Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Gospel]

When people lose their homes, livelihoods, and sense of stability, they often turn to whichever group offers them hope, protection, or a promise of change, regardless of the methods that group may employ. Simply looking at the USA and it's dirty hand in multiple countries abroad myself and many American's aren't abandoning ship in disgust. But rather we double down by showing up at the polls and lighting fireworks on the 4th. It's undeniable that Hamas has been involved in terrible acts of violence, but I believe many in Gaza don't necessarily support that. They may back Hamas in the hope of gaining some semblance of security or to voice their frustration with the status quo.

Who else could they rely on besides Hamas, considering that the PLO and PA faced constant toilet paper challenges, while Zionist groups, driven more by the ambition to "re-establish" a state than by religious ties to the Holy Land, continued to expand into their territories?

What we're seeing is desperation judging by the borders that are currently drawn.

But OMG I support Hamas for saying this.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is a political problem that requires a political solution. The militants and Israel can not win this militarily. They can kill each other, one side for justice and another side for vengeance. But it is just accomplishing death, not progress by any meaning of the word.

That should be fucking obvious by now to them. Palestinians have no one to demand anything and Israel is a fractured government being run by radicals that'd rather cleanse these areas that grant them any power (or clean water).

 

[Gospel]

No. There were Jews coming from Europe to escape the holocaust. And big influx of Russian Jews in the 90's. Before WW2, there were Jews, but hardly in overwhelming numbers. After WW2, surving Jews in Europe still faced pogroms and murder, and those who survived left hostile parts of Europe, many to Israel

Yup, around that time the British, with divine theatrics, waved a mere piece of toilet paper in the air from which divine lights from heaven shined upon it and—voilà!—suddenly Palestine became the state of Israel.

 

[Elixir]

They can kill each other

I wish they’d just do that and get it over with, without getting everyone else involved.

 

[Gospel]

After Arabs, alongside the British, challenged the Ottoman Empire, they were presumably promised sovereignty over their lands. Said promise was later disregarded by words on toilet paper and boom Palestine Israel conflict.

 

[Gospel]

In essence, the British initiated the conflict, and much of today's ongoing back-and-forth can be traced back to their toilet paper.

 

[TomC]

In essence, the British initiated the conflict, and much of today's ongoing back-and-forth can be traced back to their toilet paper.

By "toilet paper", are you referring to the Balfour Declaration?
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

link

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, speaking with mayors of towns near Gaza, said, “What Hamas will experience will be difficult and terrible."

"We are just getting started,” he said. “We are going to change the Middle East.”

That is Hollywood bullshit, not a foreign policy.

Hamas’ military wing, al-Qassam Brigades, threatened to execute the hostages if more civilians were killed in Gaza. In an audio message aired on the Al Jazeera news network, Qassam spokesman Abu Obeida said that the executions would be recorded.

Jebus!

Of course...

Even before the war, Hamas-led Gaza struggled under a years-long blockade. It gets most of its electricity from Israel and its groundwater sources have been ruined by pollution and saltwater. More than 90 percent of the water in Gaza’s sole aquifer is no longer potable.

Israeli Governing policies on Palestine are getting Israelis slaughtered.

 

[Gospel]

In essence, the British initiated the conflict, and much of today's ongoing back-and-forth can be traced back to their toilet paper.

By "toilet paper", are you referring to the Balfour Declaration?
Tom

I'm critiquing their overarching policies and motives in general, though certainly, the Balfour Declaration deserves an honorable mention.

 

[Gospel]

I refer to the British Palestine policies of those times as 'toilet paper' because, in my view, they were only supremely good for wiping the human ass.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

And so much for "Only I can fix it" Trump and Jared Kushner who were going to bring peace to the Middle East.

 

[SLD]

So a conservative friend posted on Facebook that it was time for Israel to retake Gaza and destroy its enemies there.

I get it. They’re mad. I understand the feeling but short of genocide, is there another solution? Genocide might work. There’d be no Palestinians and voila, no more Palestinian problem to solve! Easy! If the rest of the world just sat back and said, “well, life sucks,” then we’d have peace.

Nannh. I don’t think that’s likely to be accepted.

so what is the solution? The 1960’s UN resolutions? Won’t happen.

Is it even possible for a Gaza Strip to ever be peaceful? It would take an economic miracle of a huge magnitude. It would require a complete change of heart of tens of thousands living there. Just to accept their lot and try to build a society that can function. I doubt it.

 

[Thomas II]

 

[TomC]

I refer to the British Palestine policies of those times as 'toilet paper' because, in my view, they were only supremely good for wiping the human ass.

What "times"?
Do you realize that Europeans were migrating to Palestine in the 19th century?
By "Europeans" I'm referring to people who had lived in Europe(and the Euro-Christian world) for most of 2000 years.
Longer than the Jews lived in Israel, before the Diaspora probably.

I just don't consider ancient scripture to be a deed to property. Palestine hasn't been Jewish territory since the Diaspora.

WWII victors, colonialist Allies, creating a country doesn't make it happen. And there's plenty of blame to spread around. The Islamic neighbors could have responded differently than they did in 1948. Then again in the 60s and 70s.

Plenty of blame to spread around.

Unfortunately, it's an egg that can't be unscrambled.
Tom

ETA ~Israel was like Liberia for Jewish people. A bunch of WASPs got together and carved out a place to send "those people" to.~

 

[Derec]

Nothing in your evidence directly condones any type of violence. Resistance need not mean violence.

Don't even start with your trademark brand of equivocation.
"Resistance" in the lexicon of pro-Palestinian (and anti-Israel) activists is an euphemism for Palestinian terrorist groups. It very much means violence! And brutal violence against civilians that we have witnessed on Saturday as well at the hands of Hamas (which means "Islamic Resistance Movement" btw).
It is no coincidence that DSA called for this rally on the same day as their friends from Hamas launched a series of terrorist attack where they slaughtered and kidnapped hundreds of civilians, including small children and elderly. The latter group included Holocaust survivors.

In the meanwhile, that disgusting rally happened yesterday. The slogans included things like "from the River to the Sea" which is a call for a destruction of Israel and "by all means necessary" which condones terrorism and murder of civilians.

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators on Sunday in New York celebrated Hamas’s massive deadly terror attack against Israel, as supporters of the Jewish state held rallies to mourn and express outrage over the slaughter.
Several hundred pro-Palestinian demonstrators rallied in Times Square, waving Palestinian flags and chanting “Resistance is justified,” “Globalize the intifada,” and “Smash the settler Zionist state.”
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” they chanted.
[...]
One man held up a picture of an Israeli hostage on his phone and waved it at the Israeli crowd. Another was seen brandishing an image of a swastika. Some taunted the Israelis while tearing up and stomping on an Israeli flag, or danced with a Palestinian flag.
[...]
The protest was also supported by the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) political party. The New York branch of the party advertised the event and expressed “solidarity with the Palestinian people and their right to resist.” In response to criticism, the national chapter of DSA doubled down, saying the Hamas attack was “not unprovoked,” adding, “Take to the streets to join a protest.”

Perhaps they do condone violence in resistance. But your post is long on inference and short in evidence.

It is more than "perhaps". DSA creeps do condone terrorist violence.
My inference was sound based on the use of language by these groups. Unlike your naive equivocations. Unlike you ignoring the timing of the rally.

 

[Derec]

Yeah, like the US funding of the IRA.

That was wrong, since IRA are a terrorist organization. However, Hamas are several orders of magnitude more bloodthirsty and genocidal than IRA.

But ultimately the conflict would continue even without funds from other countries. Oppressed people never stop fighting, they just get less and less effective as their funding dries up.

Palestinians are oppressed by their leadership and regimes like the one in Tehran that want to fight against Israel to the last Palestinian.
Palestinians had many chances at peace. They chose to fight against Israel every time. When Israel left Gaza in 2005, they could have lived alongside Israel in peace and prosperity. Instead, they chose terrorism and thereby almost 20 years of misery. That is not Israel's fault.

One is reminded of Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.
Palestinians keep choosing death. They keep choosing the curse.

In any case, I will gladly take the option where Palestinian terrorism gets less effective over time. If they don't want peace, and they have shown for decades that they do not, that is the 2nd best option.

 

[Gospel]

Unfortunately, it's an egg that can't be unscrambled.

The only scrambling I see is your attempt to avoid what I actually said.

What "times"?

It's evident, isn't it? The British involvement in the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine can be traced back to 1917 with the Balfour Declaration (you just brought up). Alternatively, one could point to the UN resolution of 1947 (which was an attempt to clean up the British stink) but also failed because again, Europeans are complete (and still are) morons when it comes to the Arab world. Regardless of which document one references, they both played roles in the ensuing conflict that has persisted for about a century. I'm not interested in skirting around the issue. It's clear that British actions played a pivotal role in the genesis of this conflict. If it makes you or anyone feel squirmy then kindly add me to your ignore list. I'd appreciate that more than the typical obfuscating gibberish often posted.

Next question, "So what would you do Gospel?" fuck ass nothing. There is absolutely nothing that can be done at this point.

 

[Bomb#20]

by the imposition of an entirely artificial state on their land ever since it happened.

Why is it "their" land? Because the robbers they succeeded to it from were the 37th nation that stole it rather than the 38th?

Because indigenous people have a Right to call the place where they and their ancestors have lived for thousands of years "their" homeland.

All people have a right to call any place they please "their" homeland. It's called "freedom of speech". I asked why it is their land, not whether they have a right to call it that.

If you mean it is their land by right because it's the place where they and their ancestors have lived for thousands of years, then that sounds like you're answering "Yes." to my question -- it's because the robbers they're successors to were the 37th nation that stole it rather than the 38th. If that sounds to you like a knock-down moral endorsement of the justice of their claim, feel free to explain your peculiar theory of justice.

[And, incidentally, what makes the Arabs "indigenous"? Their ancestors haven't lived there for thousands of years. Their ancestors came from Arabia 1400 years ago and seized it from the Byzantines, i.e., the Romans, whose ancestors seized it from the Jews, whose ancestors seized it from the Canaanites, whose ancestors seized it from the [many seizures skipped], whose ancestors seized it from the descendants of the first H. sapiens sapiens to live there, who seized it from the Neanderthals. "Indigenous" is a word that means whoever the speaker wants it to mean.]

At least they do in modern societies. Some folks that still hold to the 'might makes right' way of thinking believe if you can take land from people unable to fight you off, you get to keep it

Isn't that exactly your justification for claiming it's the Arabs' land? That they took it from Byzantines unable to fight them off so they get to keep it?

Or do you mean it wasn't they who took it from the Byzantines -- that was their ancestors in 637 AD? The 1948 Palestinians got it honestly, from their parents? Well, the Israelis didn't take Israel from people unable to fight them off either. That was their great-grandparents in 1948. The current crop of Israelis got it honestly, from their parents. Now, feel free to explain why the magical dividing line between irrelevant ancient history and "historically justified" land claims is conveniently whenever you need it to be to "justify" whichever side of whoever's conflict you take sides in. All rights to land are squatters' rights except maybe the bit the Dutch reclaimed from the sea.

The closest Israelis and Palestinians came to peace was when the Oslo Accords were first being implemented.

The Accords failed because Zionists <snip>

And Zionists have a mirror-image narrative about how the Accords failed because Palestinians.

Israeli Zionists wanted to keep right on colonizing all of the West Bank and Gaza, and were willing to kill their fellow Israelis to achieve that end.

And Palestinian irredentists want to keep right on colonizing all of Israel and are willing to kill their fellow Palestinians to achieve that end. The question is not whose side is ruled by villains; the question is what causes the sides' respective villains to be in charge.

"Palestinians are left with terrorism or defeat as their only options" is an artifact of Gandhi-tactics not being part of their cultural toolkit. Culture is destiny.

Question: Where can Israel find the Palestinian Gandhi? Answer: Exactly where they put him, in administrative detention.

The Palestinians have plenty of Gandhis. The Israelis lock them up, the same way the British locked up Gandhi himself.

And being locked up didn't stop Gandhi from kicking the British out. Of course the Palestinians have Gandhis; finding a Gandhi isn't the problem. The problem is he won't get the street traction Gandhi got, even when he was in jail.

 

[TomC]

The only scrambling I see is your attempt to avoid what I actually said.

Nah.
I asked you what you meant.
Your response was

It's evident, isn't it?

That is so American!

Tom

ETA ~What was the point to EuroChristian society creating the State of Israel?
I'm confident that I know. But I'm asking you.~

 

[Derec]

The part in bold was made up by you, and wasn't said or implied by the Democratic Socialists of America NYC chapter.

It was certainly implied by DSA supporting this rally that comes a day after all this. Also, in the lexicon of Israel haters, "resistance" explicitly means Palestinian terrorism, i.e. murder and other atrocities against Israeli civilians.

Dishonest reporting isn't helpful in this conflict, any more than is excessive violence in retaliation.

Nothing dishonest about accurately stating what the DSA position is.

Your approach here is part of the problem,

Your approach here, to pretend there is some sort of equivalence here is the problem. It is both intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible.

and your indulging in it without taking on any personal risk from the violence it might provoke is an act of despicable cowardice.

Islamist terrorists have hit the US before (and in the case of 9/11 to much celebration by the Palestinians). The illegitimate regime in Tehran calls for "death to America" as much as "death to Israel".