Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[TomC]

Also the guys who care about women as a group.

Ah, yes. The sensitive, feminist-minded guys of the right wing. Sure.

"The right wing" is a phrase which here means "the nonmembers of my ideology". Back in the middle ages, Christians commonly defined all nonmembers of their ideology as Satan-worshipers. They got over it. Maybe in a thousand years you will too.

Thank you for responding to that for me.

All the responses that popped into my head would doubtless have gotten me in trouble with the authorities.
Again.
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

I can see that.

I’ve wanted to apologize for some time for creating the perception that I don’t accept trans women or that I find the idea of sharing space with transwomen threatening or repulsive or negative. I don’t. That, for me, is not the issue and never has been.

Toni, you have nothing to apologize for. You have never created that perception. You have been 100% consistent on this point. The people who formed that perception formed it entirely out of the baggage they brought to the discussion themselves.

 

[Toni]

I can see that.

I’ve wanted to apologize for some time for creating the perception that I don’t accept trans women or that I find the idea of sharing space with transwomen threatening or repulsive or negative. I don’t. That, for me, is not the issue and never has been.

Toni, you have nothing to apologize for. You have never created that perception. You have been 100% consistent on this point. The people who formed that perception formed it entirely out of the baggage they brought to the discussion themselves.

We all have baggage. Or experiences as some might prefer to call it. I've obviously laid a lot of my baggage out in full view.

Some of us have empathy as well.

It's good to be able to see things from another person's perspective. People are vulnerable in different ways. Just because I've never been harmed in a particular way doesn't mean that other people have not been. Or that I might not cause inadvertent harm by failing to listen to and consider their perspective as much as I wish others would consider mine.

People won't always end up agreeing with one another but we can learn to see and to respect other people's point of view.

 

[Politesse]

"The right wing" is a phrase which here means "the nonmembers of my ideology". Back in the middle ages, Christians commonly defined all nonmembers of their ideology as Satan-worshipers. They got over it. Maybe in a thousand years you will too.

In a thousand years, I'll be dead, and so will you. Most of our problems and disagreements will be extinct. A comforting thought, if you ask me.

But the idea of looking to a political faction that treats women as brood-mares - who in this past year alone sucessfully manipulated the Supreme Court in to a ruling that in many states will force women to give birth against their will - in order to "defend women from men" will still sound ridiculous.

 

[Toni]

"The right wing" is a phrase which here means "the nonmembers of my ideology". Back in the middle ages, Christians commonly defined all nonmembers of their ideology as Satan-worshipers. They got over it. Maybe in a thousand years you will too.

In a thousand years, I'll be dead, and so will you. Most of our problems and disagreements will be extinct. A comforting thought, if you ask me.

But the idea of looking to a political faction that treats women as brood-mares - who in this past year alone sucessfully manipulated the Supreme Court in to a ruling that in many states will force women to give birth against their will - in order to "defend women from men" will still sound ridiculous.

I'd say repugnant but potato/potahto

 

[TomC]

But the idea of looking to a political faction that treats women as brood-mares -

Also the guys who care about women as a group.

Ah, yes. The sensitive, feminist-minded guys of the right wing. Sure.

So, caring about the opinions of women makes me "the right wing"?

I'm the person you quoted and referred to in your post.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

But the idea of looking to a political faction that treats women as brood-mares -

Also the guys who care about women as a group.

Ah, yes. The sensitive, feminist-minded guys of the right wing. Sure.

So, caring about the opinions of women makes me "the right wing"?

I'm the person you quoted and referred to in your post.
Tom

No, holding and advocating for right wing opinions make you right wing. Pretending to care about female opinions for the sake of an anti-trans argument is just part of the new right wing aesthetic, which will pass whenever it is no longer faddish.

 

[TomC]

No, holding and advocating for right wing opinions make you right wing.

You mean like "Straight ticket Democrat voter"? Is that how you determined that I'm "holding and advocating right wing opinions"?

What I'm holding and advocating in this thread is nearly identical to what @Toni is holding and advocating. Do you think she is a right wingnut?

Pretending to care about female opinions for the sake of an anti-trans argument is just part of the new right wing aesthetic, which will pass whenever it is no longer faddish.

Which part of caring about women's opinions makes me "anti-trans"?

Please be specific, not just deliver a vague ad hominem.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still haven't presented any solution for the problem of the female-presenting person with a penis risking their life by going into a men's room in redneck territory.

Let me know when penis presenting humans are in more danger in the male restrooms than humans with vaginas are with males in the restroom.

Males are far more dangerous to females than females are to males.
Are you really unable to understand that?
Tom

I don't have any good answer for male-presenting with vaginas. That's a problem either way.

What you're not catching is the clever conflation from "sperms" to "penis". One of these poses a risk of creating pregnancies. One of these things poses no more risk to any person than a person with hands that have fingers on them.

The point is, people SHOULD be able to decide "I'm not going to take my pants off in a room where people with sperms may be".

That's never going to be an unreasonable thing to say.

It is almost certainly acceptable to say "I do not care if sperms may pose a risk of getting up in me", which covers "presenting with vagina".

I was talking about the threat of attack, not rape. I think the only solution there is an any bathroom so it's not obvious that their anatomy doesn't match their presentation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I truly believe that transwomen ARE women.

But you advocate for stripping them of their freedom to choose what bathroom to use? Do you, in general, feel that all women should not have this right? Under what circumstances do you feel strangers should be allowed to examine a woman's genitals and determine what rights she possesses based on their opinion of her body and whether or nor those genitals look "right" to them, whether or she consents?

What women have a right to speak, and which should be silenced?

No. I do not advocate for stripping rights of any women. I support the rights of all women to feel safe and to feel comfortable and to BE safe and comfortable.

I do not believe any one has the right to examine the genitals of any other person against their will.

I do not believe anyone has the right to expose their genitals to any other person without their permission.

Using the women’s locker room is NOT giving permission to see the penis of someone else.

If by whiskey...

I have zero idea what you're trying to say here, Loren.

Google hit #1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_S._Sweat#The_"whiskey_speech"

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

In redneck country, not welcoming. That's why I said male-presenting with vaginas is problematic.

 

[Toni]

I truly believe that transwomen ARE women.

But you advocate for stripping them of their freedom to choose what bathroom to use? Do you, in general, feel that all women should not have this right? Under what circumstances do you feel strangers should be allowed to examine a woman's genitals and determine what rights she possesses based on their opinion of her body and whether or nor those genitals look "right" to them, whether or she consents?

What women have a right to speak, and which should be silenced?

No. I do not advocate for stripping rights of any women. I support the rights of all women to feel safe and to feel comfortable and to BE safe and comfortable.

I do not believe any one has the right to examine the genitals of any other person against their will.

I do not believe anyone has the right to expose their genitals to any other person without their permission.

Using the women’s locker room is NOT giving permission to see the penis of someone else.

If by whiskey...

I have zero idea what you're trying to say here, Loren.

Google hit #1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_S._Sweat#The_"whiskey_speech"

Loren knows how to post a link! Who knew???

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm asking because I honestly do not know: How welcoming are cis-men towards trans men? In the work place? Socially? In the locker room? Wherever?

This is just the difference between men and women. Trans men are still women. They’re not a threat; in sport, restroom, or anywhere. Men don’t care. Except, perhaps, gay men annoyed by the cultist idea that gay means same-gender attraction rather than same-sex attraction.

Agree. To be honest, I'm not sure if I've even encountered a trans man in a gym or bathroom. Perhaps I did and didn't know it. Regardless, if I did realize it somehow, I might raise an eyebrow or do a double take just as I probably would if I saw, say, a midget, or a celebrity or anyone else who is part of the 0.1% of society. I think the vast majority of men, if they were aware of a trans man in their presence would shrug and get on with their day. There seems to be this strawman notion that most men would go into ogre mode and make a scene or get violent, but I just don't see that. Not sure if I even have seen video clips on Twitter of men going nuts over seeing trans men in the gym, and that says something in this day and age when everyone has a video camera with them and is looking to be rich and famous with a viral video.

Note your location: CA. That's the reaction I would expect in a blue area. The problem comes in deep red areas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I truly believe that transwomen ARE women.

But you advocate for stripping them of their freedom to choose what bathroom to use? Do you, in general, feel that all women should not have this right? Under what circumstances do you feel strangers should be allowed to examine a woman's genitals and determine what rights she possesses based on their opinion of her body and whether or nor those genitals look "right" to them, whether or she consents?

What women have a right to speak, and which should be silenced?

No. I do not advocate for stripping rights of any women. I support the rights of all women to feel safe and to feel comfortable and to BE safe and comfortable.

I do not believe any one has the right to examine the genitals of any other person against their will.

I do not believe anyone has the right to expose their genitals to any other person without their permission.

Using the women’s locker room is NOT giving permission to see the penis of someone else.

If by whiskey...

I have zero idea what you're trying to say here, Loren.

Google hit #1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_S._Sweat#The_"whiskey_speech"

Loren knows how to post a link! Who knew???

But do you understand what I was saying? (I thought that speech was better known, I didn't realize my comment wasn't obvious.)

 

[Toni]

I truly believe that transwomen ARE women.

But you advocate for stripping them of their freedom to choose what bathroom to use? Do you, in general, feel that all women should not have this right? Under what circumstances do you feel strangers should be allowed to examine a woman's genitals and determine what rights she possesses based on their opinion of her body and whether or nor those genitals look "right" to them, whether or she consents?

What women have a right to speak, and which should be silenced?

No. I do not advocate for stripping rights of any women. I support the rights of all women to feel safe and to feel comfortable and to BE safe and comfortable.

I do not believe any one has the right to examine the genitals of any other person against their will.

I do not believe anyone has the right to expose their genitals to any other person without their permission.

Using the women’s locker room is NOT giving permission to see the penis of someone else.

If by whiskey...

I have zero idea what you're trying to say here, Loren.

Google hit #1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_S._Sweat#The_"whiskey_speech"

Loren knows how to post a link! Who knew???

But do you understand what I was saying? (I thought that speech was better known, I didn't realize my comment wasn't obvious.)

I truly believe that transwomen ARE women.

But you advocate for stripping them of their freedom to choose what bathroom to use? Do you, in general, feel that all women should not have this right? Under what circumstances do you feel strangers should be allowed to examine a woman's genitals and determine what rights she possesses based on their opinion of her body and whether or nor those genitals look "right" to them, whether or she consents?

What women have a right to speak, and which should be silenced?

No. I do not advocate for stripping rights of any women. I support the rights of all women to feel safe and to feel comfortable and to BE safe and comfortable.

I do not believe any one has the right to examine the genitals of any other person against their will.

I do not believe anyone has the right to expose their genitals to any other person without their permission.

Using the women’s locker room is NOT giving permission to see the penis of someone else.

If by whiskey...

I have zero idea what you're trying to say here, Loren.

Google hit #1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_S._Sweat#The_"whiskey_speech"

Loren knows how to post a link! Who knew???

But do you understand what I was saying? (I thought that speech was better known, I didn't realize my comment wasn't obvious.)

Actually, Loren, to be honest, I didn't read the entire article you linked because I'm heading off to bed. No, I had not heard of that speech.

I'll try to give it a look see tomorrow.

 

[Jarhyn]

You still haven't presented any solution for the problem of the female-presenting person with a penis risking their life by going into a men's room in redneck territory.

Let me know when penis presenting humans are in more danger in the male restrooms than humans with vaginas are with males in the restroom.

Males are far more dangerous to females than females are to males.
Are you really unable to understand that?
Tom

I don't have any good answer for male-presenting with vaginas. That's a problem either way.

What you're not catching is the clever conflation from "sperms" to "penis". One of these poses a risk of creating pregnancies. One of these things poses no more risk to any person than a person with hands that have fingers on them.

The point is, people SHOULD be able to decide "I'm not going to take my pants off in a room where people with sperms may be".

That's never going to be an unreasonable thing to say.

It is almost certainly acceptable to say "I do not care if sperms may pose a risk of getting up in me", which covers "presenting with vagina".

I was talking about the threat of attack, not rape. I think the only solution there is an any bathroom so it's not obvious that their anatomy doesn't match their presentation.

Well, if bathrooms are set up so one denies entry to those who ejaculate sperms, this makes the "sperms" bathroom also the "any" bathroom.

 

[TomC]

Well, if bathrooms are set up so one denies entry to those who ejaculate sperms, this makes the "sperms" bathroom also the "any" bathroom.

You keep going on about sperm as though that's the issue. It's not!

If the damage and trauma resulting from a man sexually assaulting a woman could be erased with a "morning after" pill, this issue wouldn't be a big deal.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Well, if bathrooms are set up so one denies entry to those who ejaculate sperms, this makes the "sperms" bathroom also the "any" bathroom.

You keep going on about sperm as though that's the issue. It's not!

If the damage and trauma resulting from a man sexually assaulting a woman could be erased with a "morning after" pill, this issue wouldn't be a big deal.
Tom

My point is that there is no boundary separating the awfulness of violation by a penis and violation by a thumb or fingers, when there is no sperm involved.

It IS about sperm, at that point. Sperm is the defining difference here, and whatever diseases whoever has on whatever organ they use to penetrate.

The sperm is what puts the existential difference into the penis.

 

[TomC]

My point is that there is no boundary separating the awfulness of violation by a penis and violation by a thumb or fingers, when there is no sperm involved.

What most of us are talking about is "the awfulness" of being violated.
For everyone.
All the time.

Women are the main targets. And you'd know that if you didn't keep dismissing their opinions, concerns, and issues.

...and the horse you rode in on
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

"The right wing" is a phrase which here means "the nonmembers of my ideology". Back in the middle ages, Christians commonly defined all nonmembers of their ideology as Satan-worshipers. They got over it. Maybe in a thousand years you will too.

In a thousand years, I'll be dead, and so will you. Most of our problems and disagreements will be extinct. A comforting thought, if you ask me.

Your rate of progress toward the Enlightenment being too slow to get there during your lifetime is a pity but that's no reason not to compare it to similarly glacial improvement rates.

But the idea of looking to a political faction that treats women as brood-mares - who in this past year alone sucessfully manipulated the Supreme Court in to a ruling that in many states will force women to give birth against their will - in order to "defend women from men" will still sound ridiculous.

If you insist one equals three and someone points out that that's idiotic, the circumstance that Satan worshipers are generally agreed that one does not equal three has no magical power to make your critic be "looking to" Satan worshipers in order to defend three from oneness.