What are your opinions about undocumented immigrants?

[Toni]

My immigration reform plan:

Hire about 4,000 immigration judges, they do 4 cases per day, 1 hours 30 minutes per case, 250 days a year, for 4,000,000 total per year. Any particularly complex cases could be done during the last case of the day which could have a longer time block available, if needed. You pay them $100,000 each annually, for a total cost of $400,000,000/year. You charge each individual seeking asylum or any other legal avenue to stay in the USA a $500 application fee. They show up at a processing center at the border, of which there would be several. For 4,000,000 in a year, this is $2 billion in revenue. So there would be $1.6 billion left over after paying the judges. This could be used to pay for people to assist them with the application and assist during the court hearing, government officials to review the claims and create a report of findings for the judge to consider (whether there is sufficient evidence to support any factual claims made in the asylum application, run backround checks and criminal records checks, review documentation like birth certificate and ID to make sure it is legit). You could have their claim processed in a week since there wouldn't be a backlog. The US could work with Mexico to house these individuals in Mexico during their one week wait time for their claim to be processed. Perhaps private hostels could house them at the border for a small fee, or have some camp sites available with facilities for a small camping fee.

For those that can't afford the fee, perhaps private organizations could help assist, or perhaps there could be an exceptional needs wavior one could apply for, allowed for a subset of cases, to be paid back if their application is approved and they gain employment in the US.

They could have the judges working at the border and have several processing centers along the border. They would show up for their hearing and allowed in if their application is approved. If denied they would be sent back to Mexico and they can then either pay $500 again in year (or some time period) to try again, or go back to their home country. The application fee and the number of judges could be scaled up and down based on demand and cost.

For border security, you have a combination of drones and sensor towers along the border that can detect any movement and heat signature across the border. You have patrol stations with a few individual border patrol agents every 5 miles or so. 2,000 miles of southern border means 400 patrol stations. If average staffing levels were 15 people per station 24 hours/day, 3 shifts, then this would be 18,000 border patrol agents. These stations would be staffed by drone pilots and mobile agents. Any person detected coming across the border is then tracked by drone until agents can intercept them in their vehicle and then make the arrest and then either put them in jail for a period of time as a consequence of the illegal action and then send them out of the country, and also they would be permanently banned from legal entry into the US.

No more bullshit traffic stops and extra-constitutional powers for border patrol agents within 100 miles of the border like they presently have. This setup could be such that they can detect and intercept virtually anyone crossing. If someone still manages to make it through without being tracked by the drone, then that is border patrol's fault and we as a country would need to beef it up a little more if too many are still slipping through (hard to see this happening much though).

Anyone whose application was accepted and allowed to stay in the country could be issued a work permit and a tax ID number. They would need to check in every three months and provide their current home address and employer. Anyone who commits more than a petty crime (like a minor traffic violation) could be deported after a hearing. After a couple of years and a clean record they could be elgible for a green card and eventually become a naturalized citizen as currently is the process.

I would also widen the available paths to enter the US legally (allow more applications to be accepted), but that can be settled with our political process.

For existing undocumented people in the US, would grant them a one time amnesty. They need to show up at a processing center, declare who they are, pay a small processing fee, would need a clean record and then give them a process to get a work permit, tax ID number, and then allow eventual green card and eventual citizenship. Anyone who does not take the amnesty would be deportable with an expedited process (they missed their chance).

You will not get anyone qualified to be a judge for $100K/year. You want not just those who have passed the bar but those with specialization in immigration law. You’d be hard pressed to find a decent immigration attorney with more than five seconds of experience for $100K/annually. The 1.5 hrs/case is laughable if you are at all interested in justice and fairness under the law. It takes more time than that to fill out the forms.

I am not arguing in principle but stating that. your proposal is naive in multiple respects.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I thought Progressives were for open borders.

Lumpenproletariat's posts are usually in Madlib style, so these conflicts in accusations are to be expected.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You will not get anyone qualified to be a judge for $100K/year. You want not just those who have passed the bar but those with specialization in immigration law. You’d be hard pressed to find a decent immigration attorney with more than five seconds of experience for $100K/annually. The 1.5 hrs/case is laughable if you are at all interested in justice and fairness under the law. It takes more time than that to fill out the forms.

I am not arguing in principle but stating that. your proposal is naive in multiple respects.

Indeed. The "solution" to immigration isn't going to be resolvable with a bullet point list. It is going to be a long outline that requires prerequisite acceptances/solutions before moving on. It will also require a lot of legislation. And the hardest part for America... will be the commitment to it.

It will cost a good deal of money, both at the store and in governance. But before that happens, we need to accept the level of migrant employment currently in the United States. We can't even get that far. Forget about expunging it or condoning it or managing it. We can't even accept the standing conditions.

America is exceptionally pathetic in this manner.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But they are generally building housing, cleaning up after our elderly, picking our crops. But until the right-wing populists stop making this a illegal criminals bullshit attack ad, we can't even address the labor issues.

It's down to the government to sort it out and neither side seems willing.

That's bullshit. W had a plan. The GOP crashed it. It could have possibly been done in 2009/10, but the Democrats decided to slit their throats expanding health care coverage instead of widespread immigration reform which would have resulted in a likewise bloodbath.

That still looks like neither side is willing to sort it.

You need new glasses.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

My immigration reform plan:

Hire about 4,000 immigration judges, they do 4 cases per day, 1 hours 30 minutes per case, 250 days a year, for 4,000,000 total per year. Any particularly complex cases could be done during the last case of the day which could have a longer time block available, if needed. You pay them $100,000 each annually, for a total cost of $400,000,000/year. You charge each individual seeking asylum or any other legal avenue to stay in the USA a $500 application fee. They show up at a processing center at the border, of which there would be several. For 4,000,000 in a year, this is $2 billion in revenue. So there would be $1.6 billion left over after paying the judges. This could be used to pay for people to assist them with the application and assist during the court hearing, government officials to review the claims and create a report of findings for the judge to consider (whether there is sufficient evidence to support any factual claims made in the asylum application, run backround checks and criminal records checks, review documentation like birth certificate and ID to make sure it is legit). You could have their claim processed in a week since there wouldn't be a backlog. The US could work with Mexico to house these individuals in Mexico during their one week wait time for their claim to be processed. Perhaps private hostels could house them at the border for a small fee, or have some camp sites available with facilities for a small camping fee.

For those that can't afford the fee, perhaps private organizations could help assist, or perhaps there could be an exceptional needs wavior one could apply for, allowed for a subset of cases, to be paid back if their application is approved and they gain employment in the US.

They could have the judges working at the border and have several processing centers along the border. They would show up for their hearing and allowed in if their application is approved. If denied they would be sent back to Mexico and they can then either pay $500 again in year (or some time period) to try again, or go back to their home country. The application fee and the number of judges could be scaled up and down based on demand and cost.

For border security, you have a combination of drones and sensor towers along the border that can detect any movement and heat signature across the border. You have patrol stations with a few individual border patrol agents every 5 miles or so. 2,000 miles of southern border means 400 patrol stations. If average staffing levels were 15 people per station 24 hours/day, 3 shifts, then this would be 18,000 border patrol agents. These stations would be staffed by drone pilots and mobile agents. Any person detected coming across the border is then tracked by drone until agents can intercept them in their vehicle and then make the arrest and then either put them in jail for a period of time as a consequence of the illegal action and then send them out of the country, and also they would be permanently banned from legal entry into the US.

No more bullshit traffic stops and extra-constitutional powers for border patrol agents within 100 miles of the border like they presently have. This setup could be such that they can detect and intercept virtually anyone crossing. If someone still manages to make it through without being tracked by the drone, then that is border patrol's fault and we as a country would need to beef it up a little more if too many are still slipping through (hard to see this happening much though).

Anyone whose application was accepted and allowed to stay in the country could be issued a work permit and a tax ID number. They would need to check in every three months and provide their current home address and employer. Anyone who commits more than a petty crime (like a minor traffic violation) could be deported after a hearing. After a couple of years and a clean record they could be elgible for a green card and eventually become a naturalized citizen as currently is the process.

I would also widen the available paths to enter the US legally (allow more applications to be accepted), but that can be settled with our political process.

For existing undocumented people in the US, would grant them a one time amnesty. They need to show up at a processing center, declare who they are, pay a small processing fee, would need a clean record and then give them a process to get a work permit, tax ID number, and then allow eventual green card and eventual citizenship. Anyone who does not take the amnesty would be deportable with an expedited process (they missed their chance).

You will not get anyone qualified to be a judge for $100K/year. You want not just those who have passed the bar but those with specialization in immigration law. You’d be hard pressed to find a decent immigration attorney with more than five seconds of experience for $100K/annually. The 1.5 hrs/case is laughable if you are at all interested in justice and fairness under the law. It takes more time than that to fill out the forms.

I am not arguing in principle but stating that. your proposal is naive in multiple respects.

I agree except for the salary numbers. Expensive can = better, but often times people hire big law firms to represent them in simple matters when a solo practitioner could do the same thing for them at 1/5 the cost.

Some matters can be handled in under 5 minutes, but those tend to be for criminal misdemeanor matters where the vast majority are plea bargains. The first time I saw it, I thought of an assembly line. This wouldn't work in any other field, immigration included.

Also, except when it comes to trial/evidentiary hearings, judges handle a helluva lot more than 4 cases per day.

There are some law firms who specialize in pro bono work, but those are relatively rare and rely on government support to do the job.

Anyway, the idea of simplicity is nice e.g. "Just do this!" but doesn't reflect the reality that what on the surface appear to be routine often become quite complex. IOW, it ain't a one and done type of matter.

 

[Toni]

My immigration reform plan:

Hire about 4,000 immigration judges, they do 4 cases per day, 1 hours 30 minutes per case, 250 days a year, for 4,000,000 total per year. Any particularly complex cases could be done during the last case of the day which could have a longer time block available, if needed. You pay them $100,000 each annually, for a total cost of $400,000,000/year. You charge each individual seeking asylum or any other legal avenue to stay in the USA a $500 application fee. They show up at a processing center at the border, of which there would be several. For 4,000,000 in a year, this is $2 billion in revenue. So there would be $1.6 billion left over after paying the judges. This could be used to pay for people to assist them with the application and assist during the court hearing, government officials to review the claims and create a report of findings for the judge to consider (whether there is sufficient evidence to support any factual claims made in the asylum application, run backround checks and criminal records checks, review documentation like birth certificate and ID to make sure it is legit). You could have their claim processed in a week since there wouldn't be a backlog. The US could work with Mexico to house these individuals in Mexico during their one week wait time for their claim to be processed. Perhaps private hostels could house them at the border for a small fee, or have some camp sites available with facilities for a small camping fee.

For those that can't afford the fee, perhaps private organizations could help assist, or perhaps there could be an exceptional needs wavior one could apply for, allowed for a subset of cases, to be paid back if their application is approved and they gain employment in the US.

They could have the judges working at the border and have several processing centers along the border. They would show up for their hearing and allowed in if their application is approved. If denied they would be sent back to Mexico and they can then either pay $500 again in year (or some time period) to try again, or go back to their home country. The application fee and the number of judges could be scaled up and down based on demand and cost.

For border security, you have a combination of drones and sensor towers along the border that can detect any movement and heat signature across the border. You have patrol stations with a few individual border patrol agents every 5 miles or so. 2,000 miles of southern border means 400 patrol stations. If average staffing levels were 15 people per station 24 hours/day, 3 shifts, then this would be 18,000 border patrol agents. These stations would be staffed by drone pilots and mobile agents. Any person detected coming across the border is then tracked by drone until agents can intercept them in their vehicle and then make the arrest and then either put them in jail for a period of time as a consequence of the illegal action and then send them out of the country, and also they would be permanently banned from legal entry into the US.

No more bullshit traffic stops and extra-constitutional powers for border patrol agents within 100 miles of the border like they presently have. This setup could be such that they can detect and intercept virtually anyone crossing. If someone still manages to make it through without being tracked by the drone, then that is border patrol's fault and we as a country would need to beef it up a little more if too many are still slipping through (hard to see this happening much though).

Anyone whose application was accepted and allowed to stay in the country could be issued a work permit and a tax ID number. They would need to check in every three months and provide their current home address and employer. Anyone who commits more than a petty crime (like a minor traffic violation) could be deported after a hearing. After a couple of years and a clean record they could be elgible for a green card and eventually become a naturalized citizen as currently is the process.

I would also widen the available paths to enter the US legally (allow more applications to be accepted), but that can be settled with our political process.

For existing undocumented people in the US, would grant them a one time amnesty. They need to show up at a processing center, declare who they are, pay a small processing fee, would need a clean record and then give them a process to get a work permit, tax ID number, and then allow eventual green card and eventual citizenship. Anyone who does not take the amnesty would be deportable with an expedited process (they missed their chance).

You will not get anyone qualified to be a judge for $100K/year. You want not just those who have passed the bar but those with specialization in immigration law. You’d be hard pressed to find a decent immigration attorney with more than five seconds of experience for $100K/annually. The 1.5 hrs/case is laughable if you are at all interested in justice and fairness under the law. It takes more time than that to fill out the forms.

I am not arguing in principle but stating that. your proposal is naive in multiple respects.

I agree except for the salary numbers. Expensive can = better, but often times people hire big law firms to represent them in simple matters when a solo practitioner could do the same thing for them at 1/5 the cost.

Some matters can be handled in under 5 minutes, but those tend to be for criminal misdemeanor matters where the vast majority are plea bargains. The first time I saw it, I thought of an assembly line. This wouldn't work in any other field, immigration included.

Also, except when it comes to trial/evidentiary hearings, judges handle a helluva lot more than 4 cases per day.

There are some law firms who specialize in pro bono work, but those are relatively rare and rely on government support to do the job.

Anyway, the idea of simplicity is nice e.g. "Just do this!" but doesn't reflect the reality that what on the surface appear to be routine often become quite complex. IOW, it ain't a one and done type of matter.

I'm just talking basic cost of a decent attorney/year. Definitely more than $100K. Speaking as someone who knows a decent number of attorneys, mostly small town practices and public defender types. Even public defenders earn more than $100K/year, except, perhaps for those freshly from the bar exam.

 

[TomC]

I occasionally fantasize about a big yard placard.
It would depict the Statue of Liberty and Jesus standing there with His arm around her shoulder.
Across the bottom would be big letters:

What you do for the Least you do for Me
Matthew 25-40

Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

Thar Republicans such as JD Vance who want to greatly restrict immigration at the same time want to increase the number of babies being born to American women makes a strong case for the conclusion that that their main concern is to keep the US whiter.

Yea this is a bunch of BS! You need to wake up! There is no greater friend of the oppressed and down trodden refugees than President Trump. Just today his administration fast tracked the immigration status of hundreds of Africans. They landed in America today.

 

[scombrid]

Bunch of slope-headed inbred Boers.

 

[RVonse]

I am not informed enough to make intelligent decisions on how to change our immigration law, but there are some good ideas in this thread in my opinion.

My basic thoughts still hold; I can't bring myself to condemn people who have risked everything just to escape the horrors in their home country. The idea of sending them back when the only thing they have done is come here for freedom just appalls me.

Ruth

But do you walk the talk? Is your home unlocked? Do you allow anyone who is down on their luck to stay in your spare bedroom? I'm guessing the answer is no. I'm guessing its NOT ok for your neighbor to come in you home anytime they are having a bad freedom day.

I'm also guessing you are no better than the typical liberal who wants to spend other people's money so they can "feel" noble. That you are no better than America's liberal noble dignitaries living in Martha's Vineyard who want Texas and other people to support what it takes for real compassion to take place. As long as "they" aren't living near them they can still feel noble.

 

[RVonse]

Yeah... the thing with prosecuting people that hire people the US is using to drive the economy seems tone deaf on the issue of there clearly in a demand for the labor.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence. Could you edit it for clarity?

People who want to punish hiring illegals are ignoring that there is a large demand for hiring illegals. The whole "we'll just prosecute them" is like Nancy Reagan's "Just say no".

America needs to stop denying its use of (and potentially addiction to) illegal immigration for labor.

One good way is to insist and to enforce fair wages and benefits for ALL.

Totally agree with this. Strong unions resolve the problem instantly because the existing population would be willing to work the jobs the employers supposedly say they won't. That would remove the incentive for cheap labor to cross our border in the first place.

And if the MAGA populists could somehow sway the rest of the Republicans they would solve this critical incentive for illegal border crossings by themselves without the help of the Democrats. The problem is the traditional Republicans are pretty anti union.

 

[TomC]

But do you walk the talk? Is your home unlocked? Do you allow anyone who is down on their luck to stay in your spare bedroom? I'm guessing the answer is no. I'm guessing its NOT ok for your neighbor to come in you home anytime they are having a bad freedom day

What the hell are you talking about? We actually don't lock our house very often, but what security issues we have are entirely about citizens.
Perhaps you are mistaking a country for a private home? Perhaps you are mistaking immigrants for home intruders? Perhaps you are profoundly ignorant about what "Made America Great in The First Place"?

It was immigrants. Their willingness to work hard and settle for what they get materially, as long as it's in This Land of Freedom, is how America became Great.

I'm also guessing you are no better than the typical liberal who wants to spend other people's money so they can "feel" noble. That you are no better than America's liberal noble dignitaries living in Martha Vineyard who want Texas to carry the water and support what it takes for real compassion to take place.

Spending other people's money on what? How is Texas carrying water for the rest of us? How about we all, including Texans, support a competent and humane immigration system?
Tom

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

I am not informed enough to make intelligent decisions on how to change our immigration law, but there are some good ideas in this thread in my opinion.

My basic thoughts still hold; I can't bring myself to condemn people who have risked everything just to escape the horrors in their home country. The idea of sending them back when the only thing they have done is come here for freedom just appalls me.

Ruth

But do you walk the talk? Is your home unlocked? Do you allow anyone who is down on their luck to stay in your spare bedroom? I'm guessing the answer is no. I'm guessing its NOT ok for your neighbor to come in you home anytime they are having a bad freedom day.

I'm also guessing you are no better than the typical liberal who wants to spend other people's money so they can "feel" noble. That you are no better than America's liberal noble dignitaries living in Martha's Vineyard who want Texas and other people to support what it takes for real compassion to take place. As long as "they" aren't living near them they can still feel noble.

You are quite confused. Liberals want to spend the money that belongs to all the people, via the government, on all the people.
MAGATs want money only spent on their interests.
You have presented a couple of logical fallacies as a substitute for real reasoning, and also making false accusations.
Incidentally blue states subsidize red states. Texas does not engage in real compassion, as can be seen by the hundreds of people killed by actions/inactions of Governor Greg Abbott.

 

[Toni]

I am not informed enough to make intelligent decisions on how to change our immigration law, but there are some good ideas in this thread in my opinion.

My basic thoughts still hold; I can't bring myself to condemn people who have risked everything just to escape the horrors in their home country. The idea of sending them back when the only thing they have done is come here for freedom just appalls me.

Ruth

But do you walk the talk? Is your home unlocked? Do you allow anyone who is down on their luck to stay in your spare bedroom? I'm guessing the answer is no. I'm guessing its NOT ok for your neighbor to come in you home anytime they are having a bad freedom day.

I'm also guessing you are no better than the typical liberal who wants to spend other people's money so they can "feel" noble. That you are no better than America's liberal noble dignitaries living in Martha Vineyard who want Texas to carry the water and support what it takes for real compassion to take place.

Funny thing: Much of the time my doors are unlocked. I do keep my vehicle locked as do the neighbors because there’s someone in the neighborhood whose presence when he is not in jail or prison is heavily correlated with unlocked vehicles being entered and things taken. White dude/appears to be 100% European descent.

And yeah, occasionally we have an extended stay house guest who needs it.

Does that mean I get to have an opinion about immigration? According to your highness, of course.

The fact is that immigrants commit fewer crimes than US citizens. They are less likely to steal, commit assault or homicide or do anything illegal except perhaps be here without the proper paperwork compared with US born people.

 

[TomC]

Funny thing: Much of the time my doors are unlocked.

Heh...
This reminds me of years ago. A couple of friends of mine were trying to retire and selling their home. The first thing the realtor pointed out was "You've got to give me a key."
They hadn't bothered locking the doors in so long they didn't remember what the key looked like, much less where it was.
As Pat explained, "We never locked the house. What if someone really needed to use the phone? What if they wanted their Dutch Oven back, or just borrow something? While we weren't home?"
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

The fact is that immigrants commit fewer crimes than US citizens. They are less likely to steal, commit assault or homicide or do anything illegal except perhaps be here without the proper paperwork compared with US born people.

And therefore they actually lower the crime rate.

 

[Elixir]

Having

“opinions about undocumented immigrants”​

… is probably bigotry and/or unjustified pigeonholing. They’re not a monolith.

 

[bilby]

But do you walk the talk? Is your home unlocked? Do you allow anyone who is down on their luck to stay in your spare bedroom? I'm guessing the answer is no. I'm guessing its NOT ok for your neighbor to come in you home anytime they are having a bad freedom day.

If a country was a house, you might have a point.

It's not. So you don't.

A nation state is not a house. Household economics don't apply to nation states; And nor do household security concerns.

If you think your house is like a country, do you walk the talk? Do you issue passports and visas to people who come to your home to visit, or to do repairs? Do you have a customs post at the front doir, where you search people for contraband? Do you charge tariffs when people bring in goods?

I'm guessing that you don't, and that your claim that the two are similar enough to draw an effective analogy is just an attempt to feel noble about your nationalist bigotry.

 

[Patooka]

But do you walk the talk? Is your home unlocked? Do you allow anyone who is down on their luck to stay in your spare bedroom? I'm guessing the answer is no. I'm guessing its NOT ok for your neighbor to come in you home anytime they are having a bad freedom day.

I'm also guessing you are no better than the typical liberal who wants to spend other people's money so they can "feel" noble. That you are no better than America's liberal noble dignitaries living in Martha's Vineyard who want Texas and other people to support what it takes for real compassion to take place. As long as "they" aren't living near them they can still feel noble.

You seem to think there are only 2 choices with regards to immigration - Trump's human trafficking into concentration camps or completely open borders with zero consequences. That is a moronic argument. It's entirely possible to have a humane immigration and refugee policy; you just can't grift off it.

And that's the real reason why you and the rest of your MAGA cultists are against such a policy.

 

[Patooka]

Totally agree with this. Strong unions resolve the problem instantly because the existing population would be willing to work the jobs the employers supposedly say they won't. That would remove the incentive for cheap labor to cross our border in the first place.

And if the MAGA populists could somehow sway the rest of the Republicans they would solve this critical incentive for illegal border crossings by themselves without the help of the Democrats. The problem is the traditional Republicans are pretty anti union.

For the love of god, please stop pretending you give a flying fuck about working families. Every politician you support pines for the glory days of 19th century Pinkertons and Company Towns.