Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

That is pretty desperate pedantry.

On the contrary. The meanings of words matter.

Only by those who have no rational arguments. Whether or not Arabs who lived in Palestine thought of themselves as "Palestinian" is relevant to the underlying issue that they thought of it as their home.

Do you agree with me that Palestinian propagandists are fundamentally dishonest when they conflate these meanings and use "Palestinian" soccer teams or currency or manhole covers as some sort of "proof" that "Palestine" predates Israel?
As to Arabs living there, some certainly have. But many immigrated into the area in the decades before the founding of the modern State of Israel.
Why should an Arab who moved to the area from Yemen in the 1930s be considered "native", but a Jew who immigrated into the area from Poland in the 1930s be considered "settler colonist"?

Really, since there was no Israel in 1948, should we deny there is such a thing as "Israeli"?

Certainly we should not pretend that there was a State of Israel between the fall of the Hasmonean Kingdom and the reestablishment of the modern state.

No, it is an example of a difference of opinion on what "prosperity" means to different people in different contexts.

Elucidate on the supposed disparate meanings of the word "prosperity" and how they apply in the context of Hamas starting a war that has destroyed Gaza's economy.

While I don't know what Hamas wants, I can easily imagine that if Israel did not exist, that Hamas would exhibit behavior that you might find as encouraging or wanting prosperity for their inhabitants. Does that mean Hamas is in favor or not in favor of prosperity for Gazans? And, does it really matter at this juncture in time, what the answer is?

Whatever Hamas would do (probably establish an Islamic theocratic dictatorship like their masters in Tehran have) if they were successful in destroying Israel does not change the fact that they are willing to sacrifice both their people's lives and their livelihoods to their desire to kill Jews. They are showing gross indifference to the lives of what is ostensibly their people.

 

[Derec]

1482 Map of Palestine.

I do not know what that's supposed to prove, because nobody denies that "Palestine" was used as a regional designation for a long time.
It does not mean that it was an ethnic or national designation before PLO made up the so-called "Palestinian national identity".

 

[Derec]

That’s right, blame the victim for being human.

Being human includes the ability to control oneself and not be captive to one's base instincts.

She was raped because she was wearing sexy clothes. If she didn’t want to be raped, why did she wear sexy clothes?

You probably think exactly like that, don’t you?

Not at all analogous.
I was talking about behavior that makes a claimed bad thing (famine, hunger) worse (i.e. making more babies).
A better analogy would be: 30° F weather is cold, but if you insist on wearing a microskirt with no panties, it is colder than necessary. The smart thing to do would be to wear warm clothes, or not have as many babies as before the war.

 

[Derec]

One in five Gazans could starve to death in the coming months.

That's about as credible as the claims that hundreds of thousands of Gazans have already died despite even Hamas only claiming ~50k fatalities so far.

 

[laughing dog]

It takes a peculiar mindset to call the young sufferers of acute malnutrition caused by the blockade of food in a ceasefire “human shields”.

It takes a bizarre mindset to call the current situation in Gaza a ceasefire.

It was a mutually accepted ceasefire until Israel violated it. Do you have any evidence Hamas is violating the terms of the ceasefire?

Last I recall Hamas broke the ceasefire by not complying with their side of the agreement.

Your recollection is faulty: Why Israel broke its fragile truce in Gaza and is promising more strikes is just one of many reports.

Very deceptive but we can see the truth:

Both Israel and the Trump administration have blamed Hamas for the presumption of hostilities, citing the militant group's refusal to meet Israel's demand to release more hostages in return for the resumption of talks. The first phase of that deal, which had Hamas release 25 living hostages and the bodies of eight in exchange for around 1,800 of Palestinian prisoners, ended March 1.

The second phase was set to kick in 16 days later and would have included the exchange of all the remaining hostages and the establishment of a permanent ceasefire.

And how is this Israel breaking it?? Note the timeline. The 16 days came and went, Hamas didn't follow through. Exactly what I said.

FFS, the initial ceasefire agreement had 3 stages. Both Israel and Hamas abided by the terms of stage 1. When it ended, Israel demanded the release of more hostages, Hamas rejected that demand and insisted the 2nd stage continue as planned. Then Israel started bombing. Like it or not, Israel violated the ceasefire first.

Do you think that the Gazans who launched the missiles at Israel last month gave a rats ass about some hungry kids? Or do you think that they have more important things to do, like keep their grip on power?
Tom

Clearly they don’t, but how does that justify causing acute malnutrition among the children in Gaza.

1) Does the right formula even exist? The reality is that there are some who will die of malnutrition with the best of medical care.

Acute malnutrition is a recognized medical condition - Acute Malnutrition in Children: Pathophysiology, Clinical Effects and Treatment

I'm not denying the baby is malnourished. I'm saying it has not been established that there's anything Israel could have done to change that. There isn't always an answer.

https://www.nestlenutritionstore.com/vivonexr-plus.html

Please note items #3 and #4 in the ingredients list. What of you are anaphylactic to either of these? #4 comes through unchanged from what's in nature.

We are not talking about a single infant. Of course you can deny that blockading food and medical supplies to a region for 3 months did not cause any malnutrition. You just cannot expect anyone to take you seriously.

2) Is there truly none in Gaza, or is it sitting in Hamas storage somewhere so she will starve for the cameras?

I have no idea what that word salad means.

Because you don't want to. Hamas was stealing much of the aid that came in. There very well might be formula somewhere but Hamas is not letting her have it.

You saying it is so doesn't make it so.

 

[laughing dog]

That is pretty desperate pedantry.

On the contrary. The meanings of words matter.

Since people who lived in Palestine are, by definition, Palestinians, application of your standard means your previous claim is invalid.

Only by those who have no rational arguments. Whether or not Arabs who lived in Palestine thought of themselves as "Palestinian" is relevant to the underlying issue that they thought of it as their home.

Do you agree with me that Palestinian propagandists are fundamentally dishonest when they conflate these meanings and use "Palestinian" soccer teams or currency or manhole covers as some sort of "proof" that "Palestine" predates Israel?

Palestine does predate modern Israel. That is a fact.

While I don't know what Hamas wants, I can easily imagine that if Israel did not exist, that Hamas would exhibit behavior that you might find as encouraging or wanting prosperity for their inhabitants. Does that mean Hamas is in favor or not in favor of prosperity for Gazans? And, does it really matter at this juncture in time, what the answer is?

Whatever Hamas would do (probably establish an Islamic theocratic dictatorship like their masters in Tehran have) if they were successful in destroying Israel does not change the fact that they are willing to sacrifice both their people's lives and their livelihoods to their desire to kill Jews. They are showing gross indifference to the lives of what is ostensibly their people.

True. But that does not mean they are against prosperity for their people. It simply means they are willing to trade prosperity now for other goals. You and I may think it is foolish, but that does not mean they are against prosperity for their people.

 

[ZiprHead]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

They keep the conflict going and pretend that the damage done to their human shields is the fault of Israel.
This is true and you know it.
Tom

Starving the populace to get hostages returned is not working. There is no reason to think it will work. Blaming Hamas for Israel’s choices in an attempt to hide the brutality of Israel’s pointless tactics is ironic virtue signalling.

BTW, Israel broke the ceasefire, which means they are keeping the violence going this time.

What should matter most at this point is that there is pointless suffering that is needlessly happening... and all over a perverse intention to harm. We know Hamas are reprehensible. That doesn't make it right.

So what should be done to free Gaza of Hamas?

While the world is figuring out how to achieve that impossible dream,, are you fine with the current policy of withholding food and medical supplies, so that more children are suffering from acute malnutrition?

You aren't addressing the point at all, merely regurgitating Hamas propaganda. If there really were that many in distress why are there no pictures? And why kids? Do the parents not care enough about their children?

You're denying there is malnutrition??? Where are people living in refugee camps supposed to get food from?

Pictures? Cameras and cell phones require power to charge. There is no power. No active cell phone towers even if they could charge their phones.

You ask questions that are so easy to answer but think you have a point.

 

[ZiprHead]

SH, the problem is that there have been claims of "famine" ever since the war started. And people in recent photos do not look emaciated. Even in photos from that NY Times article that makes claims of "famine".

Also, from the article:

Mr. el-Halabi said his daughter, who recently gave birth, was unable to breastfeed because she has not been eating enough. No baby formula is available, he said.

Why are people still have children in a war? Especially if you believe their claims of "famine", why would you bring additional mouths to feed into the world if you can't adequately feed yourself?

Think they have adequate birth control?

But note that famine does provide fair birth control--if a woman's body fat drops too low the system shuts down and conception is unlikely. Yet the birth rate remains high.

Reminds me of this:
"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down".

 

[ZiprHead]

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

So you have no answer.

Where has Hamas been called on a lie by a major news organization?

JFC! They literally buried ambulances along with people bound and shot in the head.

They've also consistently denied the existence of the tunnels and that they build their military based under hospitals and schools. They're not even honest about their mission statement. Ie, being a Iranian tool whose sole existence is about destabalising Israel. Not Palestinian prosperity.

The question we should rather be asking, when was Hamas honest about anything?

That doesn't address anything I said that you replied to. Are you okay?

 

[bilby]

And again, not one link was given that day.

If you want to be taken seriously, post links to your sources and stop making shit up.

Not one link was needed (although one was present) as I was showing that your link doesn't actually mean what you think it means.

Sources of information that support claims being made are always needed.

Links to those sources are always needed and should immediately be provided when other posters ask for them.

Back up your claims, Loren. Link to your sources.

Also, which link of mine "doesn't actually mean" what I think it means? Be specific.

He doesn't need to. I will let this guy explain why:

I have repeatedly seen many individuals who appear to simply not be able to comprehend arguments that go against their fundamental faith. I do not believe it is malicious, but rather an inability to process them adequately.

 

[Derec]

Reminds me of this:
"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down".

The guy who said this just got confused about the species.

 

[Derec]

It was an example of me taking Loren to task for blatant bullshitting, and you white knighting him in support of any attack on Palestinians no matter how inane.

I neither have time nor inclination to take on your entire argument with Loren.
I was commenting specifically on the claim that Hamas cares about the prosperity of regular Gazans. They do not care about their lives, much less livelihoods!

It appears you are trying to drag the conversation away from any acknowledgement of Loren's bullshitting by bullshitting about me.

Again, I am not interested in participating in your overall argument. I was responding to a specific claim you made.

If you think I posted a defense of Hamas, quote me.

It is the totality of your posts that paints that picture. You always blame Israel for things that are happening in Gaza.

And note, while you did say that you started penning a response to some on my points, you don't seem to have actually finished.

 

[Derec]

Think they have adequate birth control?

"Adequate" from the point of view of developed countries, where properly used birth control has very low chance of failing? Of course not.

But even crude methods, such as pulling out or refraining from penetrative sex when the woman is likely to be ovulating would still greatly reduce pregnancy rates. That there are reportedly still almost as many pregnant women and women giving birth every day shows that most couples are still trying to get pregnant.

But note that famine does provide fair birth control--if a woman's body fat drops too low the system shuts down and conception is unlikely. Yet the birth rate remains high.

Indeed. It shows that any malnutrition is not nearly as severe as claimed.

 

[Derec]

Since people who lived in Palestine are, by definition, Palestinians, application of your standard means your previous claim is invalid.

Again, the meaning of the word changed in the second half of the last century due to media taking up PLO propaganda.
Israel haters use that difference in meaning to pretend that "Palestine" in the contemporary definition existed before the modern state of Israel, when that is rank nonsense. As I have shown with the example of the "Palestinian" soccer team from 1939.

Palestine does predate modern Israel. That is a fact.

Palestine, in the contemporary meaning of the word, definitely does not. That is a fact. It's like claiming that computers predate the 20th century because an older definition of the term "computer" was used for humans who perform calculations.

True. But that does not mean they are against prosperity for their people. It simply means they are willing to trade prosperity now for other goals. You and I may think it is foolish, but that does not mean they are against prosperity for their people.

Nobody would be against prosperity for their people in a vacuum. That would be a trivial claim, and thus useless. Nothing exists in a vacuum.
By rating prosperity (and even very lives) of their people well below things like killing Jews and establishing an Islamic theocracy, they show that they do not really care about prosperity for their people.

 

[ZiprHead]

1482 Map of Palestine.

I do not know what that's supposed to prove, because nobody denies that "Palestine" was used as a regional designation for a long time.
It does not mean that it was an ethnic or national designation before PLO made up the so-called "Palestinian national identity".

Yeah, yeah. You keep trotting out this crap because it is what you want to believe.

And who STOLE the land they have now from Palestinians in 1948.

A steaming pile of bullshit!

There was no such thing as a "Palestinian" in 1948. At least not the way that term is understood today, as an ethnonym. That was an invention by the PLO much later.

But he's wrong.

The first known use of the term "Palestinian" to describe the people of Palestine was in the late 19th century and early 20th century, though its meaning has evolved since then. While the term Palestine itself has a much longer history, dating back to ancient Greek times, the use of "Palestinian" as a national identity emerged more recently.

Elaboration:

• Early Uses:
  The term "Palestinian" appeared in print as early as 1898, used by Khalil Baydas to describe the Arabic-speaking population of Palestine. Farid Georges Kassab, in 1909, also used the term, though he also noted that some considered themselves Arabs.
  
  
• Emergence of a Palestinian Identity:
  The concept of a distinct Palestinian identity began to form in the media around 1913, with articles discussing the "Palestinian Race" and Zionists' attempts to create an exclusionary society in Palestine.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Ben & Jerry's co-founder among those arrested at RFK Jr.'s testimony​

 

[ZiprHead]

Ben & Jerry's co-founder among those arrested at RFK Jr.'s testimony​

That Ben guy must be a huge anti-semite.

Wait, wut???

 

[Tigers!]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

My text was maybe a bit too restricted to the quoted text above it. I was referring to why images of starving children aren't more prevalent, and the answer was Israel was restricting access to the press to Gaza.

Doesn't mean Hamas can't provide images. Nothing's stopping that--except clearly they don't have suitable individuals to take pictures of.

They why ask for them?

From the video reports I have seen, it isn't Africa grade famine, but Jebus, where the fuck is your humanity? The children are likely hungry and underfed. Yes, Hamas is a major reason for this. Does that justify Israel making it even worse?

By the reports it should be worse than Africa, yet they have to resort to medical cases to find people to parade in front of the camera.

And your argument about "humanity" is arguing for the side you believe is starving the children.

Hamas still has the hostages. None of this shit is working, it is only making things worse. I want the damn hostages released. I don't want hungry children. I want Hamas to disappear. I want this madness to end. The path to that is through Iran.

If the path is through Iran then where on earth do you expect to finish the journey?

 

[ZiprHead]

NYT on the Ambulance incident.

Pinned by @nytimes

@malachybrowne9902​

3 days ago (edited)
I'm Malachy, one of the producers of this video. When we started investigating what happened to these medics and rescue workers, little was known about how they had come to be killed. Five days after they disappeared their bodies were recovered, but the IDF's responses at that time were opaque. One was still missing. A team of reporters from Gaza, Israel, the West Bank, Cairo, London, New York, Norway and Ireland set about finding answers. Our colleague Bilal Shbair in Gaza tracked down a survivor and two witnesses to the shooting and interviewed them independently. Our colleague Farnaz Fassihi was the first to obtain the video of the shooting above, recovered from the phone of Rifaat Radwan, one of the slain medics. His video supported what the witnesses told us and proved the IDF had lied when it said the medics approached their soldiers suspiciously and without their lights and signals. The Times also obtained a recording of a phone call made by another medic, Ashraf Abu Labda during the attack. By using the sound of gunfire to synchronize his phone call with Rifaat's video, we determined that Israeli soldiers fired for over six minutes, even as the medics were unarmed, sheltering and praying. The IDF confirmed that the 15 rescue workers were unarmed, while autopsy reports confirmed that they died from gunshots - many of them were shot multiple times. We consulted audio and weapons experts who determined from the sound of the gunfire that the IDF closed in around the men and continued firing at them despite the absence of return fire and as the men were still alive. A video shown to one of our reporters in Israel also confirmed the soldiers' movements. We also interviewed an IDF official who led an internal investigation, a pathologist involved in the autopsies, experts in the laws of war and the colleagues of the workers who gave a timeline of their movements that night and details of how their bodies were recovered. We also spoke to the families left to mourn the men. The IDF said that the shooting resulted from a cascading mistakes in which their soldiers misidentified the rescue workers as Hamas militants, even though they admitted they didn't know who was inside the vehicles when they opened fire. The victims worked for the Palestine Red Crescent Society, the Civil Defense and the United Nations, who have called for an independent investigation.

 

[Derec]

Yeah, yeah. You keep trotting out this crap because it is what you want to believe.

Wrong. It's the truth. As I have shown.

But he's wrong.

I would trust the then leader of PLO on this issue far more than some AI slop.