Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

I think the problem is that you post complex and nuanced opinions. They don't fit the simplistic narrative of "Palestinians are victims of Zionist oppression", therefore you mostly get strawman arguments in response.
Tom

Naw, we just ain't into genocide like Dr. Z. <----- Strawmen are fun!

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

I think the problem is that you post complex and nuanced opinions. They don't fit the simplistic narrative of "Palestinians are victims of Zionist oppression", therefore you mostly get strawman arguments in response.
Tom

Naw, we just ain't into genocide like Dr. Z. <----- Strawmen are fun!

That's a bizarre statement. Considering that Israels invasion is to stop genocide. But whatever. Maybe Jewish lives don’t matter to you?

 

[Bomb#20]

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

I think the problem is that you post complex and nuanced opinions. They don't fit the simplistic narrative of "Palestinians are victims of Zionist oppression", therefore you mostly get strawman arguments in response.
Tom

Naw, we just ain't into genocide like Dr. Z. <----- Strawmen are fun!

That's a bizarre statement. Considering that Israels invasion is to stop genocide. But whatever. Maybe Jewish lives don’t matter to you?

JH was being sarcastic. I'm pretty sure he intended to express the opinion that Tom's accusation about strawmen was itself a strawman.

 

[TomC]

JH was being sarcastic. I'm pretty sure he intended to express the opinion that Tom's accusation about strawmen was itself a strawman.

Nevertheless, we are in a thread with posts like

Your applaue and approval of the displacement of millions of people, the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians from bombs and bullets, and the resulting malnutrition and disease( which hits the very young and the very old the worst) makes your comments about "giving a shit about the Palestrinian people" epically ironic.

I've kinda stopped bothering to reply to the strawman arguments myself.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

According to their Charter (linked earlier in this thread) their goal is the end of the Zionist state and the creation of a single Palestinian State. The Charter says their fight is not with the Jews, it is with the Zionists. Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens in the Palestinian State, and immigrants could apply for legal resident status.

What is the difference between a Zionist and a Jew who wishes to live in Israel? And remember it is Hamas'opinion that really counts, not yours nor mine.
Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace.

You can take that with a very large grain of salt. The ideals expressed in the Charter don't necessarily conform with the opinions of Hamas' leadership, much less the rank-and-file militants.

Since Hamas's leadership would have endorsed that charter before publishing I think we can take it very seriously. No salt required.

Hamas are like Bin Laden - they are deadly seriously about what they say and many find that frightening. In the west we are so used to the feckless nature of our government's, politicians and other institutions etc. that it is unnerving to meet those who mean what they say and say what they mean.

You're contradicting yourself. Hamas claims its goal is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace. If Hamas's goal really is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace then your statement "Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace." can't be correct. Contrariwise, if Hamas's goal is not a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace, then your statement "they are deadly seriously about what they say" can't be correct.

To all appearances, Hamas is simply lying through its teeth about what its goal is. It says its goal is a Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens. To all appearances, its actual goal is a Hamas-ruled Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians are viciously discriminated against, or ethnically cleansed, or murdered.

An error was made somewhere, possibly by me, that caused other people's words to appear to be mine. I am not the author of the paragraph that begins with the comparison of Hamas to Bin Laden.

Also, I have repeatedly said that IMO Hamas has too many terrorists and assholes in its ranks to live up to the ideals expressed in its Charter.

I do believe Hamas wants a single Palestinian State, and I do believe they want to bring about the utter defeat of Zionism. I do not believe that Hamas leaders simply want to kill Jews (although some of its fighters might), or that they think Jews are their only enemies. I believe they kill, abuse, and kidnap unarmed civilian Israelis because they have embraced terrorism as a means to an end, and the end they desire is to be powerful, influential, and to get their way in everything.

 

[laughing dog]

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

I think the problem is that you post complex and nuanced opinions. They don't fit the simplistic narrative of "Palestinians are victims of Zionist oppression", therefore you mostly get strawman arguments in response.
Tom

Naw, we just ain't into genocide like Dr. Z. <----- Strawmen are fun!

That's a bizarre statement. Considering that Israels invasion is to stop genocide. But whatever. Maybe Jewish lives don’t matter to you?

Regardless of Hamas’s long run goals, Hamas did not have the physical capacity for genocide. So once again, your description of the situation is inaccurate. It is also pretty clear that Jewish lives matter much more to JH than Gazan lives matter to you.

 

[laughing dog]

JH was being sarcastic. I'm pretty sure he intended to express the opinion that Tom's accusation about strawmen was itself a strawman.

Nevertheless, we are in a thread with posts like

Your applaue and approval of the displacement of millions of people, the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians from bombs and bullets, and the resulting malnutrition and disease( which hits the very young and the very old the worst) makes your comments about "giving a shit about the Palestrinian people" epically ironic.

I've kinda stopped bothering to reply to the strawman arguments myself.
Tom

Your apparent inability to identify a straw man argument explains your promulagation and promotion of them.

 

[Tigers!]

An error was made somewhere, possibly by me, that caused other people's words to appear to be mine. I am not the author of the paragraph that begins with the comparison of Hamas to Bin Laden.

That was me a lot of posts ago.

Also, I have repeatedly said that IMO Hamas has too many terrorists and assholes in its ranks to live up to the ideals expressed in its Charter.

I do believe Hamas wants a single Palestinian State, and I do believe they want to bring about the utter defeat of Zionism. I do not believe that Hamas leaders simply want to kill Jews (although some of its fighters might), or that they think Jews are their only enemies. I believe they kill, abuse, and kidnap unarmed civilian Israelis because they have embraced terrorism as a means to an end, and the end they desire is to be powerful, influential, and to get their way in everything.

I believe. too, that Hamas want a single Palestinian state. It is the composition of said state that is the question. It would be Palestinian but I fear with no Jews at least and perhaps no non-Palestinians

 

[Arctish]

Tigers!, you said:

Most of the inhabitants at the time of the Balfor Déclaration could not claim that heritage

That is incorrect. Most of the inhabitants of Palestine at the time of the Balfour Declaration were descendants of the ancient Canaanites. The DNA evidence is compelling

From your link:

"Retracted article​

See the retraction notice"​

Thanks for the head's up.

There have been many other genetic studies which support the current consensus that the Palestinian people are descendants of the ancient Canaanites. Do you want links to them?

Posting a follow up to this^.

It appears the linked article, The Origin of Palestinians and their genetic relatedness with other Mediterranean populations, was not retracted due to any flaws in the study or conclusions. The objections to the article were political in nature.

The study's principal author, Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, is an accomplished immunologist with several published scientific articles. He may have been wrong about a thing or two, but from what I can find about the controversy, his data and the conclusions he drew from them have not been shown to be incorrect.

 

[Arctish]

An error was made somewhere, possibly by me, that caused other people's words to appear to be mine. I am not the author of the paragraph that begins with the comparison of Hamas to Bin Laden.

That was me a lot of posts ago.

Also, I have repeatedly said that IMO Hamas has too many terrorists and assholes in its ranks to live up to the ideals expressed in its Charter.

I do believe Hamas wants a single Palestinian State, and I do believe they want to bring about the utter defeat of Zionism. I do not believe that Hamas leaders simply want to kill Jews (although some of its fighters might), or that they think Jews are their only enemies. I believe they kill, abuse, and kidnap unarmed civilian Israelis because they have embraced terrorism as a means to an end, and the end they desire is to be powerful, influential, and to get their way in everything.

I believe. too, that Hamas want a single Palestinian state. It is the composition of said state that is the question. It would be Palestinian but I fear with no Jews at least and perhaps no non-Palestinians

Well, since no one posting in this thread appears to want Hamas to win, or believes Hamas could possibly win, can we move on to discussing the kind of State the PA wants, and the kind of State the Zionist hardliners Netanyahu leads want?

 

[Tigers!]

An error was made somewhere, possibly by me, that caused other people's words to appear to be mine. I am not the author of the paragraph that begins with the comparison of Hamas to Bin Laden.

That was me a lot of posts ago.

Also, I have repeatedly said that IMO Hamas has too many terrorists and assholes in its ranks to live up to the ideals expressed in its Charter.

I do believe Hamas wants a single Palestinian State, and I do believe they want to bring about the utter defeat of Zionism. I do not believe that Hamas leaders simply want to kill Jews (although some of its fighters might), or that they think Jews are their only enemies. I believe they kill, abuse, and kidnap unarmed civilian Israelis because they have embraced terrorism as a means to an end, and the end they desire is to be powerful, influential, and to get their way in everything.

I believe. too, that Hamas want a single Palestinian state. It is the composition of said state that is the question. It would be Palestinian but I fear with no Jews at least and perhaps no non-Palestinians

Well, since no one posting in this thread appears to want Hamas to win, or believes Hamas could possibly win, can we move on to discussing the kind of State the PA wants, and the kind of State the Zionist hardliners Netanyahu leads want?

By all means. Lead on MacDuff.

 

[Derec]

By all means. Lead on MacDuff.

Isn't it "lay on, McDuff"?

 

[Bomb#20]

According to their Charter (linked earlier in this thread) their goal is the end of the Zionist state and the creation of a single Palestinian State. The Charter says their fight is not with the Jews, it is with the Zionists. Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens in the Palestinian State, and immigrants could apply for legal resident status.

What is the difference between a Zionist and a Jew who wishes to live in Israel? And remember it is Hamas'opinion that really counts, not yours nor mine.
Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace.

You can take that with a very large grain of salt. The ideals expressed in the Charter don't necessarily conform with the opinions of Hamas' leadership, much less the rank-and-file militants.

Since Hamas's leadership would have endorsed that charter before publishing I think we can take it very seriously. No salt required.

Hamas are like Bin Laden - they are deadly seriously about what they say and many find that frightening. In the west we are so used to the feckless nature of our government's, politicians and other institutions etc. that it is unnerving to meet those who mean what they say and say what they mean.

You're contradicting yourself. Hamas claims its goal is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace. If Hamas's goal really is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace then your statement "Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace." can't be correct. Contrariwise, if Hamas's goal is not a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace, then your statement "they are deadly seriously about what they say" can't be correct.

To all appearances, Hamas is simply lying through its teeth about what its goal is. It says its goal is a Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens. To all appearances, its actual goal is a Hamas-ruled Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians are viciously discriminated against, or ethnically cleansed, or murdered.

An error was made somewhere, possibly by me, that caused other people's words to appear to be mine. I am not the author of the paragraph that begins with the comparison of Hamas to Bin Laden.

I rechecked the quotations and they're all correct; you just miscounted the nesting levels. I wasn't arguing with you; I was arguing with Tigers! and agreeing with you about the grain of salt.

 

[Arctish]

An error was made somewhere, possibly by me, that caused other people's words to appear to be mine. I am not the author of the paragraph that begins with the comparison of Hamas to Bin Laden.

That was me a lot of posts ago.

Also, I have repeatedly said that IMO Hamas has too many terrorists and assholes in its ranks to live up to the ideals expressed in its Charter.

I do believe Hamas wants a single Palestinian State, and I do believe they want to bring about the utter defeat of Zionism. I do not believe that Hamas leaders simply want to kill Jews (although some of its fighters might), or that they think Jews are their only enemies. I believe they kill, abuse, and kidnap unarmed civilian Israelis because they have embraced terrorism as a means to an end, and the end they desire is to be powerful, influential, and to get their way in everything.

I believe. too, that Hamas want a single Palestinian state. It is the composition of said state that is the question. It would be Palestinian but I fear with no Jews at least and perhaps no non-Palestinians

Well, since no one posting in this thread appears to want Hamas to win, or believes Hamas could possibly win, can we move on to discussing the kind of State the PA wants, and the kind of State the Zionist hardliners Netanyahu leads want?

By all means. Lead on MacDuff.

It starts with a Two State solution based on the 1967 borders.

I don't think it's likely to happen, but calling for Israel to withdraw its people from the Occupied Territories and recognize the Palestinian State is the obvious starting point for a negotiated deal.

My personal opinion is that Israel and Palestine are heading towards a political shotgun marriage in a messy One State solution.

 

[Arctish]

According to their Charter (linked earlier in this thread) their goal is the end of the Zionist state and the creation of a single Palestinian State. The Charter says their fight is not with the Jews, it is with the Zionists. Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens in the Palestinian State, and immigrants could apply for legal resident status.

What is the difference between a Zionist and a Jew who wishes to live in Israel? And remember it is Hamas'opinion that really counts, not yours nor mine.
Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace.

You can take that with a very large grain of salt. The ideals expressed in the Charter don't necessarily conform with the opinions of Hamas' leadership, much less the rank-and-file militants.

Since Hamas's leadership would have endorsed that charter before publishing I think we can take it very seriously. No salt required.

Hamas are like Bin Laden - they are deadly seriously about what they say and many find that frightening. In the west we are so used to the feckless nature of our government's, politicians and other institutions etc. that it is unnerving to meet those who mean what they say and say what they mean.

You're contradicting yourself. Hamas claims its goal is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace. If Hamas's goal really is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace then your statement "Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace." can't be correct. Contrariwise, if Hamas's goal is not a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace, then your statement "they are deadly seriously about what they say" can't be correct.

To all appearances, Hamas is simply lying through its teeth about what its goal is. It says its goal is a Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens. To all appearances, its actual goal is a Hamas-ruled Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians are viciously discriminated against, or ethnically cleansed, or murdered.

An error was made somewhere, possibly by me, that caused other people's words to appear to be mine. I am not the author of the paragraph that begins with the comparison of Hamas to Bin Laden.

I rechecked the quotations and they're all correct; you just miscounted the nesting levels. I wasn't arguing with you; I was arguing with Tigers! and agreeing with you about the grain of salt.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

I think the problem is that you post complex and nuanced opinions. They don't fit the simplistic narrative of "Palestinians are victims of Zionist oppression", therefore you mostly get strawman arguments in response.
Tom

Naw, we just ain't into genocide like Dr. Z. <----- Strawmen are fun!

That's a bizarre statement. Considering that Israels invasion is to stop genocide. But whatever. Maybe Jewish lives don’t matter to you?

Regardless of Hamas’s long run goals, Hamas did not have the physical capacity for genocide. So once again, your description of the situation is inaccurate. It is also pretty clear that Jewish lives matter much more to JH than Gazan lives matter to you.

Again, where the fuck is your moral compass?

So what you are implying is that Israel should be fine with rockets raining down on them forever and occassionally have their citizens kidnappad? Just because there's no way their chant "from the river to the sea" can be made a reality with the resources at Hamas disposal?

Why would anyone keep tolerate being treated like the Israelis have so far been treated by Hamas (and the other terror groups)?

How do you think Israel should respond? It looks to me like Israel already have tried everything short of destroying Hsmas. Which they’re doing now. Good riddance

 

[laughing dog]

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

I think the problem is that you post complex and nuanced opinions. They don't fit the simplistic narrative of "Palestinians are victims of Zionist oppression", therefore you mostly get strawman arguments in response.
Tom

Naw, we just ain't into genocide like Dr. Z. <----- Strawmen are fun!

That's a bizarre statement. Considering that Israels invasion is to stop genocide. But whatever. Maybe Jewish lives don’t matter to you?

Regardless of Hamas’s long run goals, Hamas did not have the physical capacity for genocide. So once again, your description of the situation is inaccurate. It is also pretty clear that Jewish lives matter much more to JH than Gazan lives matter to you.

Again, where the fuck is your moral compass?

That one broke every irony meter around.

So what you are implying is that Israel should be fine with rockets raining down on them forever and occassionally have their citizens kidnappad? Just because there's no way their chant "from the river to the sea" can be made a reality with the resources at Hamas disposal?

That is an inane straw man.

Why would anyone keep tolerate being treated like the Israelis have so far been treated by Hamas (and the other terror groups)?

Another inane straw man.

How do you think Israel should respond? It looks to me like Israel already have tried everything short of destroying Hsmas. Which they’re doing now. Good riddance

“Everything”? Is it possible for you to avoid your usual rhetorical bullshit? Razing Gaza while killing civilians at a rate that makes Hamas green with envy is insane. Noting that does not imply support of Hamas or that terrorism directed towards Israelis to a rational mind.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Stopping the incursions and aggression of Israeli settlers against Al-Aqsa Mosque"--except there is no such aggression. The site is holy to both religions. It's simply Jews visiting a Jewish holy site.

Israeli settlers storm Al-Aqsa Mosque complex on fifth day of Sukkot

Israeli settlers storm complex in groups and attempt to perform ‘Talmudic rituals’, according to a Waqf official.

www.aljazeera.com

Dozens of Israeli settlers have forced their way into the flashpoint Al-Aqsa Mosque complex in occupied East Jerusalem to mark the fifth day of Sukkot, according to the Islamic Waqf Department.

Since Sunday, thousands of settlers have been carrying out provocative tours of the mosque complex following calls by ultranationalist Jewish groups.

And where is the supposed wrongdoing? Jewish people are going to a Jewish holy site. They are behaving respectably. You realize "Talmudic rituals" is simply another way of saying "praying"?

The provocation is their very existence--the same issue that has applied all along. Jews being equal to Muslims is intolerable to the Muslims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Palestinian self-rule does not mean Hamas is free to operate in Gaza. That is a ridiculous excluded middle fallacy.

Palestinian self rule means Palestinian police go after terrorists and other criminals in the State of Palestine. It means The Palestinian government can seek assistance from foreign governments if it so desires.

And seven days are nowhere near a week!

(The Palestinians have chosen and continue to choose the path of violence--10/7 polls higher than Hamas. Thus Palestinian self rule means the war continues.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you honestly think that Israel would allow PA police officers to cross Israel from the West Bank to Gaza at a moment's notice to respond to reports of Hamas activities? Do you honestly think Israel would allow the PA to acquire the high tech surveillance equipment, armored vehicles, body armor, weapons, and ammunition it would need to take down Hamas, and to train up its police officers to the level of Delta Force commandos?

Get serious.

The PA is never going to become that well armed and effective while Israel has any say in the matter.

You need to get serious about understanding.

The PA police officers do nothing to stop terrorism from the West Bank. In fact, there's a decent amount of overlap between police and terrorists. Remember when Israel armed the PA police? Israel promptly was facing the very weapons they had provided.