Dem Post Mortem

[Politesse]

Ok, we can disagree, but you never answered the question regarding meeting any Trump voters and realizing they were victims of a cult. Maybe if you had met and talked to some of these people personally and even tried to reason with them, you would understand things better.

I live, and grew up in, deep red country. What is now dedicated Trump country. The town I grew up in was even smaller and more conservative than the city I live in now. It was a gold rush town, then a cornfield town, then a dairy town, then an almond town, and now it is mostly a welfare town (but don't you dare say it). I live in a somewhat bigger city now, but I am still represented in Congress by a man who spends more time at Mar-a-Lago than here. I teach students of all political persuasions, including those raised right in the middle of the very hell of political misinformation that you describe.

I am well aware that your average Trump voter is a "nice person" who will happily fix your carburetor or help you get your cow back in the yard or even let you buy them a drink at the Bait Barn (if you aren't trans or vietnamese or muslim of course!). They sing in the town choir. They print flyers for the Soroptomist's club. They knit socks for their grandchildren (well, the ones who are still cis) and wonder why they never call or come over to mow the lawn anymore. Most are victims of at least two cults, not just one. On Sunday they sing about Jesus being the God of Love, and mean it. On Monday, they grouse that Clinton sent all the factories to Malaysia and illegal immigrants took every job in town and Trump should have them all deported back to whatever hellhole country they came from, and they mean that too. They do not extend pity to foreigners, urban-dwellers, druggies, or queers, but they demand it freely. They make all the food after all, or used to, and shouldn't that give them a place at the table? Why does Obama/Newsom care more about spotted owls and delta smelt and venezuelans than he does about them and their problems? They don't hate blacks, they just think it would be best if we all kept to our own neighborhoods.

They also voted for a dictator. And they should have known better. They truly are grown ups. They can read, most of them. It is common for "country folk" to openly brag about how good they are at reading people, how quickly they can spot a jasper selling snake oil. The men insist that they can get the measure of any man by the strength of his handshake. The women swear that they would do anything for their family. And they voted a con man into the White House. And they are not ashamed of that, and they would and maybe even will do it again, even though they are not children and they know full well that a third term is illegal, because some of them remember when that amendment was passed and all of them were taught it in school, which used to have a whole class called Civics. Many did know better on one level or another, and willfully allowed their hatred or fear of others guide their hand in the voting booth, instead of their brain or their conscience. No, I do not excuse them. No, I do not think they are less culpable for their own action freely taken than someone who refused to vote for whatever reason.

You know who wrote most stirringly about the plight of the rural white? How truly pathetic they were, how they needed "our" pity not "our" scorn, how they were looking for a strong man to clear out Washington because they felt abandoned by society, how none of this was really their fault? For a few years, the great explainer of the poors to the moderate left, American Vice President J.D. Vance.

I am not impressed with his solution to the problem....

 

[ZiprHead]

Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.

What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.

You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.

Really?

Medicare For All (#1)
View attachment 50814

Green New Deal (#2)
View attachment 50810

Universal Child Care (#3)
View attachment 50811

Free Higher Education (#4)
View attachment 50813

Are you sure it's not you in that echo chamber?

#1

#2

#3

#4

Where do you see overwhelming support in your data?? I see overwhelming support for some of those policies amongst some groups, none of that looks overwhelming across the electorate.

So when you said "Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress." you think you were more correct than when I said "overwhelming"?

 

[bilby]

?? Not sure if you are paying attention or not, but I voted for Harris. I'm not a republican. Didn't vote for Trump. But because I describe a politician in America as being to the left compared to other Americans, I'm a fascist? Seriously?

I hope your accusations aren't aimed at me, but I'll be happy to apologize if needed.
IF you tell us whether you're named after the famous painter or after the fictional L.A. detective.

Connelly named his fictional detective after the famous painter, so it can only be both...

 

[Tigers!]

Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.

What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.

You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.

That isn't accurate though. People generally support the things the Democrats want to push forward. The people, however, do not support paying for it.

And there is lies the American Voter Paradox.

That seems to be a world-wide voter paradox, not just American. We all want more esp. if it does not cost us. Apologies to Dire Straits.

 

[Jarhyn]

Backlash against "progress" that many people felt wasn't progress.

And

Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.

What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.

You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.

Really?

Medicare For All (#1)
View attachment 50814

Green New Deal (#2)
View attachment 50810

Universal Child Care (#3)
View attachment 50811

Free Higher Education (#4)
View attachment 50813

Are you sure it's not you in that echo chamber?

#1

#2

#3

#4

This is exactly my point: Americans want progress and Democrats either just suck ass in communicating that what they offer is what people want, or their reps don't actually want those things.

I am just floored by the fact that some of the Democrats in here really don't want those policies. The Overton window shifts because people let themselves be pushed, because those people on the left let themselves be pushed.

 

[Politesse]

their reps don't actually want those things.

Or the sponsors of those reps...

 

[Jarhyn]

their reps don't actually want those things.

Or the sponsors of those reps...

Like, I just don't get why people can't cop to what they want or don't.

Everyone always holds up the opinions of other people, but vanishingly few ever say directly what it is that they want honestly, and I have no time or respect for the majority of people like that, hiding behind false "moderates" rather than owning their own disdain for "progress" for themselves.

Just for the love of fuck quit pretending you got pushed for any reason beyond "you let yourself be pushed, and you seem to like where you ended up".

I kind of get that whole "and you were neither hot nor cold and thus you shall be spat out" bit of the Bible, really. I have more respect for the obvious assholes.

 

[Harry Bosch]

?? Not sure if you are paying attention or not, but I voted for Harris. I'm not a republican. Didn't vote for Trump. But because I describe a politician in America as being to the left compared to other Americans, I'm a fascist? Seriously?

I hope your accusations aren't aimed at me, but I'll be happy to apologize if needed.
IF you tell us whether you're named after the famous painter or after the fictional L.A. detective.

Beautiful paintings huh!? But no, I'm named after Harry Bosch the great detective. It's a great series. Very well written. Love Harry's standard phase that "everyone counts, or no one counts."

Secondly, I was responding to Jarhyn's post accusing me of being complicit with fascism because I'm not sufficiently left enough.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ok, we can disagree, but you never answered the question regarding meeting any Trump voters and realizing they were victims of a cult. Maybe if you had met and talked to some of these people personally and even tried to reason with them, you would understand things better.

I live, and grew up in, deep red country. What is now dedicated Trump country. The town I grew up in was even smaller and more conservative than the city I live in now. It was a gold rush town, then a cornfield town, then a dairy town, then an almond town, and now it is mostly a welfare town (but don't you dare say it). I live in a somewhat bigger city now, but I am still represented in Congress by a man who spends more time at Mar-a-Lago than here. I teach students of all political persuasions, including those raised right in the middle of the very hell of political misinformation that you describe.

In Ohio, you don't need to venture too far from the cities to get to MAGA country. What I've noticed over the last several years is how MAGA country looks the same now as it did under Obama. It hasn't improved. Trump has done nothing to improve it.

How many of these big factories don't go in rural areas (when I say 'go', I mean get announced for and then don't happen)? These people cling to him, but haven't noticed nothing has gotten better in their rural lands. In fact, Trump has likely made things worse, removing investments in safety nets. These people yearn for a better time... that never existed. The 60's and 70's weren't easy. They forget about the uncertainty that comes without the hindsight.

They also voted for a dictator. And they should have known better. They truly are grown ups. They can read, most of them. It is common for "country folk" to openly brag about how good they are at reading people, how quickly they can spot a jasper selling snake oil. The men insist that they can get the measure of any man by the strength of his handshake. The women swear that they would do anything for their family. And they voted a con man into the White House. And they are not ashamed of that, and they would and maybe even will do it again, even though they are not children and they know full well that a third term is illegal, because some of them remember when that amendment was passed and all of them were taught it in school, which used to have a whole class called Civics. Many did know better on one level or another, and willfully allowed their hatred or fear of others guide their hand in the voting booth, instead of their brain or their conscience. No, I do not excuse them. No, I do not think they are less culpable for their own action freely taken than someone who refused to vote for whatever reason.

The greatest curiosity is how hard working people could become so beholden to an outright fraud. They see the Duke and the Dauphin... and are ready to elect them President/Vice President, after their fraud has been exposed. This isn't unique to Trump, religious leaders do this even today. Stealing the money from their followers. However, to see these people, that have seen time leave their community behind, after they put in their fair share... to embrace a guy who stole campaign money from them to 'stop the steal'... still? It is like watching a horror film.

 

[Jarhyn]

?? Not sure if you are paying attention or not, but I voted for Harris. I'm not a republican. Didn't vote for Trump. But because I describe a politician in America as being to the left compared to other Americans, I'm a fascist? Seriously?

I hope your accusations aren't aimed at me, but I'll be happy to apologize if needed.
IF you tell us whether you're named after the famous painter or after the fictional L.A. detective.

Beautiful paintings huh!? But no, I'm named after Harry Bosch the great detective. It's a great series. Very well written. Love Harry's standard phase that "everyone counts, or no one counts."

Secondly, I was responding to Jarhyn's post accusing me of being complicit with fascism because I'm not sufficiently left enough.

Ues you are complicit with fascism because you decide to let the party lean right, because you are one of the people leaning rightward with them.

Sure, Republicans are running and sprinting in that direction, but your leisurely pace in the same direction doesn't go away for simply being relatively slower in your walk.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

their reps don't actually want those things.

Or the sponsors of those reps...

Like, I just don't get why people can't cop to what they want or don't.

Everyone always holds up the opinions of other people, but vanishingly few ever say directly what it is that they want honestly, and I have no time or respect for the majority of people like that, hiding behind false "moderates" rather than owning their own disdain for "progress" for themselves.

Just for the love of fuck quit pretending you got pushed for any reason beyond "you let yourself be pushed, and you seem to like where you ended up".

I kind of get that whole "and you were neither hot nor cold and thus you shall be spat out" bit of the Bible, really. I have more respect for the obvious assholes.

The country consists of over 300 million people with varying desires, needs, hopes, and dreams. Among them are lots of big corporations that employ these people. It is a complicated mess and the deeper you wander into it, the less control and options you'll notice are available. Corporations have a good deal of power, because they have a great deal of leverage. And also... math.

If one walks around in the world of politics with too much naivety, you'll end up looking like Elon Musk... who had no idea what was going on with Federal Budgets and walked away looking like a bloody fool.

I suppose the other thing, that is counter to your point is that the GOP should have had control of the Senate for decades. They haven't, because they did the exact thing you suggested, stuck to their primary guns. Went with the whacky candidate, and lost to the moderate Democrat. Akin, O'Donnell, Walker, Moore, Lake, etc... have ceded Senate seats to the Democrats. That helped provide a stopgap against the GOP. I don't think you quite understand that what you see as bad now, could actually be worse.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

?? Not sure if you are paying attention or not, but I voted for Harris. I'm not a republican. Didn't vote for Trump. But because I describe a politician in America as being to the left compared to other Americans, I'm a fascist? Seriously?

I hope your accusations aren't aimed at me, but I'll be happy to apologize if needed.
IF you tell us whether you're named after the famous painter or after the fictional L.A. detective.

Beautiful paintings huh!? But no, I'm named after Harry Bosch the great detective. It's a great series. Very well written. Love Harry's standard phase that "everyone counts, or no one counts."

Secondly, I was responding to Jarhyn's post accusing me of being complicit with fascism because I'm not sufficiently left enough.

Ues you are complicit with fascism because you decide to let the party lean right, because you are one of the people leaning rightward with them.

Harry Bosch and others aren't narcissists that think that a party that receives tens of millions of votes is beholden to their own personal opinions. The Democrats lean moderate, right-moderate (from a global perspective), because the GOP found a ton of success in selling their brand of Americana. The one thing I'd note is that you are terribly wrong when it comes to the final outcome at this point. The judges appointed by liberal areas, and Democrats have helped usher in an expansion of rights for many Americans. The judges appointed by the GOP have done the opposite. The right-wing figured out, what mattered most was the courts. It'd be nice if you understood just how important that was. The right-wing judges are embracing some aspects of fascism as we speak. That isn't the Democrat judges.

 

[Politesse]

How many of these big factories don't go in rural areas (when I say 'go', I mean get announced for and then don't happen)? These people cling to him, but haven't noticed nothing has gotten better in their rural lands. In fact, Trump has likely made things worse, removing investments in safety nets. These people yearn for a better time... that never existed. The 60's and 70's weren't easy. They forget about the uncertainty that comes without the hindsight

That's the truth! I don't know any family that was actually living the Better Homes & Gardens suburban dream in the 50s. I'm sure they existed somewhere, but that somewhere sure wasn't rural Stanislaus County.

You're right on about the horror show thing, too. It's been like watching a sick dark comedy, watching some of my younger students getting hoodwinked into Trumpism via anti-Central American sentiment, seemingly unaware that his racial bias doesn't stop at the northern border of Guatemala, and that their families will be next. You'll see the same kids panicking about a rymired ICE raid the next day, and I'm like, how are you not connecting these dots? And I'm not allowed to even try to do anything about it. It's maddening.

 

[TSwizzle]

Out with the good vibes and in with the "get mean".

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz is urging his fellow Democrats to show they will fight for the working class. "We didn't just lose the working class. We lost the working class to a billionaire who gives tax cuts to other billionaires," Walz said. The governor says his party needs to be meaner. "I'm getting called out on this because I called Donald Trump a wannabe dictator. It's because he is. It's because he is. 'Oh, the governor's being mean and the governor's speaking out on that.' Maybe it's time for us to be a little meaner. Maybe it's time for us to be a little more fierce," he said.

News

Walz is a dullard.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Odd that the article is somewhat misquoting Gov. Walz. He isn't saying we need to be mean and trip GOP representatives in the hallway and call them names. He was saying that if calling a spade a spade is "being mean", then we need to be "mean".

 

[Politesse]

Out with the good vibes and in with the "get mean".

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz is urging his fellow Democrats to show they will fight for the working class. "We didn't just lose the working class. We lost the working class to a billionaire who gives tax cuts to other billionaires," Walz said. The governor says his party needs to be meaner. "I'm getting called out on this because I called Donald Trump a wannabe dictator. It's because he is. It's because he is. 'Oh, the governor's being mean and the governor's speaking out on that.' Maybe it's time for us to be a little meaner. Maybe it's time for us to be a little more fierce," he said.

News

Walz is a dullard.

The fucking vibes didn't work, man, whaddaya want?

 

[Swammerdami]

The greatest curiosity is how hard working people could become so beholden to an outright fraud. They see the Duke and the Dauphin... and are ready to elect them President/Vice President, after their fraud has been exposed.

Cuss the doctor! What do we k’yer for him? Hain’t we got all the fools in town on our side? And ain’t that a big enough majority in any town?

This isn't unique to Trump, religious leaders do this even today. Stealing the money from their followers. However, to see these people, that have seen time leave their community behind, after they put in their fair share... to embrace a guy who stole campaign money from them to 'stop the steal'... still? It is like watching a horror film.

 

[ZiprHead]

Out with the good vibes and in with the "get mean".

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz is urging his fellow Democrats to show they will fight for the working class. "We didn't just lose the working class. We lost the working class to a billionaire who gives tax cuts to other billionaires," Walz said. The governor says his party needs to be meaner. "I'm getting called out on this because I called Donald Trump a wannabe dictator. It's because he is. It's because he is. 'Oh, the governor's being mean and the governor's speaking out on that.' Maybe it's time for us to be a little meaner. Maybe it's time for us to be a little more fierce," he said.

News

Walz is a dullard.

I just happened to be listening to that speech. Walz got a tremendous response to that statement from the crowd.

If you think that makes him a dullard I sincerely wonder if you really have any idea what those insulting words you use to describe Democrats even mean. Frankly, it's almost all you ever do, call people names like you're still in the fifth grade and enjoy being the bully. Almost never actually intellectually addressing the content of the speech.

I'm sure that will earn me a hearty "Sure, Jan."

 

[Derec]

This is exactly my point: Americans want progress

Again, these polls are highly dependent on how the questions are asked.

and Democrats either just suck ass in communicating that what they offer is what people want, or their reps don't actually want those things.

Reps have to look at the whole picture. Not "wouldn't it be nice to have this shiny new thing" but look at advantages and disadvantages of policies, including how much they would cost. That's why AOC et al were so busy promoting MMT (either "Modern Monetary Theory" or "Magic Money Tree") that posited that since US debt is denominated in US dollars, the federal government can just spend the $60-100T of how much AOC's Green New Deal would cost by making the money printer go brrrr.
Or take "free college". There is afaik not a country in existence that combines unregulated access to tertiary education with paying for all of it. "Free college" people like to point to Germany, but don't want to change our tertiary education system to be more like the German model.

I am just floored by the fact that some of the Democrats in here really don't want those policies. The Overton window shifts because people let themselves be pushed, because those people on the left let themselves be pushed.

Some of the Democrats here are realistic about what is achievable. Not just electorally, but also as far as implementing it. It's not just flipping the switch, and lo, there is free universal healthcare and free college.

 

[Derec]

The fucking vibes didn't work, man, whaddaya want?

Who could have guessed that "you didn't fall out of a coconut tree", "Kamala is brat" and "Republicans are weird, man" would not be enough to win the election?