Daunte Wright shot with Taser. And by "taser," I mean, "Gun."

[Politesse]

She shot an unarmed man in the chest. That's murder. Why should anyone care what she says she "thought" she was doing? Do you believe every excuse that every murderer comes up with to justify their crime, post facto? Thoughts and prayers don't bring back the dead. If you aren't competent to wield a firearm, but you carry one anyway, you're responsible for everything that follows. No one else is going to wipe your ass for you and tell you everything's okay after you've killed someone with your little toy.

Unless you're a cop in America.

Or Alex Baldwin.

It's Alec, but yes. Enough money, and no one cares who you kill.

 

[Toni]

She shot an unarmed man in the chest. That's murder. Why should anyone care what she says she "thought" she was doing? Do you believe every excuse that every murderer comes up with to justify their crime, post facto? Thoughts and prayers don't bring back the dead. If you aren't competent to wield a firearm, but you carry one anyway, you're responsible for everything that follows. No one else is going to wipe your ass for you and tell you everything's okay after you've killed someone with your little toy.

Unless you're a cop in America.

Or Alex Baldwin.

Baldwin believed and had reason to believe that the gun he was handed was a prop and not a functioning, loaded firearm.

I personally do not see how the film could continue or how Baldwin could ever set foot on that set.

 

[TomC]

Baldwin believed and had reason to believe that the gun he was handed was a prop and not a functioning, loaded firearm.

Potter believed, and had reason to believe, that Wright was a violent criminal with illegal weapons in his possession. That her life, and the lives of the law abiding folks around her, were in danger.

Lethal danger.

Wright's warrant was for an illegal weapons charge. He dove for his car, the obvious place to keep a firearm. Potter shot him, as was reasonable. Wright chose being shot. Better if she'd pulled the taser, for sure. But that's not what happened. Wright put Potter in a split second decision situation and she messed up, a tiny bit.

Wright chose being shot by a cop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Darwin Award. Whatever.
Wright picked nearly everything that resulted in his death. There were many choices made and he made nearly all of them.
Tom

 

[thebeave]

Baldwin believed and had reason to believe that the gun he was handed was a prop and not a functioning, loaded firearm.

Potter believed, and had reason to believe, that Wright was a violent criminal with illegal weapons in his possession. That her life, and the lives of the law abiding folks around her, were in danger.

Lethal danger.

Wright's warrant was for an illegal weapons charge. He dove for his car, the obvious place to keep a firearm. Potter shot him, as was reasonable. Wright chose being shot. Better if she'd pulled the taser, for sure. But that's not what happened. Wright put Potter in a split second decision situation and she messed up, a tiny bit.

Wright chose being shot by a cop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Darwin Award. Whatever.
Wright picked nearly everything that resulted in his death. There were many choices made and he made nearly all of them.
Tom

IIRC, she intended to taze him, but got her taser and gun mixed up and shot him instead. IMO, it was a momentary brainfart that we all inexplicably do once in a while, but unlike ours, her brainfart caused someone his life. I think she was adequately trained and experienced to know what the proper procedure was in the situation like hers. I think it could happen to anyone, really.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

She shot an unarmed man in the chest. That's murder. Why should anyone care what she says she "thought" she was doing? Do you believe every excuse that every murderer comes up with to justify their crime, post facto? Thoughts and prayers don't bring back the dead. If you aren't competent to wield a firearm, but you carry one anyway, you're responsible for everything that follows. No one else is going to wipe your ass for you and tell you everything's okay after you've killed someone with your little toy.

Unless you're a cop in America.

Murder requires intent, she had no intent to kill him. Thus not murder. Killing through reckless behavior without intent is manslaughter, not murder.

 

[Politesse]

She shot an unarmed man in the chest. That's murder. Why should anyone care what she says she "thought" she was doing? Do you believe every excuse that every murderer comes up with to justify their crime, post facto? Thoughts and prayers don't bring back the dead. If you aren't competent to wield a firearm, but you carry one anyway, you're responsible for everything that follows. No one else is going to wipe your ass for you and tell you everything's okay after you've killed someone with your little toy.

Unless you're a cop in America.

Murder requires intent, she had no intent to kill him. Thus not murder. Killing through reckless behavior without intent is manslaughter, not murder.

Last I looked, murder in the US is not defined by intent to kill, but by malice aforethought. And it's more than just a legal question anyway. A system in which police kill with impunity while victims are jailed for backtalk is no democratic society. Police can and must be held to a higher standard in how they use coercive force.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Baldwin believed and had reason to believe that the gun he was handed was a prop and not a functioning, loaded firearm.

Potter believed, and had reason to believe, that Wright was a violent criminal with illegal weapons in his possession. That her life, and the lives of the law abiding folks around her, were in danger.

Lethal danger.

Wright's warrant was for an illegal weapons charge. He dove for his car, the obvious place to keep a firearm. Potter shot him, as was reasonable. Wright chose being shot. Better if she'd pulled the taser, for sure. But that's not what happened. Wright put Potter in a split second decision situation and she messed up, a tiny bit.

Wright chose being shot by a cop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Darwin Award. Whatever.
Wright picked nearly everything that resulted in his death. There were many choices made and he made nearly all of them.
Tom

IIRC, she intended to taze him, but got her taser and gun mixed up and shot him instead. IMO, it was a momentary brainfart that we all inexplicably do once in a while, but unlike ours, her brainfart caused someone his life. I think she was adequately trained and experienced to know what the proper procedure was in the situation like hers. I think it could happen to anyone, really.

It seems many police departments are doing a poor job of training cops to carry both taser and gun. If they practice mostly with one of them then the automatic reaction will be to use that one even when the other is intended.

 

[Derec]

She shot an unarmed man in the chest. That's murder.

Not necessarily. This was an accidental shooting. Also, she had to act in the fraction of a second based on the situation Daunte himself effected by trying to flee.

Why should anyone care what she says she "thought" she was doing?

Mens rea.

Do you believe every excuse that every murderer comes up with to justify their crime, post facto?

No, but the circumstances of the events and the suspect's state of mind and intent are all very important.

Thoughts and prayers don't bring back the dead.

True. Note also that had St. Daunte not tried to flee, none of this would have happened.

If you aren't competent to wield a firearm, but you carry one anyway, you're responsible for everything that follows.

It's not necessarily the case that she was incompetent. Let's say the chance for a competent LEO to pull and use the wrong weapon is 1 in 100,000,000. Pretty low chances. But given that there are millions of cases of use of taser each year in the US, we would expect a case every so many years.
And even if she was incompetent, that would not make it a murder.

Unless you're a cop in America.

Except that she was sent to prison.
Another thing: cops have a job where they have to engage with potentially dangerous suspects. A regular civilian is not expected to try to arrest somebody on an outstanding warrant. Cops are.

 

[Derec]

I think her sentence was too lenient. ]

I don't think so. Now Mohammed Noor's sentence was way too lenient given that a) he fully intended to shoot and kill Justine Damond and b) she was an innocent civilian, not a dangerous suspect like Daunte Wright.

Which argues against murder, although, as I wrote just now, the fact that she was an armed police officer meant she had an absolute duty and responsibility to know what she had in her hand before deploying it as a weapon.

These things happen in a fraction of a second. And in real time, mistakes can and do happen.

And they took too long to render aide--not nearly as long as in the George Floyd murder but too long.

Now the sentence in the George Floyd case was way too severe. And the riots that followed that case were ridiculous, esp. since most of those who destroyed stuff were never prosecuted.

 

[Derec]

Last I looked, murder in the US is not defined by intent to kill, but by malice aforethought.

Murder usually requires intent. "Malice aforethought" afaik does not occur in MN statutes. And why do you think Kim Potter had "malice aforethought"?

And it's more than just a legal question anyway.

Murder is a legal concept though.

A system in which police kill with impunity

They obviously don't since Potter was sent to prison for two years and Chauvin for 25 years.

while victims are jailed for backtalk

Who is jailed for "backtalk"?

is no democratic society.

Do you even know what "democratic" means?

Police can and must be held to a higher standard in how they use coercive force.

Their use of force is different than that of a civilian. A civilian may for example defend themselves or others, but police are expected to engage with suspects actively. And again, had Daunte not tried to rabbit, none of this would have happened.

 

[Toni]

Baldwin believed and had reason to believe that the gun he was handed was a prop and not a functioning, loaded firearm.

Potter believed, and had reason to believe, that Wright was a violent criminal with illegal weapons in his possession. That her life, and the lives of the law abiding folks around her, were in danger.

Lethal danger.

Wright's warrant was for an illegal weapons charge. He dove for his car, the obvious place to keep a firearm. Potter shot him, as was reasonable. Wright chose being shot. Better if she'd pulled the taser, for sure. But that's not what happened. Wright put Potter in a split second decision situation and she messed up, a tiny bit.

Wright chose being shot by a cop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Darwin Award. Whatever.
Wright picked nearly everything that resulted in his death. There were many choices made and he made nearly all of them.
Tom

Potter knew that Wright had a warrant out for a gross misdemeanor weapons charge. Period.

Potter claimed that she did NOT intend to shoot Wright but intended to fire her non-lethal taser. That was negligence. It was also somewhat negligent to pull Wright over on a very minor motor vehicle violation as the police department was told not to pull over motorists for such issues as expired tags, air fresheners hanging from rear view mirrors, etc. She allowed her trainee to pull Wright over in violation of that order--negligence.

Noor's shooting of Damond was a case of Noor intending to shoot but his motive was not malice but incompetence/panic. He should not have been a police officer. Of course, neither should have Derek Chauvin.

 

[TomC]

Potter knew that Wright had a warrant out for a gross misdemeanor weapons charge. Period.

That is not all she knew and you know it.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Last I looked, murder in the US is not defined by intent to kill, but by malice aforethought.

Murder usually requires intent. "Malice aforethought" afaik does not occur in MN statutes. And why do you think Kim Potter had "malice aforethought"?

And it's more than just a legal question anyway.

Murder is a legal concept though.

A system in which police kill with impunity

They obviously don't since Potter was sent to prison for two years and Chauvin for 25 years.

while victims are jailed for backtalk

Who is jailed for "backtalk"?

is no democratic society.

Do you even know what "democratic" means?

Police can and must be held to a higher standard in how they use coercive force.

Their use of force is different than that of a civilian. A civilian may for example defend themselves or others, but police are expected to engage with suspects actively. And again, had Daunte not tried to rabbit, none of this would have happened.

The police are civilians. They have no special right to exercise violence on behalf of the state, any more than you or I. Nor should they. If you want to put us under martial law, you're going to need to show your cards and involve the actual military. Until then, police aren't soldiers, and even soldiers are not allowed to kill American citizens with impunity.

 

[blastula]

Last I looked, murder in the US is not defined by intent to kill, but by malice aforethought.

 

[Toni]

Potter knew that Wright had a warrant out for a gross misdemeanor weapons charge. Period.

That is not all she knew and you know it.
Tom

Excuse me? Please enlighten me. AFAIK, cops making a traffic stop know only limited amounts about the person/vehicle they are pulling over. In fact, the car wasn't even Wright's, as far as I remember, so the lapsed automobile registration---which was being overlooked because in those days of the pandemic it was extremely difficult to get your registration renewed--was not even on him. AFAIK, she did not know it was Wright in the vehicle. I could, of course, be wrong, or not remember something as well as I think I do.

If you have other information, I'd love to hear it. Preferably with links.

 

[TomC]

If you have other information, I'd love to hear it. Preferably with links.

She knew that while being handcuffed he made a break for the obvious place to keep an illegal weapon.

That's one thing that I see as crucial. Waiting to see if he's going to attempt to shoot her in the face wouldn't be smart.
Tom

 

[Toni]

If you have other information, I'd love to hear it. Preferably with links.

She knew that while being handcuffed he made a break for the obvious place to keep an illegal weapon.

That's one thing that I see as crucial. Waiting to see if he's going to attempt to shoot her in the face wouldn't be smart.
Tom

Ah, we were talking about two different things: I was talking about what she knew about any charges pending against Wright.

 

[TomC]

Ah, we were talking about two different things: I was talking about what she knew about any charges pending against Wright.

I'm talking about what influenced her actions in the moment.

Honestly, Wright's death looks almost entirely like "suicide by cop" to me.
Tom

 

[blastula]

Potter believed, and had reason to believe, that Wright was a violent criminal with illegal weapons in his possession. That her life, and the lives of the law abiding folks around her, were in danger.

You're still misstating the facts of the case. She tried to tase him to stop him from fleeing, not because she thought he had a gun or that she was in danger.

 

[TomC]

Potter believed, and had reason to believe, that Wright was a violent criminal with illegal weapons in his possession. That her life, and the lives of the law abiding folks around her, were in danger.

You're still misstating the facts of the case. She tried to tase him to stop him from fleeing, not because she thought he had a gun or that she was in danger.

I don't find your mind reading particularly impressive.
What little she knew about Wright gave her extremely good reason to believe him violent and dangerous. He chose behavior that was reckless, to put it mildly. He had a history of it.
Tom