortunately being male IS correlated with increase in perpetrating sexual assaults.

Bullies/assailants should not be allowed in facilities with their victims.

I don’t know how women are supposed to evaluate whether or not a stranger in the dressing room is a threat to their safety if male appearing persons are in the facility. That has never been addressed except to the extent that I have insisted that handwaving that transwomen are not a risk is not any assurance. I also believe that trans women. are not a threat.

The question is how we are supposed to know that person is not a threat. I have never been in any situation where I should have ‘known better’ or ‘been more careful’ and yet I have been assaulted multiple times in situations where I thought I would be safe.

I just have no idea how women are supposed to instantaneously recognize that the person next to them is a trans woman and no threat.

 

[Politesse]

Also the guys who care about women as a group.

Ah, yes. The sensitive, feminist-minded guys of the right wing. Sure.

 

[Toni]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

 

[Politesse]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

If they're aware? Not very. Similarly to how they treat gay males. As men, but failed men, and not fully welcome. The bottom of the pecking order.

 

[Toni]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

If they're aware? Not very. Similarly to how they treat gay males. As men, but failed men, and not fully welcome. The bottom of the pecking order.

That must be very difficult. I am guessing that trans men are perceived as a different kind of threat —not a physical threat but a threat to heteronormative masculinity? Just a guess and my apologies if I got that wrong.

 

[Oleg]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

This is just the difference between men and women. Trans men are still women. They’re not a threat; in sport, restroom, or anywhere. Men don’t care. Except, perhaps, gay men annoyed by the cultist idea that gay means same-gender attraction rather than same-sex attraction.

 

[thebeave]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

This is just the difference between men and women. Trans men are still women. They’re not a threat; in sport, restroom, or anywhere. Men don’t care. Except, perhaps, gay men annoyed by the cultist idea that gay means same-gender attraction rather than same-sex attraction.

Agree. To be honest, I'm not sure if I've even encountered a trans man in a gym or bathroom. Perhaps I did and didn't know it. Regardless, if I did realize it somehow, I might raise an eyebrow or do a double take just as I probably would if I saw, say, a midget, or a celebrity or anyone else who is part of the 0.1% of society. I think the vast majority of men, if they were aware of a trans man in their presence would shrug and get on with their day. There seems to be this strawman notion that most men would go into ogre mode and make a scene or get violent, but I just don't see that. Not sure if I even have seen video clips on Twitter of men going nuts over seeing trans men in the gym, and that says something in this day and age when everyone has a video camera with them and is looking to be rich and famous with a viral video.

 

[thebeave]

You still haven't presented any solution for the problem of the female-presenting person with a penis risking their life by going into a men's room in redneck territory.

Let me know when penis presenting humans are in more danger in the male restrooms than humans with vaginas are with males in the restroom.

Males are far more dangerous to females than females are to males.
Are you really unable to understand that?
Tom

I don't have any good answer for male-presenting with vaginas. That's a problem either way.

What you're not catching is the clever conflation from "sperms" to "penis". One of these poses a risk of creating pregnancies. One of these things poses no more risk to any person than a person with hands that have fingers on them.

The point is, people SHOULD be able to decide "I'm not going to take my pants off in a room where people with sperms may be".

That's never going to be an unreasonable thing to say.

It is almost certainly acceptable to say "I do not care if sperms may pose a risk of getting up in me", which covers "presenting with vagina".

What is being said instead is "I don't want to take my pants off in a room where people with PENISES are".

At that point the question becomes "do you produce sperms?"

The problem is that this gives them no weapon that they can point at trans people in general, and at the atypical, so as to treat them like a DaNgEr.

In some ways I think it's part of the same machine that makes it so hard to get long term birth control: some social mechanism around the deep seated fear that if people are not tricked into becoming pregnant that not enough people would do it.

No. Men who have had vasectomies or prostatectomies are incapable of impregnating anyone, at least without a lot of medical intervention. Men who have had testicular cancer may not still produce sperm. A person does not have to produce ce sperm to be a threat or to be perceived as a threat. They can still be capable of rape. With or without a penis.

Pregnancy is not the primary concern. Rape and sexual assault is more of a concern. It’s certainly a concern from the standpoint of the flight/fight response that exists in all of us.

The argument here seems to be that trans women are real women and should be able to use the facilities they feel safe and comfortable using. I do not disagree with that at all.

I think that ALL women should be able to use the facilities they feel safe and comfortable using.

I think that all people should be able to use the facilities they feel safe and comfortable using so long as they do not cause distress or fear in other users. Skin color/race nor sexual orientation should never be considered a factor that excludes someone from using any facility because skin color/race or sexual orientation are not correlated with sexual assault of persons of a different sex or gender. Unfortunately being male IS correlated with increase in perpetrating sexual assaults.

Bullies/assailants should not be allowed in facilities with their victims.

I don’t know how women are supposed to evaluate whether or not a stranger in the dressing room is a threat to their safety if male appearing persons are in the facility. That has never been addressed except to the extent that I have insisted that handwaving that transwomen are not a risk is not any assurance. I also believe that trans women. are not a threat.

The question is how we are supposed to know that person is not a threat. I have never been in any situation where I should have ‘known better’ or ‘been more careful’ and yet I have been assaulted multiple times in situations where I thought I would be safe.

I just have no idea how women are supposed to instantaneously recognize that the person next to them is a trans woman and no threat.

There is a young swimmer named Riley Gaines who competed against trans woman swimmer Lia Thomas and has been making the media rounds telling her encounters with Lia. Its pretty interesting, and lines up well with what you have been saying. I doubt the mainstream media will ever give her the time of day, though. You should check out this interview she recently did:



It gets a bit weird and NSFW at the end, so be aware.

 

[Politesse]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

If they're aware? Not very. Similarly to how they treat gay males. As men, but failed men, and not fully welcome. The bottom of the pecking order.

That must be very difficult. I am guessing that trans men are perceived as a different kind of threat —not a physical threat but a threat to heteronormative masculinity? Just a guess and my apologies if I got that wrong.

Disgusting. They're treated as disgusting. Women aren't a threat to chauvinist men, they're repulsive, and men who fail to sufficiently perform masculinity get lumped in with their fate. Objects, not subjects. Such is the fate of actual trans men, but also any other men who are, on some level, queer.

But trans women who wish to transition are certainly perceived as a threat. They aren't passively failing to be men, they're actively rejecting the masculine. No one is supposed to want that. If people start wanting to openly reject men or masculinity, the entire patriarchal structure of society is at risk. Their perrsonal status, which they sacrificed everything for, is at risk. So they treat trans women as women, in effect, but the most frightening and dangerous of women. Secret-keepers. Liars. Manipulators of men. All of the old tropes of the witch get visited on trans women.

It's an ugly, ugly thing.

 

[Politesse]

most men would go into ogre mode and make a scene or get violent

It only takes one.

 

[TomC]

I think the vast majority of men, if they were aware of a trans man in their presence would shrug and get on with their day. There seems to be this strawman notion that most men would go into ogre mode and make a scene or get violent, but I just don't see that.

Here's the thing. What you're saying is true. But so is what Politesse said.

While the large majority of guys will be civil, not all of them will. Suppose someone goes into 10 public restrooms over the course of a week, with an average of 3 other occupants. Of the 30 guys, 29 behave the way you describe. 1 is an insecure assholish bully. The 29 don't impact you, the 1 can ruin your day.
Or even put you in the hospital.
Tom

 

[thebeave]

I think the vast majority of men, if they were aware of a trans man in their presence would shrug and get on with their day. There seems to be this strawman notion that most men would go into ogre mode and make a scene or get violent, but I just don't see that.

Here's the thing. What you're saying is true. But so is what Politesse said.

While the large majority of guys will be civil, not all of them will. Suppose someone goes into 10 public restrooms over the course of a week, with an average of 3 other occupants. Of the 30 guys, 29 behave the way you describe. 1 is an insecure assholish bully. The 29 don't impact you, the 1 can ruin your day.
Or even put you in the hospital.
Tom

Its certainly possible. Men can be the victims of hate whether they're trans, asian, ginger, black, white, gay, etc. Unfortunately, there will always be people who behave badly....for all eternity. That said, can you provide any real life examples of this happening to trans men (in recent times, anyway)? Eyewitness accounts or video recordings? The media would be all over it, but I just don't recall anything specific.

 

[TomC]

Its certainly possible. Men can be the victims of hate whether they're trans, asian, ginger, black, white, gay, etc. Unfortunately, there will always be people who behave badly....for all eternity.

But dipping into the men's room for a quick pee doesn't have the level of danger for gingers as for female men.
It's just an additional layer.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

If they're aware? Not very. Similarly to how they treat gay males. As men, but failed men, and not fully welcome. The bottom of the pecking order.

That must be very difficult. I am guessing that trans men are perceived as a different kind of threat —not a physical threat but a threat to heteronormative masculinity? Just a guess and my apologies if I got that wrong.

Disgusting. They're treated as disgusting. Women aren't a threat to chauvinist men, they're repulsive, and men who fail to sufficiently perform masculinity get lumped in with their fate. Objects, not subjects. Such is the fate of actual trans men, but also any other men who are, on some level, queer.

But trans women who wish to transition are certainly perceived as a threat. They aren't passively failing to be men, they're actively rejecting the masculine. No one is supposed to want that. If people start wanting to openly reject men or masculinity, the entire patriarchal structure of society is at risk. Their perrsonal status, which they sacrificed everything for, is at risk. So they treat trans women as women, in effect, but the most frightening and dangerous of women. Secret-keepers. Liars. Manipulators of men. All of the old tropes of the witch get visited on trans women.

It's an ugly, ugly thing.

I can see that.

I’ve wanted to apologize for some time for creating the perception that I don’t accept trans women or that I find the idea of sharing space with transwomen threatening or repulsive or negative. I don’t. That, for me, is not the issue and never has been.

It really is that women are trained from birth to be wary of being exposed to unfamiliar males and to view unfamiliar males, particularly in intimate spaces as a very serious threat. Which seems ironic since most violence towards girls and women comes from those they know. But it also reenforces that idea: If my uncle/cousin/brother/date tries to assault me, how safe am I around any male???? Plus the whole blame the victim mentality. The reality is that it doesn’t matter where you do or do not go or how you dress or your age: you can be attacked. And you will be blamed. There is a certain layer of hyper-vigilance that one never takes off or at least, you don’t if you’ve been assaulted. You can’t afford to.

 

[Bomb#20]

Also the guys who care about women as a group.

Ah, yes. The sensitive, feminist-minded guys of the right wing. Sure.

"The right wing" is a phrase which here means "the nonmembers of my ideology". Back in the middle ages, Christians commonly defined all nonmembers of their ideology as Satan-worshipers. They got over it. Maybe in a thousand years you will too.