US student loans grotesquely high

[RVonse]

Your taxes would still be paying for tuition in that case...

Yes they would and I would be fine with this because I view education as a good return on investment.

What I am absolutely NOT FINE with is paying anyone anything for a bad loan that they made in bad faith. If they were good enough to borrow the money, then THEY should pay what THEY agreed to pay.

Lets just let the taxpayers pay for all the bad car loans next.....

The borrower isn't the one who makes a bad loan in bad faith.

Then who would you blame it on? The tooth fairy? Nobody put a gun to anyone's head to take out a student loan.

 

[thebeave]

Your taxes would still be paying for tuition in that case...

Yes they would and I would be fine with this because I view education as a good return on investment.

What I am absolutely NOT FINE with is paying anyone anything for a bad loan that they made in bad faith. If they were good enough to borrow the money, then THEY should pay what THEY agreed to pay.

Lets just let the taxpayers pay for all the bad car loans next.....

The borrower isn't the one who makes a bad loan in bad faith.

The prospective borrowers need to understand the loan terms and assess whether they will have the means to pay off the loan after graduation, given their future occupation earnings, job prospects and demand, etc. If the numbers don't pan out, then choose a more lucrative major, go to a cheaper college or don't go to college at all and learn a trade, etc. I kind of worry that going forward there is going to be an expectation by future students that loan forgiveness is going to be an ongoing thing and Uncle Sam will just bail them out if things get tough. A bad assumption.

From what I have read recently, we may be at a turning point on college (at least in California). Enrollment is down substantially (cost is too high and going higher, and insufficient, affordable housing). It looks like this latest generation (the young men anyway) are going into vocational education in higher numbers, which I think is a good thing, both for themselves and society. Scholarships for college men are much more rare than for women, so that is yet another impetus for the shift.

 

[Politesse]

It looks like this latest generation (the young men anyway) are going into vocational education in higher numbers, which I think is a good thing, both for themselves and society.

If your concern is student loan related grift, vocational schools aren't solving that problem, they are the problem.

 

[thebeave]

It looks like this latest generation (the young men anyway) are going into vocational education in higher numbers, which I think is a good thing, both for themselves and society.

If your concern is student loan related grift, vocational schools aren't solving that problem, they are the problem.

Student loan grift didn't even enter my mind in my discussion. Yes, there are certainly some vocational schools that are ripping people off but there are plenty that are legit.

 

[bilby]

I can not think of any examples of college degrees for professions that require hard labor.

Your inability to think of something is not good evidence for its non-existence.

 

[Politesse]

It looks like this latest generation (the young men anyway) are going into vocational education in higher numbers, which I think is a good thing, both for themselves and society.

If your concern is student loan related grift, vocational schools aren't solving that problem, they are the problem.

Student loan grift didn't even enter my mind in my discussion.

It definitely should have. The vast bulk of this debt is not the result of students walking up to their friendly small town banker and demanding a loan on fair terms. They are being purposefully and grievously lied to and exploited by an entire crooked industry of predatory lenders.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

Evidence-free assertion. It's also a political drag-queen sort of argument: left-wing posturing. All outrage and no substance, and manufactured outrage at that.

You don't need to see any more evidence than look at what a brick layer does compared to the labor done by a lawyer or accountant. Why should the person who labors with sweat have to pay (with taxation) for someone's degree who sits in the air conditioning all day?

That's not even close to fair.

And sweat is the only measure of the value someone contributes?

 

[Politesse]

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

Evidence-free assertion. It's also a political drag-queen sort of argument: left-wing posturing. All outrage and no substance, and manufactured outrage at that.

You don't need to see any more evidence than look at what a brick layer does compared to the labor done by a lawyer or accountant. Why should the person who labors with sweat have to pay (with taxation) for someone's degree who sits in the air conditioning all day?

That's not even close to fair.

And sweat is the only measure of the value someone contributes?

Deppends on the person. With rightwing thinking, it's important to remember the quiet part they aren't saying-- not everyone loses access to social goods when they become pay-to-play.

 

[thebeave]

It looks like this latest generation (the young men anyway) are going into vocational education in higher numbers, which I think is a good thing, both for themselves and society.

If your concern is student loan related grift, vocational schools aren't solving that problem, they are the problem.

Student loan grift didn't even enter my mind in my discussion.

It definitely should have. The vast bulk of this debt is not the result of students walking up to their friendly small town banker and demanding a loan on fair terms. They are being purposefully and grievously lied to and exploited by an entire crooked industry of predatory lenders.

Fair enough. Students need to understand the concept of Buyer Beware when it comes to student loans, along with a crackdown on these grifters.

The loan grifting works the other way too. Check this one out:

https://www.tmz.com/2024/04/17/brazilian-woman-arrested-dead-uncle-bank-secure-loan/#continued

 

[ZiprHead]

Elon Musk's companies have received over 3 billion in government subsidies. Why are we giving my tax dollars to the richest man in the world?

 

[TV and credit cards]

NPR Many in Gen Z ditch colleges for trade schools.

In 2021, President Biden signed a $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill. Since then, he's been traveling the country promoting the law, which he says will open up thousands of new jobs in trades.

Data from the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center shows the number of students enrolled in vocational-focused community colleges increased 16% from 2022 to 2023.

After spending almost six years hiring various small contractors in my last job, I sometimes wish I had gone this route right out of high school. Most of the contractors I dealt with had all the work they wanted. It's not difficult to excel and make a good living. You're not swimming in the deep end of the pool here. It's been my observation most small contractors know their trade and little else. The business aspect of it: zilch. Managing people: zilch.

And at the other end of the spectrum, you have these crybabies:
Some young people see Trump as an answer to their economic woes

Reuters interviewed 20 people under the age of 30 to understand their support. The most common reason given for backing the former president was inflation and the perception the economy was not working for them, underscoring how the rise in prices for daily staples is more salient for some than high stock prices and low unemployment during the Biden years.

Won't take advantage of any voc tech their high school/county may offer. Won't look to a career in the military. Just sit on their ass and hope a good job falls in their lap and when it doesn't, find someone to blame.

Just an hour south of me is an entire community of folks with eighth grade educations, who do not use electricity or drive cars and do quite well for themselves in the trades. In fact many of them are quite wealthy.

In today's economy, people are running out of excuses.

 

[lpetrich]

Missouri, Kansas judges temporarily halt much of President Biden's student debt forgiveness plan | AP News - 8:04 AM PDT, June 25, 2024

Federal judges in Kansas and Missouri on Monday together blocked much of a Biden administration student loan repayment plan that provides a faster path to cancellation and lower monthly payments for millions of borrowers.

The judges’ rulings prevent the U.S. Department of Education from helping many of the intended borrowers ease their loan repayment burdens going forward under a rule set to go into effect July 1. The decisions do not cancel assistance already provided to borrowers.

US judges block parts of Biden's student loan relief plan | Reuters - June 24, 20247:50 PM PDT

Two federal judges in Kansas and Missouri on Monday at the urging of several Republican-led states blocked President Joe Biden's administration from further implementing a new student debt relief plan that lowers payments.

U.S. District Judge Daniel Crabtree in Wichita, Kansas, blocked, opens new tab the U.S. Department of Education from implementing parts of a student loan repayment plan not already in effect that cuts borrowers' monthly payments and provides a faster path to have debts forgiven.

He ruled shortly before U.S. District Judge John Ross in St. Louis, Missouri, issued a preliminary injunction, opens new tab barring the department from granting further loan forgiveness under the administration's Saving on a Valuable Education (SAVE) Plan.

Appeals court allows part of Biden student loan repayment plan to go forward | AP News - 1:26 PM PDT, July 1, 2024

A federal appeals court has allowed the U.S. Education Department to move ahead with a plan to lower monthly payments for millions of student loan borrowers, putting on hold a ruling last week by a lower court.

The ruling from the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals puts back on track a central part of President Joe Biden’s efforts to address student debt — a rule that lowers from 10% of discretionary income to 5% the amount that some borrowers qualifying for a repayment plan need to pay.

 

[lpetrich]

Biden administration cancels another $1.2 billion in student loans for public service workers | AP News

The relief for roughly 35,000 borrowers was announced Thursday by the Education Department and made through changes to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, which benefits workers such as teachers, nurses and firefighters. Those qualifying for forgiveness have their remaining loan balance eliminated after making 120 qualifying monthly payments.

“These 35,000 borrowers approved for forgiveness today are public service workers — teachers, nurses, law enforcement officials, and first responders who have dedicated their lives to strengthening their communities, and because of the fixes we made to Public Service Loan Forgiveness, they will now have more breathing room to support themselves and their families,” Biden said in a statement.

However,
Student Loan Payments Could Double For Some If Supreme Court Rules Against Biden

Several Republican-led states and conservative-leaning legal groups have asked the Supreme Court to intervene in an ongoing legal challenge over a key Biden administration student debt relief program.

The Saving on a Valuable Education, or SAVE, plan, is a new income-driven repayment plan that the Education Department released last fall. The program’s benefits include lower payments, a subsidy that ends runaway interest accrual, and multiple pathways to student loan forgiveness. But the challengers are trying to block the SAVE plan, arguing that the program’s generous benefits far exceed what Congress originally authorized when it passed legislation establishing IDR plans.

 

[laughing dog]

Biden administration cancels another $1.2 billion in student loans for public service workers | AP News

The relief for roughly 35,000 borrowers was announced Thursday by the Education Department and made through changes to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, which benefits workers such as teachers, nurses and firefighters. Those qualifying for forgiveness have their remaining loan balance eliminated after making 120 qualifying monthly payments.

“These 35,000 borrowers approved for forgiveness today are public service workers — teachers, nurses, law enforcement officials, and first responders who have dedicated their lives to strengthening their communities, and because of the fixes we made to Public Service Loan Forgiveness, they will now have more breathing room to support themselves and their families,” Biden said in a statement.

However,
Student Loan Payments Could Double For Some If Supreme Court Rules Against Biden

Several Republican-led states and conservative-leaning legal groups have asked the Supreme Court to intervene in an ongoing legal challenge over a key Biden administration student debt relief program.

The Saving on a Valuable Education, or SAVE, plan, is a new income-driven repayment plan that the Education Department released last fall. The program’s benefits include lower payments, a subsidy that ends runaway interest accrual, and multiple pathways to student loan forgiveness. But the challengers are trying to block the SAVE plan, arguing that the program’s generous benefits far exceed what Congress originally authorized when it passed legislation establishing IDR plans.

How do these assholes have standing?

 

[lpetrich]

Federal appeals court halts Biden’s SAVE plan - "An emergency stay issued Thursday prompted calls for the Education Department to pause student loan payments for borrowers. The agency says it is assessing its options following the ruling."

Debt-relief advocacy groups decried the decision and called on the Biden administration to pause all student loan payments, citing the uncertainty for borrowers that they expect the order to cause. Other experts predicted that the Education Department would likely pause payments only for borrowers enrolled in SAVE.

Biden administration lawyers had warned the court of chaos ensuing if the stay was granted.

“The department and its student loan servicers prepared for months to implement the SAVE plan, including by updating their computer systems and notifying borrowers of their new payment amounts,” they wrote in court filings. “Now, those processes will be thrown into disarray—and millions of borrowers plunged into uncertainty about their payment obligations—if this court grants the motion.”

...
Education Secretary Miguel Cardona said late Thursday night that borrowers enrolled in SAVE will be placed in an interest-free forbearance while the department defends the plan in court, noting that the ruling “could have devastating consequences” for millions of borrowers.

...
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit offered no explanation for granting the request for a stay, which puts the entire SAVE plan on hold until the judges can rule on the states’ request for a preliminary injunction.

 

[Derec]

I still don't see why it makes sense to give a special loan forgiveness to the group of people who make more on average anyway.

And it certainly should not be done by executive fiat.

 

[lpetrich]

I still don't see why it makes sense to give a special loan forgiveness to the group of people who make more on average anyway.

Trying to channel Bernie Sanders and AOC.

And it certainly should not be done by executive fiat.

Though it's interpretation of existing legislation.

If Congress lets itself be a Congrès fainéant on many issues, then the executive and judicial branches will fill in for it.

 

[Derec]

Trying to channel Bernie Sanders and AOC.

Yupp. Biden being King Theoden, channeling Bernie Sandersman the White and Alexandria Occasio Wormtongue.
Who will be our Gandalf? The hour is drawing late.

Though it's interpretation of existing legislation.

A very shaky one. Not that Biden has not done shaky executive actions before, such as the eviction moratorium.

If Congress lets itself be a Congrès fainéant on many issues, then the executive and judicial branches will fill in for it.

Sure, Congress has been nigh useless, but that does not excuse executive overreaches. Especially when it is not good policy but rather blatant paying off a demographic loyal to Biden/Dems electorally.
And it sets an unsavory precedent. You may like policies Biden pushes through his decrees with shaky legal foundation, but Trump will play the same game if elected, and you won't like his policies nearly as much.

 

[ZiprHead]

I still don't see why it makes sense to give a special loan forgiveness to the group of people who make more on average anyway.

And it certainly should not be done by executive fiat.

What is it about “These 35,000 borrowers approved for forgiveness today are public service workers — teachers, nurses, law enforcement officials, and first responders who have dedicated their lives to strengthening their communities, and because of the fixes we made to Public Service Loan Forgiveness, they will now have more breathing room to support themselves and their families,” that you don't get?

 

[Derec]

What is it about “These 35,000 borrowers approved for forgiveness today are public service workers — teachers, nurses, law enforcement officials, and first responders who have dedicated their lives to strengthening their communities, and because of the fixes we made to Public Service Loan Forgiveness, they will now have more breathing room to support themselves and their families,” that you don't get?

I did not mean the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (although medical professionals make very good money), but the student loan cancellation in general, about which proponents have become quite rabid.
The one-time forgiveness of $20k is not even the worst part of the Biden policy, but the changes he made to the repayment minimums, to the effect that most people, even though making good salaries, don't have to repay much, or any, or their loans.