3 brave officers disarm 17 year old girl by shooting her to death

[Mageth]

More bullshit, I see. I did not say that the cop should "run away". And the cop's "fucking job" was to handle the situation so that no one gets killed or seriously injured, not to shoot a clearly disturbed girl. He failed at his job this time.

As I said, as a first action, he could have (and IMO should have) backed off and waited for backup before trying to control the clearly disturbed girl. Trying to subdue her by himself greatly increased the risk to both her and himself.

Is that really so fucking hard for you to understand?

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to these sorts of people, any impediment whatsoever to cops indiscriminately murdering anyone without any consequence whatsoever is imposing handicaps on the cops and trying to destroy the moral fabric of america.

No, you are just trying to impose ridiculous handicaps on cops, not trying to destroy the moral fabric of America.

"Don't shoot clearly disturbed people" is a ridiculous handicap?

Back up how far? The more he backs up, the harder it is to hit the target and the harder it is to orient himself to shoot the target instead of a nearby bystander near the line of fire.

She was a disturbed 17-year-old girl with a family, not a "target"! Jesus Fucking Christ! Why the supposed need to shoot her? Again, look for ways not to shoot her!

And there wasn't a nearby bystander. When he initially approached her, talked to her, and she apparently indicated she had a weapon (gun or knife), instead of trying to subdue/control her by himself, back off to the other side of the lobby, get a row or two of chairs between her and him, get on the radio, and get more officers ASAP. They were coming already; he wouldn't have had to wait long. Talk calmly to the girl from across the room. Then the initial physical confrontation, if necessary, instead of him trying to control the girl by himself, would be him and one or more other officers. Get her cuffed, get her help.

Instead, he chose to escalate the situation by himself by trying to control/subdue her by himself.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A much higher resolution video than the one from the news (Warning! This version of the video actually shows her getting shot, so if you don't want to see that, stop it at around 11:08):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGIS1Knpvs0

Based on the news reporting this is what seems to have happened:

1. She indicates she has a gun.
2. Officer Derr attempts to restrain her. He eventually tackles her to the ground. At this point he realizes that while she doesn't have a gun, she does have a large butchers knife.
3. Officer Derr gets off her, putting a little distance between them, and bringing his weapon to bear.
4. Other officers arrive.
5. She rushes Derr, one of the officers fired his stun gun (claims it is ineffective), the other two open fire.

I think the key to this tragedy is point 3. Officer Derr made a serious mistake releasing her when he realized she had a close range weapon. He was in a position that would make it incredibly difficult for her to use it on him, and his retreat only put him in more danger. In other words, even if he felt he had to maintain his distance, the distance he chose was far too short. He was in much more danger now than he was on top of her. Then, when she rushed Derr, Officer Duffie used his stun gun. Now here I call bullshit on the report. Her rushing, Duffie stun gunning her, and the other officers opening fire all took place in the span of about 1 second. There is no way in hell the cops could tell the stun gun "didn't work". For all intents and purposes, they opened fire with the stun gun and their sidearms at the same time. This goes back to Officer Derr's mistake. I don't fault the officers who fired their guns in that moment, but if Derr had either stayed on top of her, or retreated to a further distance, this whole thing could have been avoided. If he had retreated farther, they wouldn't have only had a split second to react to her charge (or she might not have tried to charge).

Overall my conclusion remains unchanged from the less clear video: Officer Derr really screwed up his handling of this, and that lead directly to the situation where they were forced to open fire.

I strongly suspect he backed off because he wasn't in a position to ensure he didn't get stabbed.

He seemed to have been in the position to cuff her. And then he leaps off like a cat. He drew his gun twice. A guy that large, on top of her... he had the control. Officer buddies get in and all ends well. He beyond fucked up.

Furthermore, seeing this report I strongly suspect this is a suicide by cop. She set up a situation where the cops would have little choice.

Police aren't required by law to light up suicidal people, especially when there are options still on the table. He was too busy putting his gun away when he could have cuffed her before throwing her to the floor.

You justify this death, and that is extremely sad.

 

[laughing dog]

to these sorts of people, any impediment whatsoever to cops indiscriminately murdering anyone without any consequence whatsoever is imposing handicaps on the cops and trying to destroy the moral fabric of america.

No, you are just trying to impose ridiculous handicaps on cops, not trying to destroy the moral fabric of America.

Please explain how expecting the first reaction police officers inside of a police station when faced with someone armed with knife is not to shoot to kill is imposing a ridiculous handicap on the police.

 

[ApostateAbe]

More bullshit, I see. I did not say that the cop should "run away". And the cop's "fucking job" was to handle the situation so that no one gets killed or seriously injured, not to shoot a clearly disturbed girl. He failed at his job this time.

As I said, as a first action, he could have (and IMO should have) backed off and waited for backup before trying to control the clearly disturbed girl. Trying to subdue her by himself greatly increased the risk to both her and himself.

Is that really so fucking hard for you to understand?

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to these sorts of people, any impediment whatsoever to cops indiscriminately murdering anyone without any consequence whatsoever is imposing handicaps on the cops and trying to destroy the moral fabric of america.

No, you are just trying to impose ridiculous handicaps on cops, not trying to destroy the moral fabric of America.

"Don't shoot clearly disturbed people" is a ridiculous handicap?

Back up how far? The more he backs up, the harder it is to hit the target and the harder it is to orient himself to shoot the target instead of a nearby bystander near the line of fire.

She was a disturbed 17-year-old girl with a family, not a "target"! Jesus Fucking Christ! Why the supposed need to shoot her? Again, look for ways not to shoot her!

And there wasn't a nearby bystander. When he initially approached her, talked to her, and she apparently indicated she had a weapon (gun or knife), instead of trying to subdue/control her by himself, back off to the other side of the lobby, get a row or two of chairs between her and him, get on the radio, and get more officers ASAP. They were coming already; he wouldn't have had to wait long. Talk calmly to the girl from across the room. Then the initial physical confrontation, if necessary, instead of him trying to control the girl by himself, would be him and one or more other officers. Get her cuffed, get her help.

Instead, he chose to escalate the situation by himself by trying to control/subdue her by himself.

She was not just a threat to the cop. She was a lethal threat to anyone in the vicinity. That's what makes her a target. You would like the cop to back away how far? Maybe far enough so that a bystander at the other end of the firing line has no choice but to die?

 

[ApostateAbe]

No, you are just trying to impose ridiculous handicaps on cops, not trying to destroy the moral fabric of America.

Please explain how expecting the first reaction police officers inside of a police station when faced with someone armed with knife is not to shoot to kill is imposing a ridiculous handicap on the police.

The shooting wasn't the first reaction when faced with someone armed with a knife. It was the reaction in response to a lunging attacker with a knife.

 

[laughing dog]

Please explain how expecting the first reaction police officers inside of a police station when faced with someone armed with knife is not to shoot to kill is imposing a ridiculous handicap on the police.

The shooting wasn't the first reaction when faced with someone armed with a knife. It was the reaction in response to a lunging attacker with a knife.

Fine, be evasive. Explain the how expecting them not to immediately fire after the lunge is handicapping the police.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I strongly suspect he backed off because he wasn't in a position to ensure he didn't get stabbed.

He seemed to have been in the position to cuff her. And then he leaps off like a cat. He drew his gun twice. A guy that large, on top of her... he had the control. Officer buddies get in and all ends well. He beyond fucked up.

People with self-defense training know something people without self-defense training generally do not know, though maybe it should be obvious even to those without. When you are on the ground in a mount on top of an opponent, you are highly vulnerable to anyone else who may be in the company of the opponent. Attackers are not always alone.

 

[laughing dog]

He seemed to have been in the position to cuff her. And then he leaps off like a cat. He drew his gun twice. A guy that large, on top of her... he had the control. Officer buddies get in and all ends well. He beyond fucked up.

People with self-defense training know something people without self-defense training generally do not know, though maybe it should be obvious even to those without. When you are on the ground in a mount on top of an opponent, you are highly vulnerable to anyone else who may be in the company of the opponent. Attackers are not always alone.

The girl was, so what exactly is your point?

 

[ApostateAbe]

The shooting wasn't the first reaction when faced with someone armed with a knife. It was the reaction in response to a lunging attacker with a knife.

Fine, be evasive. Explain the how expecting them not to immediately fire after the lunge is handicapping the police.

Well, it is a handicap because it greatly increases the cop's odds of getting killed with a knife.

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People with self-defense training know something people without self-defense training generally do not know, though maybe it should be obvious even to those without. When you are on the ground in a mount on top of an opponent, you are highly vulnerable to anyone else who may be in the company of the opponent. Attackers are not always alone.

The girl was, so what exactly is your point?

Maybe your point was that the cop should have been omniscient.

 

[laughing dog]

Fine, be evasive. Explain the how expecting them not to immediately fire after the lunge is handicapping the police.

Well, it is a handicap because it greatly increases the cop's odds of getting killed with a knife.

So does not immediately executing on the spot, but they did not. Try again.

Maybe your point was that the cop should have been omniscient.

Since this was inside a police station. The police officer is not blind. And there are other police officers. So I think "omniscient" does not mean what you think it means. How about a response that remotely makes sense?

 

[ApostateAbe]

laughing dog, I think your arguments have a reasoning power on such a level that only you would stand behind them, so I won't argue with you anymore.

 

[Shadowy Man]

People with self-defense training know something people without self-defense training generally do not know, though maybe it should be obvious even to those without. When you are on the ground in a mount on top of an opponent, you are highly vulnerable to anyone else who may be in the company of the opponent. Attackers are not always alone.

The girl was, so what exactly is your point?

It sounds like he's suggesting that police should have only one policy, one that works in all cases, assuming the worst possible of cases. This then allows the police to not have to worry about threat assessment or deescalation techniques. This greatly reduces the training necessary for the police and the thinking necessary in individual situations.

 

[laughing dog]

laughing dog, I think your arguments have a reasoning power on such a level that only you would stand behind them, so I won't argue with you anymore.

I used to find the absurd lengths that people like you would go to justify killings fascinating, but now they just make me fear and cringe for those in vicinity.

 

[ApostateAbe]

The girl was, so what exactly is your point?

It sounds like he's suggesting that police should have only one policy, one that works in all cases, assuming the worst possible of cases. This then allows the police to not have to worry about threat assessment or deescalation techniques. This greatly reduces the training necessary for the police and the thinking necessary in individual situations.

That's not exactly what I am saying, but I do think there is something to be said for standard training and standard procedures. When you are acting in defense of your life, you generally act on instinct and habit, not on rational context-aware assessments. That said, I don't know how we can expect the cop to know that that the attacker was alone with no company on the way.

 

[arkirk]

Does anybody remember 911. It was just a bunch of clowns with box cutters who managed to intimidate hundreds of passengers to just sit and do nothing when they cumulatively were armed with hundreds of flotation device which they could have used to pin the hijackers down. THERE WERE NO GUNS INVOLVED. lt is hard for me to envision hundreds of people not making some kind of effort to save themselves...even though they did not have guns, but that was the case. Now in a police station, loaded with people with martial arts training they got in the academy, the necessity to shoot this girl also is an extreme stretch. It was like they got their training from Indiana Jones.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Does anybody remember 911. It was just a bunch of clowns with box cutters who managed to intimidate hundreds of passengers to just sit and do nothing when they cumulatively were armed with hundreds of flotation device which they could have used to pin the hijackers down. THERE WERE NO GUNS INVOLVED. lt is hard for me to envision hundreds of people not making some kind of effort to save themselves...even though they did not have guns, but that was the case. Now in a police station, loaded with people with martial arts training they got in the academy, the necessity to shoot this girl also is an extreme stretch. It was like they got their training from Indiana Jones.

OK, so you are in support of the sweet jujitsu moves in response to a knife instead of the shooting. I have had a lot of self-defense training to defend against knife attackers. I would choose to defend myself with my hands instead of a gun against a knife only if I was suicidal.

 

[arkirk]

Does anybody remember 911. It was just a bunch of clowns with box cutters who managed to intimidate hundreds of passengers to just sit and do nothing when they cumulatively were armed with hundreds of flotation device which they could have used to pin the hijackers down. THERE WERE NO GUNS INVOLVED. lt is hard for me to envision hundreds of people not making some kind of effort to save themselves...even though they did not have guns, but that was the case. Now in a police station, loaded with people with martial arts training they got in the academy, the necessity to shoot this girl also is an extreme stretch. It was like they got their training from Indiana Jones.

OK, so you are in support of the sweet jujitsu moves in response to a knife instead of the shooting. I have had a lot of self-defense training to defend against knife attackers. I would choose to defend myself with my hands instead of a gun against a knife only if I was suicidal.

I did not specify going after her with hands but I do know there is a lot of material available other than guns that could have been used...also you apparently did not take any of your training to heart. This might have been what happened at the police station...the officers just took the easy way out. Being a good cop is a very hard job. That is why they receive so much training and conditioning.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

There would be surveillance footage to confirm if she had a weapon, I would assume.

 

[ApostateAbe]

OK, so you are in support of the sweet jujitsu moves in response to a knife instead of the shooting. I have had a lot of self-defense training to defend against knife attackers. I would choose to defend myself with my hands instead of a gun against a knife only if I was suicidal.

I did not specify going after her with hands but I do know there is a lot of material available other than guns that could have been used...also you apparently did not take any of your training to heart. This might have been what happened at the police station...the officers just took the easy way out. Being a good cop is a very hard job. That is why they receive so much training and conditioning.

You can safely defend yourself against a knife with your bare hands if you are Chuck Norris, and you are in a TV studio. Is that the background you are speaking from? You don't think I took my self-defense training to heart? It was the center of my life.

 

[ApostateAbe]

There would be surveillance footage to confirm if she had a weapon, I would assume.

Video is online. It is too low-resolution and too dark to know whether or not there was a knife from the video alone.