Henrietta Lacks’s family reaches settlement in extracted cell lawsuit

[Politesse]

Nobody had any reason to think those cancerous cells were worth anything.

This claim is just is absurd. This is 1951 we're talking about, not the Medieval Era. The value of the HeLa line was recognized almost immediately, and was well known by the time Thermo-Fisher came into the picture.

 

[bilby]

This is 1951 we're talking about, not the Medieval Era.

I thought everyone knew by now that everything that happened in the past, happened at the same time.

 

[ZiprHead]

Tom, out of curiosity: do you believe that "it was technically legal at the time" is a robust ethical argument?

No.

Neither do I think "but it was legal when I did it" is ever a robust ethical argument. I don't consider the government a particularly good source of morality or ethical code.
Tom

So you think taking something from someone without their consent or knowledge and then making hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars off of it is cool.

 

[TomC]

Simple usually means wrong.

 

[Emily Lake]

Given the times, I feel pretty confident that Mrs. Lacks’ status as a black person and as a women would have made it even less likely that they would have considered it necessary to obtain consent.

Do you think Ms Lacks was different in that regard than anyone else at the time? I don't.

I'd guess that if a wealthy male titan of industry had cancer surgery at the time, it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to ask permission for a tissue sample of diseased tissue.
Tom

Maybe not... but I would bet that if a wealthy white male had cancer surgery and the cells taken from him ended up bringing about a major medical advance, and provided massive profits to several pharmaceutical companies that used them... he would have been cut in on those profits. At a minimum, the medical needs of his immediate descendants would likely have been covered.

 

[Emily Lake]

Nobody had any reason to think those cancerous cells were worth anything.

This claim is just is absurd. This is 1951 we're talking about, not the Medieval Era. The value of the HeLa line was recognized almost immediately, and was well known by the time Thermo-Fisher came into the picture.

IIRC, the researchers realized the value of the cells, and the possibilities they represented, while Lacks was still alive. It wasn't like they sat on a shelf for five years until someone noticed they were still kicking around.

 

[TomC]

At a minimum, the medical needs of his immediate descendants would likely have been covered.

Not that there's any way to say, at this time.
But I would be willing to bet that for at least 20 years after 1951, that wouldn't have happened.

Just knowing that a treatment was based on the cancerous cells of a poor black woman would have been the end of it.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why in the fuck is it even necessary to have to say this?! This has been explained over and over and over... here... at this web board. The McDonalds' case was lampooned in an effort to help drive the "need" for litigation reform. The elderly woman messed up... in a parked car. She shouldn't have suffered third degree burns and required skin grafts! And asked only for medical compensation!!!

Said a dozen times here, and Derec still has to trot out the misinformation.

The coffee was too hot--she wouldn't have been hurt as badly had it been of the right temperature. She still would have been hurt, though--this wasn't a case of their actions making her action dangerous.

I do believe they bear some responsibility, but I think she bears the majority of the responsibility--and I don't think one should get to collect in a case where you bear most of the wrong.

She asked for medical bill coverage.

That doesn't address my point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't believe in the very idea of IP. I believe in the relative merit in attempting to do more out-of-distribution work, and so cast aspersions on copying for THAT reason, the reason of profiteering against the economy of scale with low quality knockoffs... But that is very different from accepting that anyone can own *facts of nature*.

I cast judgement against China not for making knockoffs, but for making cheap knockoffs.

The problem with knock-offs is that one company goes to a lot of work designing something and the knock-off company just copies that.

Which goes to show that just maybe it's not worth that much if it's so easy to reproduce.

You're completely ignoring the point--the original has R&D costs that the knock-off does not. With media we recognize this by means of copyright, but we have no equivalent for a product that requires R&D but doesn't involve a novel innovation that qualifies for patent protection. Consider one I recently became aware of:

Ulanzi Travel Tripod Tested (Compared to Peak Design)

The Ulanzi Travel Tripod is a lightweight carbon tripod with impressive specifications. I tested it and compared it to a similar Peak Design tripod.

shuttermuse.com

When the Peak Design tripod came out there was nothing at all similar to it--now there are multiple slightly inferior clones for appreciably less money. That's far too similar to be chance--they clearly copied Peak Design's design work. Is that fair to them??

 

[laughing dog]

- you are literally arguing that the very effort of having to ask permission to use the cells would have dissuaded them from asking for something they thought were valuable enough to use without asking.

In 1951, yeppers.
Nobody had any reason to think those cancerous cells were worth anything.

Give me a reason to believe differently.
Tom

Taking the cells indicates they believe that taking them was worth that effort.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why in the fuck is it even necessary to have to say this?! This has been explained over and over and over... here... at this web board. The McDonalds' case was lampooned in an effort to help drive the "need" for litigation reform. The elderly woman messed up... in a parked car. She shouldn't have suffered third degree burns and required skin grafts! And asked only for medical compensation!!!

Said a dozen times here, and Derec still has to trot out the misinformation.

The coffee was too hot--she wouldn't have been hurt as badly had it been of the right temperature. She still would have been hurt, though--this wasn't a case of their actions making her action dangerous.

I do believe they bear some responsibility, but I think she bears the majority of the responsibility--and I don't think one should get to collect in a case where you bear most of the wrong.

She asked for medical bill coverage.

That doesn't address my point.

It addressed the flaw of it due to your apathy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Given the times, I feel pretty confident that Mrs. Lacks’ status as a black person and as a women would have made it even less likely that they would have considered it necessary to obtain consent.

Do you think Ms Lacks was different in that regard than anyone else at the time? I don't.

I'd guess that if a wealthy male titan of industry had cancer surgery at the time, it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to ask permission for a tissue sample of diseased tissue.
Tom

I think that she was poor, black and female and had cancer. I think she had very few rights compared with a wealthy white male.

Which doesn't address the point at all. We are saying they wouldn't have sought consent from the wealthy white male cancer patient, either.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Tom, out of curiosity: do you believe that "it was technically legal at the time" is a robust ethical argument?

We aren't trying to address right and wrong, but rather the reality that nobody would have been asked. It's not racism!

 

[laughing dog]

Given the times, I feel pretty confident that Mrs. Lacks’ status as a black person and as a women would have made it even less likely that they would have considered it necessary to obtain consent.

Do you think Ms Lacks was different in that regard than anyone else at the time? I don't.

I'd guess that if a wealthy male titan of industry had cancer surgery at the time, it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to ask permission for a tissue sample of diseased tissue.
Tom

I think that she was poor, black and female and had cancer. I think she had very few rights compared with a wealthy white male.

Which doesn't address the point at all. We are saying they wouldn't have sought consent from the wealthy white male cancer patient, either.

Something we will never know. Just like we will never know if they had used cells ftom a wealthy white man without his permission, if his family would have tried to get payment.

The point is that these were voluntary settlements which suggests that these institutions thought they had compelling reasons to settle. No one forced them to pay a dime.

 

[TomC]

We aren't trying to address right and wrong, but rather the reality that nobody would have been asked. It's not racism!

When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Given the times, I feel pretty confident that Mrs. Lacks’ status as a black person and as a women would have made it even less likely that they would have considered it necessary to obtain consent.

Do you think Ms Lacks was different in that regard than anyone else at the time? I don't.

I'd guess that if a wealthy male titan of industry had cancer surgery at the time, it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to ask permission for a tissue sample of diseased tissue.
Tom

I think that she was poor, black and female and had cancer. I think she had very few rights compared with a wealthy white male.

Do you think any cancer patients were asked for consent concerning samples of diseased tissue in the early 50s?
Tom

I’ve stated repeatedly that I don’t think it was standard to as permission to use tissues taken as part of diagnosis and treatment. It is now. It always should have been but it wasn’t. As a poor, black woman with little education, I believe that Mrs. Lacks’ opinions were of even less consideration than a wealthy white male’s.

You're contradicting yourself here.

If it wasn't standard to ask permission then the fact that she was poor, black and female is irrelevant.

 

[laughing dog]

Given the times, I feel pretty confident that Mrs. Lacks’ status as a black person and as a women would have made it even less likely that they would have considered it necessary to obtain consent.

Do you think Ms Lacks was different in that regard than anyone else at the time? I don't.

I'd guess that if a wealthy male titan of industry had cancer surgery at the time, it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to ask permission for a tissue sample of diseased tissue.
Tom

I think that she was poor, black and female and had cancer. I think she had very few rights compared with a wealthy white male.

Do you think any cancer patients were asked for consent concerning samples of diseased tissue in the early 50s?
Tom

I’ve stated repeatedly that I don’t think it was standard to as permission to use tissues taken as part of diagnosis and treatment. It is now. It always should have been but it wasn’t. As a poor, black woman with little education, I believe that Mrs. Lacks’ opinions were of even less consideration than a wealthy white male’s.

You're contradicting yourself here.

If it wasn't standard to ask permission then the fact that she was poor, black and female is irrelevant.

If you had bothered to read Toni’s response with careful consideration, you’d have seen the phrase “I believe that Mrs Lacks’ opinions were of even less consideration than a wealthy white man’s” and not drawn your conclusion.

 

[TomC]

If you had bothered to read Toni’s response with careful consideration, you’d have seen the phrase “I believe that Mrs Lacks’ opinions were of even less consideration than a wealthy white man’s” and not drawn your conclusion.

His conclusion was that nobody's opinions on the subject mattered in 1951.

Got a reason to believe differently? Or is this just another episode of Wokester clinging to the culture of victimhood and entitlement? That's what it looks like to me.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

If you had bothered to read Toni’s response with careful consideration, you’d have seen the phrase “I believe that Mrs Lacks’ opinions were of even less consideration than a wealthy white man’s” and not drawn your conclusion.

His conclusion was that nobody's opinions on the subject mattered in 1951.

His opinion is irrelevant because he is making a logical conclusion to Toni’s argument.

Got a reason to believe differently? Or is this just another episode of Wokester clinging to the culture of victimhood and entitlement? That's what it looks like to me.
Tom

I see no reason to answer your questions when you ignore questions posed to you.

 

[Toni]

This is a nice article in Nature Magzine that outlines the carious issues in the Henrietta Lacks case. Whether or not those cell lines were ever monetarily profitable was only one issue. In fact, Henrietta Lacks was ide fugues by name and her genome published without any attempt to gain consent from Lacks herself or any of her survivors. It was an extreme violation of her privacy and that of her family. For decades, researchers used cell lines and published information about them without acknowledging that the cell lines originated in a black woman who was uninformed and uncompensated and unrecognized for her contribution.

Henrietta Lacks: science must right a historical wrong

In Henrietta Lacks’s centennial year, researchers must do more to ensure that human cells cannot be taken without consent.

www.nature.com