Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[pood]

In any case, it is perfectly ridiculous to compare the Gazan population, half of whom are children, which has no army and is being forcibly displaced and starved, to the massive Japanese war machine. How more ridiculous can you get? But as with Trump, I see there is no floor here.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your 2nd sentence is internally inconsistent: Gazans suffering because they are shields is a tacit admission of collective punishment. Pointing out your illogica claims has nothing to do with justifying terrorism by Muslims or anyone for that matter, so when you sling such bs, it makes your posts appear more like the ravings of a genocidal anti-Arab bigot than a reasoned defense of of Israel's actions.

No. Punishment implies intent. The intent is to harm Hamas, there is no intent on Israel's part to harm the civilians. (There clearly is an intent to harm them on Hamas' part but it's to use them as a weapon, generally not as punishment.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

No, you support collective punishment. No one here supports violent terrorists of any kind, including Netanyahu, whose violent terrorism you support.

There's no collective punishment.
Sorry to break it to you violent Muslim terrorists apologists but the Gazans are suffering because they are being used as human shields. No collective punishment.
Tom

No one here is a violent terrorist apologist, so you can knock off the slurs and slander right now.

Many on here claim that Hamas' actions are due to Israel's actions. Let's reframe that a bit: rape is due to women being immodest. (The Israeli action that's behind everything: existence.)

The Gazans are suffering because of an ongoing war in which war crimes are being committed.

Eternally insisting there are war crimes doesn't make it so. I've already pointed out how Geneva is being misapplied.

 

[laughing dog]

Your 2nd sentence is internally inconsistent: Gazans suffering because they are shields is a tacit admission of collective punishment. Pointing out your illogica claims has nothing to do with justifying terrorism by Muslims or anyone for that matter, so when you sling such bs, it makes your posts appear more like the ravings of a genocidal anti-Arab bigot than a reasoned defense of of Israel's actions.

No. Punishment implies intent. The intent is to harm Hamas, there is no intent on Israel's part to harm the civilians. (There clearly is an intent to harm them on Hamas' part but it's to use them as a weapon, generally not as punishment.)

Since there are less destructive methods to achieve their goal of punishing Hamas, the intent is revealed in their choices.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No one here supports violent terrorists of any kind, including Netanyahu, whose violent terrorism you support.

Then why is it so important to you that Israel is prevented from removing them from power?

You are assuming a premise not agreed upon: That Israel can remove violent terrorists from power by bombing Gaza.

They can't.

It's the exact opposite - by bombing Gaza, Israel entrenches the power of violent terrorists, and aids their recruitment drives.

Your question should be directed at yourself: Why is it so important to you that Israel be allowed to entrench the power of violent terrorists, by bombing Gaza?

The bombs can't remove them. The bombs do reduce their ability to act. Israel knows it can't accomplish more than that. You're engaging in streetlight thinking.

 

[Gospel]

You say Israel isn’t punishing civilians, just Hamas, but when over 2 million people suffer every day under policies deliberately maintained for years, intent starts to matter less than outcome.

Now, if the argument is that Hamas is at fault for forcing Israel into these actions, let’s be clear: Hamas bears responsibility for its atrocities and for putting civilians at risk. No one is denying that. But that doesn’t absolve Israel from accountability for its own choices.

When a state with overwhelming military power and full control over a population’s borders, food, water, and electricity chooses policies that systematically destroy infrastructure, block aid, and make daily life unlivable, that's not “being forced.” That’s a strategy.

Why would Israel do this? Because it serves multiple goals:

• It acts as deterrence through suffering, designed to turn the population against Hamas by crushing their quality of life.
• It plays well in Israeli domestic politics, where being “tough on Gaza” wins elections.
• It undermines any realistic two-state solution by keeping Gaza destabilized and separate from the West Bank.
• It sends a regional warning: cross us, and we’ll make your people pay.
• And finally, it's enabled by decades of dehumanization, where Gazans are treated as extensions of Hamas, not civilians with rights.

So yes, Hamas commits war crimes. But, If your justification is “Israel had to do this,” then you’re saying there’s no line, no amount of civilian suffering that would ever make you say “this is too far.” And that’s a dangerous place to be.

Accountability isn’t a zero-sum game. Hamas being evil doesn’t make every Israeli action righteous. Two wrongs don’t make one democracy.


Of course, some will take this as me accusing Israel of war crimes. I get it, it's hard for the intellectually challenged to tell the difference between sharing an opinion and stating a fact.

 

[TomC]

Since there are less destructive methods to achieve their goal of punishing Hamas, the intent is revealed in their choices.

I don't believe that is the goal, at least not anymore. The goal is to destroy the ability of GWM to launch violent attacks on Israeli civilians.
If you know of a better method than measured and precise military strikes, feel free to share.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has tried all sorts of military interventions, going as far as siege tactics. It has been 18 months since the massacre... and Hamas is still there.

We are saying the tactics AREN'T WORKING at releasing hostages and ending Hamas! Because there are still hostage and Hamas is still there.

You keep trying to turn a pragmatic and sober reflection of the conditions in the Israel/Gaza theater as anti-Semitism.

The better question is why are you supporting tactics that don't work at achieving the goals you allegedly support? It is almost like you want Hamas to perpetually remain in power.

Is Hamas currently capable of launching another 10/7? No--Israel's approach has reduced the threat. And they know that's all they can do. Hamas gets aggressive, they get smacked. Only this time Hamas hasn't been able to get the useful idiots to stop Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The tactics are working great if the goal isn't really obtaining the return of the hostages and ridding Gaza of Hamas.

I strongly suspect that is exactly the case.

The Israelis have given up on getting rid of Hamas. It wouldn't matter anyway since the GWM will just replace them with a similar group. And the surviving kidnap victims are not as important in the long run as all the other Israeli civilians who will be killed by Gazans.

I think Israel's goal now is the most complete destruction of Gazan military strike capabilities as possible. Israel will try to keep casualties down, but they cannot eliminate them in an environment where the GWM want to maximize them for publicity purposes.

Call me a cynical old curmudgeon if you want. It won't make me wrong.
Tom

On the world stage the cynical answer is almost always the right answer. Especially so in a situation like Gaza that favors the ruthless.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This week’s Economist reports that the gov’t of Israel admits arming a criminal gang in Gaza in the hope it will fight Hamas.

As Netanhsyu of all people should kniw how well the “enemy of my enemy” plays out.

Didn't they originally arm Hamas as well?

Funnelled cash to them.

Hamas used to not be the violent beast it is now. Israel encouraged a split in the Palestinians--and got it, Hamas and Fatah are now enemies. That keeps the violence down. But it does nothing about the flow of terror money, somebody would have taken it. Better to have Gaza being hammered than Gaza and the West Bank being hammered.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Subjecting someone to a punishment for an act done by someone else is by definition collective punishment.

But you've already accepted the Hamas narrative of "punishment".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel has tried all sorts of military interventions, going as far as siege tactics. It has been 18 months since the massacre... and Hamas is still there.

We are saying the tactics AREN'T WORKING at releasing hostages and ending Hamas! Because there are still hostage and Hamas is still there.

You keep trying to turn a pragmatic and sober reflection of the conditions in the Israel/Gaza theater as anti-Semitism.

The better question is why are you supporting tactics that don't work at achieving the goals you allegedly support? It is almost like you want Hamas to perpetually remain in power.

Is Hamas currently capable of launching another 10/7? No

Are they incapable? It was merely going through fence/barricades with rudimentary tools and guns. What they lack is surprise.

--Israel's approach has reduced the threat.

That'd be like saying Afghanistan and Iraq stopped more planes from flying into buildings.

 

[Gospel]

Since there are less destructive methods to achieve their goal of punishing Hamas, the intent is revealed in their choices.

I don't believe that is the goal, at least not anymore. The goal is to destroy the ability of GWM to launch violent attacks on Israeli civilians.
If you know of a better method than measured and precise military strikes, feel free to share.
Tom

This user likely has me on Ignore so this reply is not for the User.

It’s convenient to say “this is the only option” after exhausting military force becomes the norm. But historically, Israel hasn’t exactly explored every alternative in good faith, and when it has, it's often done so with constraints, preconditions, or political motives that made real progress nearly impossible.

Yes, Iran’s influence and Palestinian political dysfunction complicate things. No one is pretending Hamas, or even Fatah at times, has made diplomacy easy. But to say Israel had no other option is revisionist.

 

[TomC]

Speaking for myself, I've never used Ignore.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I was pleased when Trump pulled away from the Ukraine conflict, I'm not pleased as he seems committed to conflict in the Mid-East.

I'm never pleased when the US President does something at the behest of Putin. Trump appeased Putin because of personal interest, that is bad.

Oh good grief. "Peace is good except when done by evil orange man, then peace is bad."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Murdering barefoot shirtless men who are attempting to surrender is not self defense.

The problem is they faced many false surrenders. One soldier failed to recognize the real one amongst all the fakes.

Murdering a women holding the hand of a preschooler who is waving a white flag as they try to leave a dangerous area on foot is not self defense.

Agreed--but that one was so convenient. Right in front of the cameras, absolutely nothing going on that would have caused a sniper to shoot. Where they were was never suggested--but if they don't know where how can they know who?? And the lines were far enough away that a sniper shot would have been extremely difficult even if they had a line of sight. The whole thing makes a hell of a lot more sense as Hamas. And some of the reports on it said a burst of fire. Snipers don't fire bursts.

Murdering ambulance drivers and paramedics attempting to reach injured civilians is not self defense.

Well, if the ambulance drivers would quit ferrying combatants around they would get the protections traditionally given ambulances. But Israel has plenty of video of ambulances being used for military purposes and the Red Crescent has refused to condemn such actions. Geneva protections do not apply.

Kidnapping doctors and nurses from clinics and confining them in prisons that even the guards say routinely subject prisoners to torture is not self defense.

"Doctor" and "Hamas" are not mutually exclusive.

And I'm not aware of any verified claims of "routinely". Nor would it even matter--Geneva doesn't care. If you're fighting out of uniform (other than due to circumstances--somebody who has stripped for some reason and ends up in a combat situation without an opportunity to get dressed isn't considered out of uniform. I'm thinking of a picture from WWII--the guy stripped for a water rescue, then immediately manned a gun when back aborard) you are classed as "spies and saboteurs" and get no protections whatsoever.

Grabbing a wounded man off the street, tying him to the front of your vehicle and driving around worsening his injuries and inflicting new ones, is not self defense.

Nice framing. No, no war crime involved. He had been injured in combat. They weren't going to just let him go, they couldn't safely have him in the vehicle so they tied him to the vehicle.

War crimes are not self defense. But some folks try to use self defense as an excuse for them.

But you are taking Hamas' word for what are war crimes.

 

[Gospel]

Let me get this straight:

• A barefoot guy tries to surrender? "Oops, too many fake surrenders, so we shot him."
• A woman with a preschooler waving a white flag? "Could’ve been a threat. Snipers are just quirky like that."
• Ambulance workers getting killed? "Should’ve picked better passengers."
• Doctors getting kidnapped and tortured? "Well, they might be Hamas, so who cares."
• Wounded man tied to a vehicle? "Totally fine. Safer that way, for us."
• And when people point any of this out? "You're just quoting Hamas."

That isn’t a defense, it’s a highlight reel of how far people will go to justify anything, as long as the right side is doing it.

 

[laughing dog]

This week’s Economist reports that the gov’t of Israel admits arming a criminal gang in Gaza in the hope it will fight Hamas.

As Netanhsyu of all people should kniw how well the “enemy of my enemy” plays out.

Didn't they originally arm Hamas as well?

Funnelled cash to them.

Hamas used to not be the violent beast it is now. Israel encouraged a split in the Palestinians--and got it, Hamas and Fatah are now enemies. That keeps the violence down. But it does nothing about the flow of terror money, somebody would have taken it. Better to have Gaza being hammered than Gaza and the West Bank being hammered.

Wow. You really can come up with any excuse. Did it occur to you that without that money, Hamas may have never evolved to its current state?

 

[laughing dog]

I was pleased when Trump pulled away from the Ukraine conflict, I'm not pleased as he seems committed to conflict in the Mid-East.

I'm never pleased when the US President does something at the behest of Putin. Trump appeased Putin because of personal interest, that is bad.

Oh good grief. "Peace is good except when done by evil orange man, then peace is bad."

What peace do you see Trump bringing about?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Clearly it was necessary to check every Gazan entering Israel for bombs. Israelis do it whenever you enter a mall or any other crowded place. In Israel. Its not paranoia. It's necessary.

Everyone puts up with airline security. Because we are more ok with that than with accepting that planes randomly will go boom now and again.

Israelis are a very pragmatic people.

I actually do have a problem with the airline security, but that's because it's mostly theater that makes it a lot harder for the drug smugglers but reduces the protection against the actual bombs. And too many abuse their power. Off the top of my head:

1) The guy who visibly was disappointed when he discovered that we had a very long connection and didn't give a hoot about how long security took.

2) The notion that passengers can identify whose bag it is. What possible security exists when the passengers decide who gets the pat-down? If there had actually been anything nefarious in the bag the ability to specify whose bag it is means that there's no point whatsoever in doing the pat-down.

I have never experienced Israeli security but my understanding is that it's professionally done, not power-tripping losers who get to play bully.